Problem understanding "faith alone"

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icamay

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I was discussing this issue with a friend who is a faithful Baptist. Even as a Prostestant, I’ve had a difficult time wrapping my mind around “faith alone”, so I asked her perspective. It is that once a person commits their life to God through baptism and proclamation, they are saved. The only end to this salvation is an outright denial of God’s grace. This means that everyone who does this goes directly to heaven.

So my question was, what about men like Dennis Rader (A.K.A. “BTK”), who viciously stalked, murdered, tortured, and killed over a dozen people? He was baptized and attended church every Sunday; he was a deacon in his church and I can’t find anywhere that says he’s renounced God. Is he going straight to heaven, just like someone with the virtue of Theresa of Calcutta? Yes, she says, because Jesus died for our sins on the cross.

I threw out the possibility that maybe someone of that calibur could use our prayers for mercy, and that this person may have to (at best) pay a price in purgatory to cleanse himself of his sins against God. No, she says, for that is assuming that we have to work for our mercy. I ask what keeps us bound to God’s laws, especially the 10 commandments, and she says that we do this because God says to.

I am very confused. Am I misunderstanding the perspective of “faith alone”? I don’t want to start an argument, I just want to understand this for future reference. Many of my family members are Baptists and, as my reconciliation with the Catholic church becomes known, I will be having this conversation regularly.
 
icamay said:
I was discussing this issue with a friend who is a faithful Baptist. Even as a Prostestant, I’ve had a difficult time wrapping my mind around “faith alone”, so I asked her perspective. It is that once a person commits their life to God through baptism and proclamation, they are saved. The only end to this salvation is an outright denial of God’s grace. This means that everyone who does this goes directly to heaven.

So my question was, what about men like Dennis Rader (A.K.A. “BTK”), who viciously stalked, murdered, tortured, and killed over a dozen people? He was baptized and attended church every Sunday; he was a deacon in his church and I can’t find anywhere that says he’s renounced God. Is he going straight to heaven, just like someone with the virtue of Theresa of Calcutta? Yes, she says, because Jesus died for our sins on the cross.

I threw out the possibility that maybe someone of that calibur could use our prayers for mercy, and that this person may have to (at best) pay a price in purgatory to cleanse himself of his sins against God. No, she says, for that is assuming that we have to work for our mercy. I ask what keeps us bound to God’s laws, especially the 10 commandments, and she says that we do this because God says to.

I am very confused. Am I misunderstanding the perspective of “faith alone”? I don’t want to start an argument, I just want to understand this for future reference. Many of my family members are Baptists and, as my reconciliation with the Catholic church becomes known, I will be having this conversation regularly.
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Purgatory would not be a case of working for mercy. The term “work for mercy” implies a choice and is usually associated with doing good works or something voluntary. Purgatory would not be a choice, God wouldn’t ask you if you want to go to purgatory. What “work” would a person be doing in purgatory anyway?

A lot of the “zero works” theology is based on the notion that after accepting Christ you’re forgiven for all sins, including those you have not yet commited. There is a moral dilemma here because I’ve heard non Catholics abuse this notion when discussing their particular sin…“it doesn’t matter because I’m already forgiven.” This is something I’ve never heard from a Catholic.
 
One of the reasons I love the Letter of James is his directness: no messing around:

Check his writing in Chapter 2, Verses 14-18.

Do Baptists believe in the Bible? Here is the answer.
 
A better argument would be that BTK didn’t actually have true faith, because someone with true faith wouldn’t willingly violate God’s commandments. The idea is that faith, and I mean real faith, brings with it a desire to follow God’s commandments and do good deeds, and BTK had neither.

Basically, it’s that you’re saved by faith, and that faith is evidenced by good works. Without good works, the faith probably isn’t real.
 
ConsciousCoward said:
A better argument would be that BTK didn’t actually have true faith, because someone with true faith wouldn’t willingly violate God’s commandments. The idea is that faith, and I mean real faith, brings with it a desire to follow God’s commandments and do good deeds, and BTK had neither.

Basically, it’s that you’re saved by faith, and that faith is evidenced by good works. Without good works, the faith probably isn’t real.
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So if one doesn’t attend church on Sunday or curses at one’s mother or father in anger, they don’t have true faith? Both of these violate God’s commandments.
 
ConsciousCoward said:
A better argument would be that BTK didn’t actually have true faith, because someone with true faith wouldn’t willingly violate God’s commandments. The idea is that faith, and I mean real faith, brings with it a desire to follow God’s commandments and do good deeds, and BTK had neither.

Basically, it’s that you’re saved by faith, and that faith is evidenced by good works. Without good works, the faith probably isn’t real.
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In the case of BTK, that might be good argument. The general problem with that argument however is that it’s so often abused. Everytime someone does something that another Christian believes is wrong, it’s a case of, “well, I guess he never had true faith to begin with because he disagrees with me, so I guess he’s not really saved after all” And in the world of private interpretation, what those wrong things actually are can vary infinitely from one Christian to another.

This is how those who profess OSAS maintain way of getting around it…it a person backslides too much they can just say he was never really saved to begin with. It’s also an offhand way of maintaining the presumed ability to judge other people’s salvation.

Another common, related abuse comes up in theological arguments in which any disagreement can be taken to mean that the disagreeing party is only disagreeing because they don’t have the guidance of the Holy Spirit, which the other party naturally does have. Once you convince yourself that the disagreeing party lacks the Holy Spirit, you can then start claiming that since they don’t have the Holy Spirit, they probably aren’t even saved to begin with.
 
icamay said:
I was discussing this issue with a friend who is a faithful Baptist. Even as a Prostestant, I’ve had a difficult time wrapping my mind around “faith alone”, so I asked her perspective. It is that once a person commits their life to God through baptism and proclamation, they are saved. The only end to this salvation is an outright denial of God’s grace. This means that everyone who does this goes directly to heaven.

I am very confused. Am I misunderstanding the perspective of “faith alone”? I don’t want to start an argument, I just want to understand this for future reference. Many of my family members are Baptists and, as my reconciliation with the Catholic church becomes known, I will be having this conversation regularly.
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Here, I hope, are some links to help you:

vivacatholic.wordpress.com/2009/02/17/infused-righteousness-versus-imputed-righteousness-which-one-entitles-us-to-enter-heaven/

Excerpt:

There is still on-going discussion on infused righteousness (Catholic position) and imputed righteousness (Protestant/Reformer position).

Imputed righteousness means we use Christ’ righteousness accepted by faith alone to cover our unrighteousness – in other words we do not contribute anything and we are declared righteous. It is like Christ covers our dirty robe (the dirt represents our sins) with his spotless robe and He needs to do it only once. Infused righteousness, on the other hand, means God through Christ helps us to become righteous. Note that the source of righteousness is God, not us, yet the outcome of justification is we become righteous. Using similar analogy of dirty robe representing our sin, in infused righteousness God through Christ helps us to clean our dirty robe. This needs our cooperation and it is an on-going process. Our dirty robe is first washed clean through (Sacrament of) Baptism. Whenever we make it dirty again through sinning, God through Christ helps us to clean it through (Sacrament of) Reconciliation. When we die with our robe still stained with venial sin then purgatory will cleanse it. Imputed righteousness concept cannot go inline with purgatory – purgatory makes what Christ did (covering our dirty robe) insufficient.

Which righteousness entitles us to enter heaven? In Matthew 25:31-46 the sheep are welcomed into heaven while the goats are sent to hell Verse 46 boldly says that the righteous will go to eternal life. Are they declared righteous or made righteous (hence are righteous)? Verses 35 and 36 tell us that they did righteous acts, i.e. they did not use Christ’ righteousness to cover their unrighteousness or to make their unrighteous things appear righteous (before God). 1 John 3:8 defines righteousness as “He who does right is righteous, as he [Christ] is righteous”. Certainly to believe in Christ is one act that leads to righteousness – but it is not the only one. The phrase “He who does right” implies our cooperation. The goats are condemned to hell because they did not do righteous acts or they are not unrighteous (1 Corinthians 6:9). They are not declared unrighteous but they are indeed unrighteous.

The reason why Protestants are against infused righteousness is they view it as work-based justification, in contradiction to their concept of faith alone justification. Catholics do not believe in working on or earning our justification either. God’s Grace always first moves us to do righteous acts, be they believe in Christ, love one another, repenting etc. This means without His Grace we can neither do them nor even have the initiative to do them. Protestants, while insist on justification by faith alone, at the end of the day have to admit that faith that justifies is not alone as what Rev. Sears, quoting from Calvin, wrote below (emphasis added):

Calvin said, “When we say a man is justified by faith alone, we do not fancy a faith devoid of charity, but we mean that faith alone is the cause of justification.” Again Calvin makes this remarkable statement “I wish the reader to understand that as often as we mention Faith alone in this question, we are not thinking of a dead faith, which worketh not by love, but holding faith to be the only cause of justification. It is therefore faith alone which justifies, and yet the faith which justifies is not alone.”
 
icamay said:
I was discussing this issue with a friend who is a faithful Baptist. Even as a Prostestant, I’ve had a difficult time wrapping my mind around “faith alone”, so I asked her perspective. It is that once a person commits their life to God through baptism and proclamation, they are saved. The only end to this salvation is an outright denial of God’s grace. This means that everyone who does this goes directly to heaven.

known, I will be having this conversation regularly.
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Additional resource: Go the journal on “Justification and Salvation”

chnetwork.org/journals/justification/justificationbyfaith.html

excerpt:

Justification By Faith

By Dr. William Marshner

The Catholic Church holds that faith in Jesus Christ is not saving faith unless it bears fruit in good works. Vice-versa, the Church holds that such works are so intimately joined to faith, that, without them, it is impossible for the believer to grow or persevere in his faith.1 In this way, good works are necessary for salvation.

Most Protestants are uncomfortable with such a statement. Without denying the importance of good works, Protestants tend to see them as symptoms of the one thing necessary rather than as necessities in their own right. For Luther, good works were merely symptoms of confident faith; for Calvin, they were symptoms of irresistible grace. Few Protestants today are familiar with the details of Luther’s or Calvin’s personal thought; what they have inherited from these great forebearers is rather a general orientation, whose core is the conviction that according to St. Paul, we are justified sofa fide (by faith alone) or sola gratia (by grace alone), either formula being understood to exclude any essential role of good works.

Stages of Justification

Catholic and Protestant views on the respective roles of grace, faith and works cannot be compared meaningfully, unless one specifies what stage of the justificational process one is talking about. In the preparatory stage, for instance, in which prevenient graces first stir a person towards an interest in religious truth, towards repentance, and towards faith, Catholics, Lutherans and Calvinists are at one in saying "sola gratia."2

A second stage is the very transition from death to life, which is the first stage of justification proper. Here the parties are at one in saying “sola fide,” though they seem to mean different things by it. Protestants tend to mean that, at this stage, by the grace of God, man’s act of faith is the sole act required of him; Catholics mean that faith is the beginning, foundation and root of all justification, since only faith makes possible the acts of hope and charity (i.e. love-for-God) which are also required.3 However, since most Protestants have a broad notion of the act of faith, whereby it includes elements of hope and love, it is often hard to tell how far the difference on this point is real and how far it is a matter of words.

Finally, however, there comes a third stage, that of actual Christian life, with its problems of growth and perseverance. The man justified by faith is called to “walk” with God, to progress in holiness. It is at this stage that the parties sharply diverge. Catholics affirm, and Protestants strenuously deny, that the born-again Christian’s good works merit for him the increase of grace and of the Christian virtues. As a result, Protestant piety has no obvious place for the self-sacrifices, fasts, and states of perfection which are prominent features of Catholic piety.

At each stage, neither the apparent agreements nor the apparent disagreements can be understood without looking at certain metaphysical quarrels, the chief of which is over the very existence of what Catholics call “grace.”
 
The problem with faith alone… As I went down that path I became a worse person. So I know by personal experience that the concept is a lie.
 
Mention of Dennis Rader brings this to a personal level for us ELCA Lutherans. I have been council president, like Dennis. I have been an usher, like Dennis. I am a sinner, like Dennis. For what he did while accomplishing his foul deeds was profoundly disturbing to his congregation. His pastor published a journal of his continued contact with Dennis after his conviction. We continue to pray for him, as we do for all who have fallen from grace.

We can use him as an example of the way we view evil in the world. A number of church leaders of various denominations have called for prayer and forgiveness for Osama bin Laden. The Catholic position on the death penalty is based on the idea of God being able and willing to forgive even the most grievous sin. There is a converse to this, that despite the way the world views our deeds, they are as befouled rags before the glory of God. The Hebrew is very blunt, it refers to rags befouled by dog excrement. I don’t know if that is the foulest thing that Hebrews could think of but it has to be high on the list.

The book of Hebrews was not thought highly of by Martin Luther, but it contains a statement that is very important to the understanding of sola fide.

ESV: Hebrews Chapter 10

[31] It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

The context of the verse is that there is no sacrifice we can make to atone for our sins, known or unknown, willful or inadvertent. Jesus has already made that sacrifice. This is so simple that it beggars the mind to grasp it.
 
JamestheOlder said:
One of the reasons I love the Letter of James is his directness: no messing around:

Check his writing in Chapter 2, Verses 14-18.

Do Baptists believe in the Bible? Here is the answer.
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icamay said:
I was discussing this issue with a friend who is a faithful Baptist. Even as a Prostestant, I’ve had a difficult time wrapping my mind around “faith alone”, so I asked her perspective. It is that once a person commits their life to God through baptism and proclamation, they are saved. The only end to this salvation is an outright denial of God’s grace. This means that everyone who does this goes directly to heaven.

So my question was, what about men like Dennis Rader (A.K.A. “BTK”), who viciously stalked, murdered, tortured, and killed over a dozen people? He was baptized and attended church every Sunday; he was a deacon in his church and I can’t find anywhere that says he’s renounced God. Is he going straight to heaven, just like someone with the virtue of Theresa of Calcutta? Yes, she says, because Jesus died for our sins on the cross.

I threw out the possibility that maybe someone of that calibur could use our prayers for mercy, and that this person may have to (at best) pay a price in purgatory to cleanse himself of his sins against God. No, she says, for that is assuming that we have to work for our mercy. I ask what keeps us bound to God’s laws, especially the 10 commandments, and she says that we do this because God says to.

I am very confused. Am I misunderstanding the perspective of “faith alone”? I don’t want to start an argument, I just want to understand this for future reference. Many of my family members are Baptists and, as my reconciliation with the Catholic church becomes known, I will be having this conversation regularly.
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icamay,
I grew up in the Southern Baptist Church and the “faith alone” issue is one of many reasons I left the Baptist Church.

Salvation by faith alone is inconsistent with Holy Scripture when taken as a whole. Sometimes beliefs are justified by grouping certain Scriptures together. Using this technique, one can prove almost anything.

JamestheOlder already pointed out the fact that the Book of James, contradicts the faith alone argument.

Remember, Martin Luther had a rather low opinion of the Book of James (and other Books as well); and at one point wanted to remove these questionable Books, including James. He also added the word “alone” in his German Bible— so that Romans 3:28 would read, “justified by faith alone, apart from the works of the Law.”

Ironically, the phrase “faith alone” only appears in one passage of the N.T. and it says the opposite of what Luther claimed:

James 2: 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Wikipedia is a quick source for this information: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_fide

Peace,
Anna
 
Faith alone is just that…nobody but an individual…

The Judeo Christian heritage is that God’s revelation comes to a gathering of people, provides continuity of the message to the people, and is accountable to the people to determine whether the prophet – or faith – bear truth.

The next dimension of salvation history occurred at Pentecost…the Holy Spirit and how He would work through Christ’s Church. The gospels, the Acts, epistles, and Revelations are all addressed now to the believers in Christ.
 
Faith alone…not of works…we are justified before God BECAUSE of His single Soverign act of Mercy through Christ’s SOLITARY work upon the cross which redeems us…not our works…works are a by product of faith and the road toward sanctification…those works DO NOT contribute to God’s Solitary act in Jesus Christ on the cross…“If we confess our sins **he is faithful and just ** to forgive us our sins and (continue to) CLEANSE us from all unrighteousness”…

I do not know WHEN I would deny the Mercy of God to someone…That is God’s realm…I am secure in Christ Jesus by an act of faith in His Finished work upon the cross for the bestowal of His Infinite Grace which works within us toward good works…the whole “faith vs works” for me is a matter of what do I trust in…Faith in God from whom all mercy flows…or faith in my works…which are just by products of the grace already bestowed upon me…not by my works but His alone…He did for us…for me…what I could not do for myself…

As a Friend I believe in the “perfectiblilty of man”…through faith…we are citizens of a different kingdom…God preserves us in His mercy…is that mercy ever withdrawn in certainty by us? I don’t think so…only God knows the heart…I am not able to determine when God’s grace and mercy has been withdrawn from another…it’s not my job…MY JOB is to RESPOND in mercy, love and kindness…“against which there is no law”…
 
Consider the date …on the evening of the Resurrection of the Lord, He appeared to the apostles…and there He gave them the power to forgive sins…in Him, and that the worship of Christ, from the Last Supper…that there be no more bloody sacrifice after Christ’s death and resurrection for the atonement of sins…that worship now become the Last Supper as early Christians named it…liturgy now a memorial.

The Daily Sacrifice does not require any mortal death, no more physical death of atonement by Christ. But it is our daily sins and that of the world that the Daily Sacrifice of the Mass atone for sin. The Mass is the sacramental sacrifice for our sins.

Likewise, the sacrament of confession is instituted with Christ and His apostles as the foundation. If confession were not necessary through the sacrament of the priesthood, Christ would not have needed to give the apostles authority.

We have to look at the life of Christ, His words, and setting up the institution of His Church.

Personal interpretation always leads to symbolism and subsequently fracture.
 
Publisher said:
Faith alone…not of works…we are justified before God BECAUSE of His single Soverign act of Mercy …
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You just dont get it do you. “Faith alone” only appears once in the Bible where it explicitly states you are NOT saved by faith alone.

Have a read of Matthew 25:31-46 The Parable of the Sheep and the Goats.

Jesus explains at length in this parable salavtion. And it is clear you are saved according to works, and judged according to works.

In fact on this passage alone, you are saved solely on works even if you are not a Christian. 🙂

However taking the Bible as a whole you are saved on both faith and works. GB
 
Dave_B said:
You just dont get it do you. “Faith alone” only appears once in the Bible where it explicitly states you are NOT saved by faith alone.

Have a read of Matthew 25:31-46 The Parable of the Sheep and the Goats.

Jesus explains at length in this parable salavtion. And it is clear you are saved according to works, and judged according to works.

In fact on this passage alone, you are saved solely on works even if you are not a Christian. 🙂

However taking the Bible as a whole you are saved on both faith and works. GB
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No friend…I ‘get it’…it is God’s Soverign Single act of Grace and Mercy in Christ by which we are reconciled to Him by faith…now by our works…we can NEVER do enough to merit God’s grace or forgiveness…it is a free gift bestowed by Him BECAUSE of the work of Christ…not by my works of righteousness…but HIs Single work alone…“lest any should boast”.

I believe works are important…

On a side note…no English phrase or word appears in the original languages…the word choices used to seek to convey meaning of the original languages…“faith alone” no where appears in scripture…but then neither does “grace” “mercy” or any other word sequence in English you may wish to quote…all we have are translations…no one even claimed that “faith alone” was “mentioned” in scripture…so we are saved by God’s astounding grace by faith…not of works…works are the by product of our salvation…the “proof” so to speak…works are necessary for our sanctification and our continued walk with God…the works He “predestined” us to do.

I don’t think you and I disagree on the subject…but we are not saved…our salvation freely bestowed by God in Christ is His work and His alone…we respond in faith to His grace…we do not “work” for HIs favor…His favor…His grace is totally unmerrited in every way…our “righteousness is as filthy rags” compared to His Work the has been done FOR US ON OUR BEHALF BY CHRIST JESUS.
 
Publisher said:
No friend…I ‘get it’…
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Apologies if I came across as prickly. I get annoyed on this issue. As at the church I attend, the vicar preaches about faith alone. “You are saved by faith alone, and your good works count for nothing.” Which I find annoying as its a doctrine I disagree with. And it contradicts much of scripture, for example in revelation you are judged “according to what you have done”. By according to some they think you say the words and your salvation is assured. Which I find a perverse interpretation of the gospel message. GB
 
Publisher said:
No friend…I ‘get it’…it is God’s Soverign Single act of Grace and Mercy in Christ by which we are reconciled to Him by faith…now by our works…we can NEVER do enough to merit God’s grace or forgiveness…it is a free gift bestowed by Him BECAUSE of the work of Christ…not by my works of righteousness…but HIs Single work alone…“lest any should boast”.

I believe works are important…

On a side note…no English phrase or word appears in the original languages…the word choices used to seek to convey meaning of the original languages…“faith alone” no where appears in scripture…but then neither does “grace” “mercy” or any other word sequence in English you may wish to quote…all we have are translations…no one even claimed that “faith alone” was “mentioned” in scripture…so we are saved by God’s astounding grace by faith…not of works…works are the by product of our salvation…the “proof” so to speak…works are necessary for our sanctification and our continued walk with God…the works He “predestined” us to do.

I don’t think you and I disagree on the subject…but we are not saved…our salvation freely bestowed by God in Christ is His work and His alone…we respond in faith to His grace…we do not “work” for HIs favor…His favor…His grace is totally unmerrited in every way…our “righteousness is as filthy rags” compared to His Work the has been done FOR US ON OUR BEHALF BY CHRIST JESUS.
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Just asking… are you saying that as long as I have faith, faith alone then I can ignore the works that can surly lead me to either heaven or hell?

Matthew 25: 31-46

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

‘ For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’

Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’

And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’

Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’

Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’

He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
 
Faith Alone is a Sola Scriptura protestant drum role which has been beat to death and constantly in error I might add.

Especially when “works” are connected to Catholic. To what purpose, and by what definition?

Most Christian traditions that trace their theologies and doctrines from the Protestant Reformation are known for their convictions that the truths of the Christian faith are found in Sola Scriptura, or Scripture alone, and that we are justified sola fide, or by “faith alone.” Ironically, the expression “faith alone” only appears once in the Bible—in James 2:24—where it is rejected as a description of how we are justified.

Here’s a good link for that debate…👍 😃

chnetwork.org/journals/justification/justify_8.htm
 
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