Problem understanding "faith alone"

[Publisher]

Hi there! I think Catholics are speaking the truth here. They are saying you are saved by faith AND works.

Whereas some protestants say the FALSE doctrine of faith alone. Which is very clearly contradicted by scripture

Evidently not so “clearly contradicted”…if it was “clear”…there wouldn’t be a dispute…would there?

 

[rinnie]

Why does it say…“not of works lest any man should boast?”

We could do this all day…bottom line…you and I must stand before God and give account of ourselves…I’m planning on standing in perfect confidence before Him…not for what I have done…but for what Christ has done for me which I received from Him in faith…by his astounding grace and mercy.

Both of us will rely on His grace and mercy we’ve received in Christ at the Last Day…we will be judged according to our works…but our “works” pale to nothing in comparison of what Christ Jesus has done for us ALONE. Our salvation and sanctification IS His work in us…His grace and mercy are undeserved but given anyways because of what Christ has done…He became one of us to do for us what we could not do for ourselves.

Because if you are doing works and your heart is not sincere God knows this. When we do works we praise God for his grace given to us to want to do them.

We also praise him for the free will he gave us to choose him or reject him.

What does doing good works have to do with boasting about them. Like Christ said when we fast we should wash our face comb our hair etc. Good works are to be done in the and never mentioned.

If I see my neighbor is hungry and I go over and feed her, that is doing Gods good works. My heart tells me that is what I am supposed to do. But in the same token I should keep my mouth shut. If I tell everyone then that was not considered a good work. That is the difference.

It is by doing that work in silence and secret that I will be rewarded in heaven.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Just an observation from the peanut gallery… Catholics sure like to “proof text” when it suits purpose…just like Protestants…we have so much in common…yet we want so desparately to be separate from one another…now…back to our regular scheduled program.

Publisher,
I’m jumping back in for just a moment. Have company coming today.

You are right that we all use proof texts to some extent. Wikipedia gives a quick reference for passages used to defend sola fide and passages used to argue against sola fide. Link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_fide

I think we must consider the N.T. as a whole–the Bible as a whole, in considering the “faith alone” issue. I agree that we are saved by faith through the Grace of Christ.

The problem lies in the view that there is one point in time, in which we say a “sinner’s prayer” and are “saved;” and if we have prayed this prayer, we will never lose our salvation. That is a “reformed” doctrine that isn’t really consistent with the whole of Scripture or Christian Tradition. Salvation is a life long journey with Christ and there are many Biblical indications that we can lose our salvation.

We are called to pray, " Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." (Matthew 6:10). Christians are to serve God, yielding to Christ and living out His will now, while we are on earth. We are to live as “Kingdom people.”

Granted, it is only through Christ that we accomplish any good work according to His purpose; but we do have free will to either reject His work in us, or accept His work in us-- and live out His purpose for us in His Kingdom right here, right now, until we draw our last breath.

Peace,
Anna

 

[Publisher]

Because if you are doing works and your heart is not sincere God knows this. When we do works we praise God for his grace given to us to want to do them.

We also praise him for the free will he gave us to choose him or reject him.

What does doing good works have to do with boasting about them. Like Christ said when we fast we should wash our face comb our hair etc. Good works are to be done in the and never mentioned.

If I see my neighbor is hungry and I go over and feed her, that is doing Gods good works. My heart tells me that is what I am supposed to do. But in the same token I should keep my mouth shut. If I tell everyone then that was not considered a good work. That is the difference.

It is by doing that work in silence and secret that I will be rewarded in heaven.

Rinnie…we don’t seem to have much differences in this area…I see “good works” as the by product of a redeemed life…not the “cause” of it…we “love because He first loved us”…

We do good because it’s the right thing to do for those who have the indwelling Christ nature.

The difference…and I am guilty as the next…we “speak past one another”…You speak “catholic”…I speak “protestant”…we somehow have to understand one another’s languages…of course…this is just my opinion.

 

[AndrewJMason]

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead

 

[rinnie]

Why does it say all our righteousness is as filthy rags before God?

Publisher what does this have to do with faith without works being fruitless

This scripture just confirms that w/o the Cross we could not have received the Grace from God being free from ORIGINAL SIN. Christ paid the price to release us from Original Sin by making it possible for us to be free from it by our Baptism.

How in the world do you feel that this contracts scripture? IT ties in completely with scripture.

Jesus paid for all sin committed before our Baptism. Once we are baptised he gave us the Sacraments is we fall from grace by Confession. THis authority he gave to his Apostles.

Again what original sin got to do with actual sin?

 

[rinnie]

Why does it say…“not of works lest any man should boast?”

We could do this all day…bottom line…you and I must stand before God and give account of ourselves…I’m planning on standing in perfect confidence before Him…not for what I have done…but for what Christ has done for me which I received from Him in faith…by his astounding grace and mercy.

Both of us will rely on His grace and mercy we’ve received in Christ at the Last Day…we will be judged according to our works…but our “works” pale to nothing in comparison of what Christ Jesus has done for us ALONE. Our salvation and sanctification IS His work in us…His grace and mercy are undeserved but given anyways because of what Christ has done…He became one of us to do for us what we could not do for ourselves.

Then why are we judged on our works if our works cannot help us? While I agree that our works are because of Gods grace given to us do we not have the right to reject or accept this grace.

If not why is there sin if we do not play our own part in our Salvation by rejecting or accepting God?

Granted Christ freed us from Original Sin because we could not do it ourself. ANd he also left us himself in the Church by his Grace and sacraments if we do fall from Grace we can be forgiven. Authority he gave to his Apostles.

But back to the point if Christ DID IT ALL for us what are we being judged for and why? Your reasoning makes no sense.

 

[wisdomseeker]

It is the work of God…our salvation…it is not our work…but His and His alone In Christ Jesus…we become “new creations in Christ”…we have a new “nature” that can respond to God in faith…our “works” and our “obedience” IS the fruit of our faith…it IS the fruit of our salvation…not the CAUSE of it…our good works were prepared for us to do by God Himself…

Catholics wish to separate “faith” from “works” and say it is a combination of the two…Protestants do not see “works” as the means of our salvation…but as the products of our santification…we obey God BECAUSE of what He has done for us that we could not do four ourselves.

Salvation is the GIft of God alone…it cannot be earned…it cannot be “worked for”…that’s why Christ died…to do for us what we could not do for ourselves…we have salvation NOT because of what we do…but because of what HE HAS DONE FOR US.

If you find the tenents of the Catholic church best explains “faith and works” for your walk with God…wonderful…I share in your joy.

For me…I am humbled and awed by the astounding mercy and grace of God that He has shown for me in Christ Jesus…

Your view that “faith and works” are both necessary for God to begin to work in my life and sanctify it…to make me more like Christ…to walk in obedience as Jesus did to the Father’s will…leaves me “cold”…my faith is too small and weak…“Lord I believe…help my unbelief.”…"We see through a glass darkly…I have nothing to boast about concerning my salvation…any work I present to God and claim…“See I’ve done many good works…so I am saved.” doesn’t satisfy me…It is His work in me and His work alone that causes good works in my life…“not of works lest any man should boast”…It is His work and His work alone…both salvation and sanctification…my “new nature”…this divine nature I now posses is all from Him…my new nature, redeemed because of what Christ has done, causes me to seek to be obedient to Him…it satisfys me…“it is Christ in us, the hope of glory”…not me.

You must embrace those views which satisfy you in your walk with God…

St Paul says: Work out your salvation with trembling and fear.
It seems to me that the CC has gotten this right from the beginning. dont you think?

Jesus on the last day says, He will separate the goats from the sheep based on works, doesnt He?

who is doing the work?

If God is the One obligated to do everything and us nothing, how do you explain that so many turn away from God?

 

[Publisher]

Then why are we judged on our works if our works cannot help us? While I agree that our works are because of Gods grace given to us do we not have the right to reject or accept this grace.

If not why is there sin if we do not play our own part in our Salvation by rejecting or accepting God?

Granted Christ freed us from Original Sin because we could not do it ourself. ANd he also left us himself in the Church by his Grace and sacraments if we do fall from Grace we can be forgiven. Authority he gave to his Apostles.

But back to the point if Christ DID IT ALL for us what are we being judged for and why? Your reasoning makes no sense.

As I said…you’re speaking “Catholic”…I don’t know how to answer your questions speaking “Catholic”…I do not believe he established the Catholic church…nor do I believe water baptism cleanses from original sin…I don’t really believe in “original sin”…nor do I believe he gave “authority” to the apostles to establish an heirachal “church”…so you see the difficulty we have in communication.

Our works do not determine if we are “saved” of not…they DO determine our faithfulness as Christians and are used to determine our place in the Kingdom…whether we be a “door man” or the “president of a company”…but it takes place “in heaven”…we are THERE already by grace through faith redeemed in Christ…

Your “reasoning makes no sense” to me either…but that’s ok…I don’t have to understand in just your way…I seek to know God too…I just understand things differently…it is God’s work and His alone in Christ…I am the “canvas”…He is the Painter.

A passage Catholics often use as “proof text” of purgatory…is used by Protestants to seek to understand how works play…

"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.

If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are your’s;

Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are your’s; "

I look at Catholicism and scratch my head in wonder…but that’s why I’m not Catholic…it makes no sense to me in light of the Nature and Work of God in Christ.

23And ye are Christ’s; and Christ is God’s.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Why does it say…“not of works lest any man should boast?”

We could do this all day…bottom line…you and I must stand before God and give account of ourselves…I’m planning on standing in perfect confidence before Him…not for what I have done…but for what Christ has done for me which I received from Him in faith…by his astounding grace and mercy.

Both of us will rely on His grace and mercy we’ve received in Christ at the Last Day…we will be judged according to our works…but our “works” pale to nothing in comparison of what Christ Jesus has done for us ALONE. Our salvation and sanctification IS His work in us…His grace and mercy are undeserved but given anyways because of what Christ has done…He became one of us to do for us what we could not do for ourselves.

You seem to believe that the Bible contradicts itself. Is this true?
you must understand why St Paul says that and what is he referring to.

 

[Publisher]

You seem to believe that the Bible contradicts itself. Is this true?
you must understand why St Paul says that and what is he referring to.

I know YOU believe it does not…which is another difference as we “speak past one another.”

 

[rinnie]

As I said…you’re speaking “Catholic”…I don’t know how to answer your questions speaking “Catholic”…I do not believe he established the Catholic church…nor do I believe water baptism cleanses from original sin…I don’t really believe in “original sin”…nor do I believe he gave “authority” to the apostles to establish an heirachal “church”…so you see the difficulty we have in communication.

Our works do not determine if we are “saved” of not…they DO determine our faithfulness as Christians and are used to determine our place in the Kingdom…whether we be a “door man” or the “president of a company”…but it takes place “in heaven”…we are THERE already by grace through faith redeemed in Christ…

Your “reasoning makes no sense” to me either…but that’s ok…I don’t have to understand in just your way…I seek to know God too…I just understand things differently…it is God’s work and His alone in Christ…I am the “canvas”…He is the Painter.

A passage Catholics often use as “proof text” of purgatory…is used by Protestants to seek to understand how works play…

"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.

If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are your’s;

Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are your’s; "

I look at Catholicism and scratch my head in wonder…but that’s why I’m not Catholic…it makes no sense to me in light of the Nature and Work of God in Christ.

23And ye are Christ’s; and Christ is God’s.

Publisher you are talking from both sides of your mouth now. First you say we our judged for our works, but no matter what we all get into heaven.

Yeah right. What about hell you reject hell then correct? And tell me this. How in the world is the devil getting in then. Because as you said we are all saved correct?

This how can you explain the scripture nothing unclean enters into heaven. Hows it going to work Pub. how are you entering heaven with sin. Please tell me that.

I totally understand you completly deny the Catholic Church and the faith. But please show me how the devil is getting in or anyone evil and with sin according to your theory.

 

[rinnie]

And Purgatory. I would be very glad to explain this, but you must make another thread.

 

[rinnie]

Publisher where does a Catholic that does good works not give the glory to God and thank him for his good Grace to make it possible.

Where do we deny Christ and his grace in any of our works. Where in the Catholic faith do we take credit for our good works WITHOUT the GLORY of GOD to make it possible.

You are totally correct you certainly do not understand the Catholic faith we agree on this. But why do you think that because Jesus died on the Cross to make it possible for all of us to enter heaven mean that all will enter heaven?

Where does the bible or ST say that ALL will enter heaven rather they obey the word of God or not. Show it to me.

What did Peter say when asked how do I obtain Eternal Life. Did Peter not say REPENT and be BAPTISED. Is this not a work? Why do we have to do SOMETHING THEN?

You are making no sense Publisher, none what so ever.

Again why are we judged on our works? And by the way your theory of the door man etc makes no sense at all. If you die in the state of mortal sin you are not getting into heaven. You are going to hell.

 

[Publisher]

Publisher you are talking from both sides of your mouth now. First you say we our judged for our works, but no matter what we all get into heaven.

Yeah right. What about hell you reject hell then correct? And tell me this. How in the world is the devil getting in then. Because as you said we are all saved correct?

This how can you explain the scripture nothing unclean enters into heaven. Hows it going to work Pub. how are you entering heaven with sin. Please tell me that.

I totally understand you completly deny the Catholic Church and the faith. But please show me how the devil is getting in or anyone evil and with sin according to your theory.

With an indictment of “speaking out of both sides of my mouth”…I don’t see how we can discuss without such accusations being leveled at one another…do you?..usually when someone speaks “out of both sides of their mouth” they are being “decietful”…

Again…you are speaking past me…our works determine our “place in the Kingdom”…salvation is ours already because of our faith in Christ and what He has done for us…sanctification is an ongoing process of which good works…which have been prepared for us to do…are part of…Christ cleanses us from ALL sin’s guilt…we cannot “work our way into heaven”…we cannot “work our way into God’s grace”…it is a free gift which we cannot earn…it is freely bestowed upon us because of God’s grace through faith.

I’m not too concerned about a “mythical devil”…but then again…we are using “different languages”…

 

[rinnie]

I know YOU believe it does not…which is another difference as we “speak past one another.”

Then tie it together for us then according to your faith. We tied it in for you according to ours and it fit.

 

[rinnie]

With an indictment of “speaking out of both sides of my mouth”…I don’t see how we can discuss without such accusations being leveled at one another…do you?..usually when someone speaks “out of both sides of their mouth” they are being “decietful”…

Again…you are speaking past me…our works determine our “place in the Kingdom”…salvation is ours already because of our faith in Christ and what He has done for us…sanctification is an ongoing process of which good works…which have been prepared for us to do…are part of…Christ cleanses us from ALL sin’s guilt…we cannot “work our way into heaven”…we cannot “work our way into God’s grace”…it is a free gift which we cannot earn…it is freely bestowed upon us because of God’s grace through faith.

I’m not too concerned about a “mythical devil”…but then again…we are using “different languages”…

You know me better them that Pub I did not mean it, if you think I meant that I am sorry:blush:

But what I am saying is Christ did indeed earn our Salvation by his death on the Cross. When we are Baptised we are cleaned from All Sin.

What is Baptism to your Pub. Is it not having all sin washed away? But then what happens to sin that is committed after that? How are you forgiven? Must you REPENT? IS that not a WORK?

If you agree with that what happens if you REFUSE to Repent? Are you still getting into heaven?

 

[Publisher]

Then tie it together for us then according to your faith. We tied it in for you according to ours and it fit.

Our response to God in faith for what He has done for us in Christ “redeems” us from the Law of sin and death.

We respond to God NOW through our good works BECAUSE we now have a new nature…and the work of Christ in us through the work of the Holy Spirt moves us to obedience and good works…they are a product of salvation…not the cause of it…through our obedience to Christ…“you are my friends if you do as I have commanded”…“up to now I have called you servants…but now I call you friends”…we experience on going sanctification…

We will all stand before God and be judged according to our works…our “reward” is based on our works…not our salvation.

While I tend to be more of a universalist since I believe the work of God is to redeem humanity and creation…and this Work does not end with our deaths until we become perfect in Christ…this “heretical” belief in no way jeapordizes my stand before God…becasue it is Christ who keeps us …“I know whom I have believed and am persuaded THAT HE IS ABLE TO KEEP what I have committed to him against that day.”

Works are “what we do” BECAUSE of our redemption and the road to santification as well…our sins are forgiven to us because of what Christ did for us…He is our Righteousness and the fruits of our redemption is good works…if one does not live in obedience to Christ and have this “mind in you which was in Christ Jesus”…that is a different matter entirely…

Those who are redeemed are redeemed by God’s grace through faith…“and faith is a gift from God”…the work of the Holy Spirit is sanctification…which He accomplishes by a walk with Christ in good works.

Best I can do…perhaps others more knowledgeable than I can speak up…we are “saved” by His work in Christ and His work alone…good works will ALWAYS follow those who exercise true faith…

 

[Publisher]

You know me better them that Pub I did not mean it, if you think I meant that I am sorry:blush:

But what I am saying is Christ did indeed earn our Salvation by his death on the Cross. When we are Baptised we are cleaned from All Sin.

What is Baptism to your Pub. Is it not having all sin washed away? But then what happens to sin that is committed after that? How are you forgiven? Must you REPENT? IS that not a WORK?

If you agree with that what happens if you REFUSE to Repent? Are you still getting into heaven?

Yes, I do know you better…just wanted to point out such accusations as “speaking out of both sides of your mouth” does not facilitate communication…it is what is called a “conversation stopper”…

Yes…the One baptism that cleanses us is through the baptism of the Holy Spirit…“I baptize you with water, BUT THERE IS ONE coming that will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire…”

Repentance is our response to God’s grace…“We love Him because He first loved us”…

Who left the temple whole…the pharisee that gloried in his works…or the publican who cried…“God be merciful to me, a sinner.” ?

The ongoing work of the Holy Spirit makes us “sensitive” to our need to confess our sins and experience the ongoing cleansing of the Holy Spirit…it is a day by day response by us in faith to Him…by faith we “receive the promise” Hebrews 11 is a great read.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Yes, I do know you better…just wanted to point out such accusations as “speaking out of both sides of your mouth” does not facilitate communication…it is what is called a “conversation stopper”…

Yes…the One baptism that cleanses us is through the baptism of the Holy Spirit…“I baptize you with water, BUT THERE IS ONE coming that will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire…”

Repentance is our response to God’s grace…“We love Him because He first loved us”…

Who left the temple whole…the pharisee that gloried in his works…or the publican who cried…“God be merciful to me, a sinner.” ?

The ongoing work of the Holy Spirit makes us “sensitive” to our need to confess our sins and experience the ongoing cleansing of the Holy Spirit…it is a day by day response by us in faith to Him…by faith we “receive the promise” Hebrews 11 is a great read.

Yes, but you seem to imply that St Paul speaks out of both sides of the mouth. how do you explain this?