Problem with apologetics

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I have noticed people on this site asking questions like “how do i refute this argument?”

Shouldn’t the emphasis be placed on understanding the concepts involved rather then on how to win an argument? If you don’t know how to win an argument or feel like someone else’s points are better than yours then that probably means that either you are just wrong, or you don’t really understand all the facts, or you don’t understand the conceptual issues. I think the best choice at that point is to try to study and increase your understanding, rather then try to refute the other side using rhetoric, like some kind of lawyer who wants to win the trial. I am not directing this at anyone in particular, and just want to create some discussion about this. Not trying to be oppositional.
 
good points…but for some people starting out as “how do i refute this…” is how they learn. And at some point you can study and read and give PERSONAL opinion, but at some point you need to get off the diving board and into the fray. (bad analogy…but you know what I mean).

sometimes it’s just a person’s journey to EFFECTIVE apologetics. And we are all at different places in that journey.
 
Apologia = an explanation. We do oftentimes lapse into argumentation from explanation. Before the split in the Church, evangelizing was much simpler. God or not. Christ or not. Church or not. As with ice cream, we now have 31,000 flavors of Christianity - which naturally becomes a competition for souls and begins the arguments. It’s a long shot from how the Gospel was originally proclaimed.
 
The Church has been around for 2,000 years. Chances are, after dealing with billions of people over long periods of time, they have heard every possible argument and have answers. The arguments presented by Protestants/atheists/teenagers/secularists are not new. (I just laugh when some kid comes on a radio show and thinks he can “take down” the 2,000-year-old faith in just a few minutes’ call.)

Some people just get caught up in things or don’t know to respond, and coming on here gives them the chance to learn more about the faith and WHY the Church teaches the way She does.
 
I have noticed people on this site asking questions like “how do i refute this argument?”

Shouldn’t the emphasis be placed on understanding the concepts involved rather then on how to win an argument? If you don’t know how to win an argument or feel like someone else’s points are better than yours then that probably means that either you are just wrong, or you don’t really understand all the facts, or you don’t understand the conceptual issues. I think the best choice at that point is to try to study and increase your understanding, rather then try to refute the other side using rhetoric, like some kind of lawyer who wants to win the trial. I am not directing this at anyone in particular, and just want to create some discussion about this. Not trying to be oppositional.
There is a tendency by many orthodox Catholics to approach faith with an almost “sola scriptura” mentality. I don’t mean that they are using Scripture. I mean that they are looking at an argument and they go looking for a citation in scripture, the Fathers, or the writings of the Magisterium to quiet the other person.

There are several problems with this approach and that’s why Protestantism has been such a dismal experiment. If you don’t understand the concept driving the other side, you can certainly provide the wrong answer, even when the words match up. Worse, if you don’t understand the concept behind the writing that you’re using, you are quoating out of context.

Context has several layers:
  1. What is the question behind the question?
  2. What is the person’s understanding of the question?
  3. What is the person’s motivation for asking the question?
  4. What is my motivation for dignifying the question with a response?
  5. What is the thinking of the speaker or writer that I’m quoting?
  6. What kind of statement is he making: commentary, doctrinal, spiritual, legal, rhetorical?
  7. Finally, does the question merit a response?
Once I have the answers to these questions, then I can offer a response that is objective. Otherwise, I’m speaking from my perspective and my understanding or my preference. Speaking from one’s preference can be dangerous. Once preference may not be the teaching of the Church, even when one’s preference is good.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Bro JR makes a good point. I find that having spent over 30 years among them I can usually discern what they are saying from the outset and so I cut to the chase sometimes. Even so…you have to make it a teaching moment if you can. The hardest discernment is whether the person is even open to hearing us as opposed to just taking a shot at proselytizing a Catholic away from his faith.

When that happens, I go into a sort of counter-evangelism mode designed to get them to at least do their own homework and leave them knowing that I am praying for their conversion. After all…being Catholic is not as easy as the N-C faiths and if I didn’t believe 100% that it was the original. New Testament, “full gospel” (read that as , “the fullness of truth”) Christian faith then I wouldn’t be Catholic to begin with. :rolleyes:

However, one thing that is especially hard for most of us is the way in which various N-Cs approach us.

I hope that some day these would be evangelists will come to understand that when we tell them we are Catholic, we are unequivocally stating that we are Christians and begin to dialog with us accordingly. Some already do…most do not.

When others aggressively approach us about our faith, it can be disconcerting (to say the least) and if they are like me, getting the answers to those approaches just fires me to “Carefully study to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.” (2nd Timothy 2:15 Notice too that St. Paul nowhere says that that means just the Bible.👍) and so…I grow in my faith.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum
 
This thread is very interesting because it explains why converts from Protestantism sometimes seem to want very high-level citations for information, and this tendency has crept into the thinking of some of the less-well-catechized among us. Sometimes the Church knows something because of the way everything around it is or it would be disruptive to other aspects if it were different, even tho it itself hasn’t been written down.

But I think that Brother JR’s comments are also good, because knowing more about the setting of a question is important. One non-Catholic can ask a question honestly and another can ask the exact same question as an attack. Some are seeking, others have as their main goal to refute thoroughly and without regard to logic anything Catholic in which they do not believe. Hence, I once saw a Protestant say one thing refute one person and the exact opposite in a separate discussion.

Which is why, in a way, I try to stay away from the winner-takes-all kind of apologetics and stick with the explaining kind.
 
In my experience, the happiest Catholics are the most obedient. If only all could experience the inner peace of the contemplatives. Certainly it is possible, but the laity must abandon themselves to God with increasing fervency to approach it, I would think. I have observed some dissident Catholics displaying some of the unsettled protestant characteristics, which manifests itself in a strong desire to change theology. In the case of protestants, they simply went their own way, whereas dissident Catholics seek to impose their will upon the universal Church. Both can suffer from a certain lack of inner peace; which true discipleship brings - the reassurance that God is in charge and has set in place the theology, practices and persons which lead most directly to Him. Another thing that strikes me is that those who demand scripture citations suffer from an incompletely formed faith. Are they modern day Thomases, who will not believe unless and until they see written proof?
 
I have noticed people on this site asking questions like “how do i refute this argument?”

Shouldn’t the emphasis be placed on understanding the concepts involved rather then on how to win an argument? If you don’t know how to win an argument or feel like someone else’s points are better than yours then that probably means that either you are just wrong, or you don’t really understand all the facts, or you don’t understand the conceptual issues. I think the best choice at that point is to try to study and increase your understanding, rather then try to refute the other side using rhetoric, like some kind of lawyer who wants to win the trial. I am not directing this at anyone in particular, and just want to create some discussion about this. Not trying to be oppositional.
This thread looks like an excellent continuation of this previous thread. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=485927

Perhaps someone could bring over some of the applicable points and combine
them with what is here.
 
In my experience, the happiest Catholics are the most obedient. If only all could experience the inner peace of the contemplatives. Certainly it is possible, but the laity must abandon themselves to God with increasing fervency to approach it, I would think. I have observed some dissident Catholics displaying some of the unsettled protestant characteristics, which manifests itself in a strong desire to change theology. In the case of protestants, they simply went their own way, whereas dissident Catholics seek to impose their will upon the universal Church. Both can suffer from a certain lack of inner peace; which true discipleship brings - the reassurance that God is in charge and has set in place the theology, practices and persons which lead most directly to Him. Another thing that strikes me is that those who demand scripture citations suffer from an incompletely formed faith. Are they modern day Thomases, who will not believe unless and until they see written proof?
This says a lot to my formerly Baptist soul. I am the happiest of Catholics because I am obedient. I believe it all, hook, line and sinker and lately just feel SUPERglued to the Holy Father, the Magisterium (sp? – i need caffeine), TTTTTradition, and everything Catholic. And I agree, there can be a tendency by prior-protestants to “demand scripture citations” suffering “from an incompletely formed faith.” I come to the Church through faith, that God has sustained the Church from error in doctrine and morals, and will sustain me in His Church. It’s a very very safe and happy place to rest…and then JUMP up to teach!

My best friend, Paul to my Timothy-ette, previous RCIA leader, has 35 plus years teaching experience and has agreed to mentor me. I can’t think CA enough for all the information and good solid instruction and spiritual helps I’ve been privileged to read. I loved JR education’s response. Printing it out (when printer is healed) and putting it in the front of my binder. These are things always to keep in mind when being challenged.
 
You have committed two logical errors: you have equated “refute this argument” with “win an argument”; in addition, you have assumed that seeking to “refute an argument” is contrary to “understanding the concepts involved”. In reality, refuting an argument involves understanding the concepts involved so that those which are erroneous can be shown to be so.

If you are saying that some are merely seeking to win an argument and not in sharing the Truth of our faith, then I agree with you. Refuting and argument is a specific, legitimate apologetic endeavor. Winning an argument is a subjective, non-apologetic endeavor which does not seek the truth or the benefit of the other person involved.

Blessings!
These comments are directed to you since you have been on CAF for a long time and know what is happening more than I think I do.

I’ve seen plenty of posts with good arguments on behalf of Catholicism, so I am not discussing content per se. What I am not seeing is something like good strategy based on who the other person is and how she or he thinks.

When I first landed on CAF, there was a true master and it was a joy to watch how he replied to a poster through a series of exchanges. And there have been others. But it seems that at times, a poster gets thrown off base and apparently she or he doesn’t have a plan in mind as to how to handle it. A lot of times, this is where the “shouting” or Scripture duels come in.

Unfortunately, I have no clue how to explain strategy. Maybe strategy is not the correct word for relationships between well-meaning people. It is just my gut instinct that having a good argument is not enough at times.

Blessings,
granny

“The shepherds sing; and shall I silent be?”
from the poem “Christmas” by George Herbert
 
We need to be careful not to fall into skepticism. I just came from reading another thread about St. Francis of Assisi’s miracles. I was interesting, because I posted as a Franciscan, which I am. I explained how we know what we know about the miracles. One of the means, probably the most important and most informative, is the oral tradition.

Unlike a Teresa of Jesus, no one asked St. Francis to write an autobiography, to keep a journal and no one bothered to do it for him. This was not commonly done in the 1200s, when many people did not know how to read and write, though Francis actually knew how to read and write in three languages; but people around him did not. So he did not write much. We know a lot about him by oral tradition that was later written by others who knew him personally or knew those who knew him, much like we know about Jesus, through second and third-hand narratives.

OK, the point is that there was a poster who wanted documentation, written by St. Francis himself, in order to believe that he had worked miracles during his life. In the absence of such documentation, this particular person was ready to throw the alleged miracles out the window. This is the danger to which I am referring. When one becomes such a skeptic that one requires what I called notarized documents on every piece of information, one runs the risk of missing a wealth of knowledge that is commonly handed down through tradition.

There is another frequent tendency that I read on CAF. People will often argue that a point has no value or no authority because the pope did not put the seal of infallibility on the statement. This is obviously a Catholic argument, since non-Catholics do not believe in infallibility. I have always tried to answer this skepticism with a simple question, “How many things have the popes taught through the centuries, which we believe? How many of these teachings were taught under the umbrella of infallibility?” If Catholics reduce their assent only to what has been promulgated under the umbrella of infallibility, they would actually reduce the Catholic faith and its rich theological, moral and spiritual heritage by about 90%. Only about 10% of what the Church teaches is covered by infallibility, either because the Church has declared it such or because it comes through revealed scriptures. Even the writings of the Fathers have never been declared infallible. Yet, the Church subscribes to most of them as divinely inspired and holds them as authoritative.

This whole mindset of having proofs in writing and things that are sealed with infallibility and so forth can be very narrowing. Something need not be written or sealed to be authoritative or to be true. Whenever someone comes at me with this argument, that’s when I bow out of the conversation. What it tells me is that the person is not searching for faith; he or she is searching for proofs. When people search for proofs, they have one of two motives: a) they are scholars and want information or b) they have a personal issue with the subject at hand.

My position is simple. If you want scholarly responses, the average Catholic does not have them. And if you have a personal issue, it is not my job to resolve it for you. I can give you an answer. If you do not like it, because it does not satisfy your issue, then I’m not the person that you need to consult. So I move along and preserve my inner peace. I’m not about to join you in your skepticism.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
We need to be careful not to fall into skepticism. I just came from reading another thread about St. Francis of Assisi’s miracles. I was interesting, because I posted as a Franciscan, which I am. I explained how we know what we know about the miracles. One of the means, probably the most important and most informative, is the oral tradition.
When absolutely necessary, the Lord will give evidence to the doubters, but He much prefers simple faith. After all, Jesus did not say, “When the Son of Man returns, will He find any proof on earth”, but rather, “faith”.
OK, the point is that there was a poster who wanted documentation, written by St. Francis himself, in order to believe that he had worked miracles during his life. In the absence of such documentation, this particular person was ready to throw the alleged miracles out the window. This is the danger to which I am referring. When one becomes such a skeptic that one requires what I called notarized documents on every piece of information, one runs the risk of missing a wealth of knowledge that is commonly handed down through tradition.
Some posters here have asked for the infallible teaching on each verse of the bible! Imagine! Would they then embrace that Catholic interpretation? 😉
There is another frequent tendency that I read on CAF. People will often argue that a point has no value or no authority because the pope did not put the seal of infallibility on the statement.
Brother Jay, you well know the wisdom and peace which simple faith and obedience bring. I (we) thank you for teaching it to us. We are living in a most disobedient age.
My position is simple. If you want scholarly responses, the average Catholic does not have them. And if you have a personal issue, it is not my job to resolve it for you. I can give you an answer. If you do not like it, because it does not satisfy your issue, then I’m not the person that you need to consult. So I move along and preserve my inner peace. I’m not about to join you in your skepticism.
Doubt exists in abundance. Faith is the scarce commodity - like the pearl of great price (Matthew 13:45-46) - yet worth seeking.
 
I’ve seen plenty of posts with good arguments on behalf of Catholicism, so I am not discussing content per se. What I am not seeing is something like good strategy based on who the other person is and how she or he thinks.

…

Unfortunately, I have no clue how to explain strategy. Maybe strategy is not the correct word for relationships between well-meaning people. It is just my gut instinct that having a good argument is not enough at times.
I think your instinct is correct and Br JR has summed things up pretty well. Sometimes the reason that “a good argument in not enough” is that one of the parties involved, even though they approach a topic AS IF the problem is intellectual, really have some other issue or issues which prevents agreement. The issue may be personal or cultural or whatever. They may, for example, have some resentment toward the Church because their parents, who had 4 kids and were married for 18 years got an annulment; or they simply can’t accept the Church’s stance on contraception; or they may have experienced significant spiritual growth in a community of believers outside of the Church and have a great allegiance to their new community. These issues, objectively, have nothing to do with apologetics but most certainly play a role in how someone reacts to “a good argument”. Sometimes they simply “can’t” accept it because they have a higher priority issue to maintain (ie “I hate the Church because of my parents annulment), and they often don’t even know that issue is in play. In such cases, " a good argument” often is not effective because they don’t need a good argument, they need healing. We should not be discouraged by such encounters though - the truth gets planted in these exchanges and waits for the right moment to sprout. It may be months but is more likely years before it does so and has it’s desired effect. There is little we can do to control that. We should simply share the truth as we know it, be charitable in doing so and recognize that when people become angry or frustrated that it is not the “good argument” that is the source, but rather some unfortunate life experience. I know from personal experience that the anger and frustration can come from both sides of the argument: my personal frustrations often spill into my presentation of the facts.

Blessings!
 
These comments are directed to you since you have been on CAF for a long time and know what is happening more than I think I do.

I’ve seen plenty of posts with good arguments on behalf of Catholicism, so I am not discussing content per se. What I am not seeing is something like good strategy based on who the other person is and how she or he thinks.
When dealing with apologetics the strategy has to do the following:
  1. Answer the question at face value.
  2. If your answer leads to another question, you can assume that you’re now in dialogue mode.
  3. If you get back a condemnation of your answer, you can assume that you’re now in confrontation mode.
From that point forward, you decide whether you want to remain in the dialogue, if that’s where the converstion is going. If it’s going into confrontation, you have to decide whether you want to enage in a fight.

I like dialogues. So I say in the ring. I hate fights. So I simply tell the person, straightfup, that I’m not here to fight with him or her. I’m willing to talk, when they are. I’m not willing to fight. My inner silence and inner peace is much more important than your own. We have a duty to preserve our inner silence. Engaging in confrontations takes away my inner silence, because they only make me angry. So, I don’t do confrontations.
Unfortunately, I have no clue how to explain strategy. Maybe strategy is not the correct word for relationships between well-meaning people. It is just my gut instinct that having a good argument is not enough at times.
The Greek Masters invented the word argument. The term described a process to arrive at the truth. It was not a shouting match or a battle of wills. Argument goes more like this.

A = B
B = C

therefore A = C

Since most priests and religious brothers have very extensive training in philosophy, you will not see us engaged in arguments of any other kind. We find it demeaning to go there. I for one wish that the lay faithful would follow suit. I wish that the lay faithful would stick to the classical philosophical manner of arguing. Like the example that I gave above. It would save people from violating charity. It would preserve the inner silence needed to hear the voice of God. It would preserve us from unnecessary anger that often leads to sins of passion, either verbal or physical. It would present Catholicism in a much more dignified posture. It would help your blood presure. 😃

There is nothing wrong with saying that one refuses to dignify a statement or question with a response. We have a duty to be humble. That means that we come down to the level of poor, the unwanted, the ignorant, and the common person. Humility does not mean coming down to the level of the idiot. In fact, to do so is a sin. When one does so, one gives up something of his dignity.

When have we ever seen popes, bishops, abbots, saints, doctors of the Church argue with anyone who is a total buffoon? Never.

In the history of the Church we see arguments between the great doctors and the heretics. But keep in mind that these heretics were very intelligent people. The Fathers of the Church and the great doctors that followed enjoyed arguing with the very intelligent. Why? Because the argument followed the classic format. I present my premises and conclusions, then you present your premises and conclusions. They often got very passionate, because they felt very strongly about their positions. But they did not engage in nastiness.

Once the other person became nasty, the Fathers and the Doctors of the Church walk out. They refused to stoop down to that level of nonsense behavior. That’s how the term anathema came into existence. It was first applied to the idiots of the time. It meant that you were such a dummy, that you were not welcome in the same room, never mind the same Church.

Anathema later went on to include those who persisted in error, for the same reason. They were acting dumb. They were not trying to arrive at truth. They were trying to defend their position and make sale. The Church has made it a policy that she does not engage in these conversations.

Look at something common today, the pro-choice/pro-abortion people. Great men like Fr Frank Pavone will debate the point with many people. He never debates with the shouters and the bashers.

We have to recover our classical posture. We’re not going to be respected for our shouting and stamina in an argument. We’re going to be respected for our dignified behavior.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Apologia = an explanation. We do oftentimes lapse into argumentation from explanation. .
👍

I’d like to think that any time I go into a conversation with someone while using apologetics, that I will completely demolish all sense of doubt for them…however I have to remind myself that if I go into it with an argumentative attitude they’ll probably not listen to start with. (Truthfully, I’ve rarely gotten into apologetics because someone calmly asked, “…can you explain that to me?”…it’s usually something more along the lines of, “There is no God and you are a hellbound-dummy-poo head for worshiping statues!!”)

I try to keep in mind that, even if all I do is give them actual facts (opposed to things they’ve heard misrepresented), I’ve done a good job. It’s just not realistic to expect to fight someone into believing what you do. At the end, if they say “okay, I understand, but I don’t agree…” then that’s the best I can do for now. Hopefully when they’re not looking me in the eye, and they’re thinking about it later, they’ll change their minds.

I like to think of those conversations as opportunities to drop little “faith-nukes”…statements of common sense that will explode into “ah-ha!” moments when they least expect it. 🙂
 
Thank you, Brother Jay, for your always wise, well-reasoned and mature counsel. This is particularly important in an age when many Christian sects have lapsed from disagreement with the Church into anger against her. Catholic Apologist Patrick Madrid also offers wise counsel in this regard. It is the Holy Spirit, occasionally using us, Who accomplishes all conversion. Mr. Madrid advises us to pray an hour for each hour we will speak with someone. At first glance, it seems excessive - even unwarranted, but to avoid prayer on behalf of the other simply invites the heated (vs. the illuminating) exchange. To avoid prayer is to exclude the Holy Spirit from the process and to attempt to stand ourselves in His stead. Failure is then imminent.

Much as with Brother Jay, I greatly prefer to use philosophical arguments, as the Gospel is about principle rather than precision. To rely on nothing more than chapter and verse fails to bridge the chasm of interpretive differences. But, introduce reason to another being also possessed of a rational soul, and you just might establish a connection. In any event, I gladly settle for planting, if all I have are seeds. On those days when I carry water, I will be more than happy to water what someone else has planted. This goes back to my last employment, when I was regularly in contact with those needing a restoration of hope. I had limited time with them, and most I never saw again. I had to either plant or water, and then trust God from then on.
 
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