Problem with saying "The Lord"

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I really didn’t know under which category to put this topic. Since it relates to my ministry within mass as a reader, I guessed this might be the right one.

HaShem is powerful, and HaShem is the most important Name. It is the Name above all names. (HaShem is Hebrew meaning “The Name” and is a respectful way of referring to the Tetragrammaton Name of God when not in a sacred setting. HaShem is also just used to refer to God in place of using The Name.) It is precious, and it should not be replaced with “The Lord” when in a sacred setting, such as mass. I have a particular problem with changing it with “The Lord” as that IS the translation of a name of a god, but that god is Ba’al. Note that Ba’al is equivocated with the devil, as in the name “Ba’al Zevuv,” literally “Lord of the Flies,” which Yeshua used to refer to the devil in the form of the name, “Beelzebub.” HaShem is called Adonai, Hebrew for “Lord,” but not as a name, and not in place of HaShem.

I’m not going to argue about when and how The Name itself should ever be spoken, or by whom. That’s a separate discussion. My problem is that I am a reader (they call me a “lector” but I don’t have a formal calling from the bishop) during Mass, and I sing in the choir. I can’t stand when I get up there and read, or when a song refers to “The Name” but then replaces it with “The Lord” because the hymns are based on our lousy English translations of the Bible which remove HaShem. I mean, if we could have at least replaced it with the words “The Name” or “HaShem” (I know, awkward wording at times; “blessed is the name of The Name”) nonetheless, it really bothers me to have to use the name of Ba’al (albeit in English) in place of HaShem.
Today’s reading is one which particularly bothers me (I’m reading today) because it talks about the glory of God and God being the only Name above Heaven and Earth. I mean, what a place to replace that very name with the name of the enemy!
I’m going to read it, but I will feel a little dirty. I’ll read it as written, because that’s what the church approves. Pope emeritus Benedict XVI struck the name even from our Hymns. I have to accept the authority of this church I joined 3 years ago; the Catholic Church. It just really leaves me feeling dirty, and I’m going to have to pray hard before and afterwards. I wish it was something I could get absolution for in confession, but since it’s not a teaching of the church it wouldn’t be recognized as a sin for the priest to absolve.
 
To be fair, even if I wasn’t a lector/reader or in the choir, it would still bug me. I love reading, and I have a skill for it. I just hate when the passage I’m assigned makes that replacement. I will note that I have no problem referring to Yeshua as “Our Lord Jesus Christ,” because that’s not replacing his name, it’s using it purely as a title along with his name (or at least the anglicized version of the Greek iteration of his name.)
Please be kind in your responses. This is something which is really sticking on me, and making it uncomfortable for me to attend mass. Stopping my duties as a lector/reader wouldn’t change things enough, nor even would stepping out of the choir and back into the pews. It’s something I’m praying about, and I appreciate your prayers and your kind words in response to these thoughts. I so love the mass and the real presence in the Eucharist. I can’t imagine not attending every week, or more often whenever possible.
 
A lector’s (reader’s) task is to read aloud the text that’s placed in front of him, whether he is reading from a Bible, a lectionary, or a missalette. If you find that too challenging, just apologize to the pastor and explain to him why you are unable to accept his invitation to act as a lector.
 
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Replacing the Sacred Name with “Lord” is a venerable tradition and certainly has nothing to do with honoring Ba’al. (If I remember correctly, titles such as “Ba’al Shem Tov” — “Master of the Good Name” — suggest that the word “ba’al” is used neutrally in Hebrew and is distinguished from “Adonai” much as English has both “master” and “lord.”)

Possibly this has been shown to be incorrect, but I was taught that replacing the Name with “Adonai” was an older Jewish practice, predating the equivalent use of “Lord” in English. That’s supposedly where “Jehovah,” the questionable English version of the Name, came from — the story is that, for reading aloud in the synagogue, the vowel points of “Adonai” were added to the consonants of the Tetragrammaton to remind the reader to make the substitution, and a Christian trying to go to the Jewish sources to work out an English rendering of the Name read that too literally, inserting the vowel sounds of “Adonai” into the Tetragrammaton to get something like “Yahowah.” @meltzerboy, can you comment on any of this?

I applaud your reverence for the Name and your unwillingness to desecrate it, but this particular concern seems unique to you and does not match up with the history of using “Lord” in that situation. No one is invoking Ba’al (who, I’ve read, probably also had a proper name — or many, Ba’al being a common title of city-states’ patron gods — in addition to being called “Master” or “Lord”). Much as in the case of people wondering if Catholics might accidentally engage in idolatry when we venerate saints and images and use titles like “Queen of Heaven” that have also applied to pagan deities — as long as we know who we are talking about and to, there is no danger. We worship the actual Lord of the Universe, not any of the counterfeits that may have had that title attributed to them.
 
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I am not an orthodox Jew and so I can only relate what my studies have shown me. HaShem is not THE NAME, but literally translates as “The Name”. It is what some Jews would say when they came across the 4 letter name of God. But it itself is a replacement for THE NAME, as is “The Lord”, which from Adonai (Lord or sometimes my Lord).

Just as Jesus is an English version of Yeshua, so is The Lord an English version of Adonai. It has nothing to do with Ba’al. Look at it this way, some very great scholars for a very many years have studied THE NAME and its replacements used over the course of time. They have given us their best translations which the Church has approved for use in the Liturgies. Be a peace.
 
You might want to reach out to the Assn of Hebrew Catholics http://www.hebrewcatholic.net/ Can be a good resource for those converts who spent some time in “Messianic Jewish” Protestant groups prior to coming home, they may have some resources that answer your questions.

It may be that you are not at a place where you can be a reader or in the choir until you come to a realization that using these terms is not sinful or disrespectful.

Prayers you find peace.
 
BartholomewB said:
A lector’s (reader’s) task is to read aloud the text that’s placed in front of him, whether he is reading from a Bible, a lectionary, or a missalette. If you find that too challenging, just apologize to the pastor and explain to him why you are unable to accept his invitation to act as a lector.
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That would not change the situation enough. I said that twice in my original post.
 
Usagi said:
Replacing the Sacred Name with “Lord” is a venerable tradition and certainly has nothing to do with honoring Ba’al. (If I remember correctly, titles such as “Ba’al Shem Tov” — “Master of the Good Name” — suggest that the word “ba’al” is used neutrally in Hebrew and is distinguished from “Adonai” much as English has both “master” and “lord.”)

Possibly this has been shown to be incorrect, but I was taught that replacing the Name with “Adonai” was an older Jewish practice, predating the equivalent use of “Lord” in English. That’s supposedly where “Jehovah,” the questionable English version of the Name, came from — the story is that, for reading aloud in the synagogue, the vowel points of “Adonai” were added to the consonants of the Tetragrammaton to remind the reader to make the substitution, and a Christian trying to go to the Jewish sources to work out an English rendering of the Name read that too literally, inserting the vowel sounds of “Adonai” into the Tetragrammaton to get something like “Yahowah.” @meltzerboy, can you comment on any of this?

I applaud your reverence for the Name and your unwillingness to desecrate it, but this particular concern seems unique to you and does not match up with the history of using “Lord” in that situation. No one is invoking Ba’al (who, I’ve read, probably also had a proper name — or many, Ba’al being a common title of city-states’ patron gods — in addition to being called “Master” or “Lord”). Much as in the case of people wondering if Catholics might accidentally engage in idolatry when we venerate saints and images and use titles like “Queen of Heaven” that have also applied to pagan deities — as long as we know who we are talking about and to, there is no danger. We worship the actual Lord of the Universe, not any of the counterfeits that may have had that title attributed to them.
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No, it’s not unique to me, though it’s not common among Catholics. My religious history is, “diverse,” and it’s a miracle that I’m even Christian, and I was particularly anti-Catholic in years past. I was not a Christian, nor of the Jewish or any Abrahamic faith, when I converted to Catholicism. I can’t entirely explain (not in these few characters) how that past has influenced my current beliefs and approach to religion.

I know all about the word “Ba’al” being used in other cases. I know that the man who translated the Zohar from Aramaic to Hebrew was named “Ba’al” and that it doesn’t always refer to that god (or group of gods.) I didn’t start this thread to argue that point, because that’s a protracted discussion with much scholarly disagreement on many sides. In this case, it is a powerful and intentional thing for the sacred scriptures to have HaShem in it. When we replace it with “Lord” we are treating Lord as a proper name. To the Israelite and Judean authors of the books of the Bible, “Lord” as a name specifically referred to the god of their enemy. The scriptures are sacred, and that Name is part of their formula. We should NOT replace it with the name of the god who was such an enemy to Israel that they later associated it with the devil.
 
ajfrab said:
I am not an orthodox Jew and so I can only relate what my studies have shown me. HaShem is not THE NAME, but literally translates as “The Name”. It is what some Jews would say when they came across the 4 letter name of God. But it itself is a replacement for THE NAME, as is “The Lord”, which from Adonai (Lord or sometimes my Lord).

Just as Jesus is an English version of Yeshua, so is The Lord an English version of Adonai. It has nothing to do with Ba’al. Look at it this way, some very great scholars for a very many years have studied THE NAME and its replacements used over the course of time. They have given us their best translations which the Church has approved for use in the Liturgies. Be a peace.
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If you reread my post carefully, you’ll see that I specifically explained exactly what you said. HaShem is a conjunction of two Hebrew words and means “The Name.” I explained that when not in a sacred setting, we should not utter the name. Thus, for the purpose of this post, I used the common substitution, “HaShem” instead of writing out the tetragrammaton Name of God.

I have no problem where the Bible says “Adonai” and they translate it as “Lord” because that’s exactly what Adonai means. I have a problem with translators (and the sin has been happening since the Bible was first translated, probably into Latin or Greek) replacing the sacred name with “Lord.”

Anyway, y’all entirely missed my point. It’s as I expected. Perhaps I just need to stay away from mass on the days where the readings use that blasphemy.
 
newcalling said:
Anyway, y’all entirely missed my point. It’s as I expected. Perhaps I just need to stay away from mass on the days where the readings use that blasphemy.
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What was your point? I was hoping to present history that would change your mind about the connotations of that substitution, but that has not worked.

Most of us don’t see the situation you are describing as a sin or blasphemy. Whether you think of the Church as the Magisterium or the whole body of believers or both, she has made it clear by constant practice that it is not. Even the Christians who think we are wicked idolaters don’t raise that particular objection. Indeed, I have never encountered it before, though it seems you have, and I’m willing to believe that just about any variation of Christian teaching or Biblical interpretation is held by a group of people somewhere.

Do you honestly believe that the vast majority of all Christians across time, including the Church you chose to join and asserted that you believe in her teachings, have been unconscionably blaspheming God’s Name for most of history?

I understand that this troubles you, and I’m not sure what other assistance I can offer. I do think you should talk to your pastor, even if it doesn’t make sense to do so in the context of Reconciliation — though, as I’m sure you know, he is likely to be coming from the position that this is not, objectively, an issue.
 
If you feel that way, then I don’t think you should be a lector. No one is forcing you to be a lector, and if you feel that the readings are blasphemous (even though they’re not), then please just tell your priest you can’t be a reader and refrain. I’m sure your feelings of distaste are subtly apparent to the congregation as you read the Holy Word, and I don’t think you want that.

Do you really think the Holy Spirit would continue to let His Holy Church use a blasphemous title referring to Ba’al when it’s supposed to be referring to God? Adonai is our Lord. “The Lord is my Shepherd”…Jesus Christ, not the devil. I think the English translation is beautiful and reverent. I’m sorry, but you’re really mixed up about this. Your arguments about this remind me of people who accuse the Catholic Church of really being the Whore of Babylon in disguise.

Ask your priest for some help in sorting out your misperceptions. God bless. 🙏
 
newcalling said:
That would not change the situation enough. I said that twice in my original post.
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Since it bothers you so much, and you can’t accept any of the explanations offered, you probably shouldn’t be reading. I certainly wouldn’t, if I were you.
 
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May I ask a couple simple question to help us understand the problem. Are you suggesting, or you believe, the translations of scriptures approved by the Church are blasphemous? Or, at you suggesting, or actually believe, the scriptures themselves are blasphemous?
 
As long as you are reading the exact text that is put in front of you without introducing any changes of your own, then you have at least solved the problem for everyone else present in the church, including the pastor. There remains your own doubt to be cleared up. Have you spoken about this to someone with a thorough knowledge of Biblical Hebrew? If not, I would suggest either a professor at a local seminary or college or a rabbi at your local Orthodox synagogue. If all else fails, I can give you the name and email of an Israeli Jesuit who is bilingual in English and Hebrew and who lives in Jerusalem.

I only know a little Hebrew myself, but as far as I can tell, I think you are overstating your case when you write, “It is a powerful and intentional thing for the sacred scriptures to have HaShem in it.” The term Hashem in that form – the noun shem prefixed with the definite article ha – occurs, I believe, only four times in the Hebrew Bible, and it refers to God in only two of those four occurrences (Lev 24:11 and Deut 28:58). In Gen 6:4 and Ezek 22:5 it refers to human people: men of renown, i.e. “of good name,” in one case, and “of ill repute” in the other. Here (below) are links to the four verses, in Hebrew and English.

There are many verses, of course, where the term is part of a more extended compound, such as bashem, “in the name,” but in these cases it is followed by the name of a person or by the name of God and is duly translated as, for example, “in the name of David” (1 Sam 25:9) or “in the name of the Lord”, translating either bashem YHWH or bashem Elohim.

Referring to God:
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/leviticus/24-11.htm
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/deuteronomy/28-58.htm

Referring to men of good/ill repute:
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/genesis/6-4.htm
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/ezekiel/22-5.htm
 
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newcalling said:
Anyway, y’all entirely missed my point. It’s as I expected. Perhaps I just need to stay away from mass on the days where the readings use that blasphemy.
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To accuse Holy Mother Church of blasphemy is serious business.

Please, speak to your priest or someone in the Diocese office of Liturgy.
 
Stop reading. There are numerous other ways to serve without conflict. Truthfully, you might be over-thinking this. There is neither Jew nor Greek.
 
HaShem means “The Name,” and is used by Jews to avoid pronouncing the Tetragramaton.
 
Usagi said:
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newcalling:
Anyway, y’all entirely missed my point. It’s as I expected. Perhaps I just need to stay away from mass on the days where the readings use that blasphemy.
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What was your point? I was hoping to present history that would change your mind about the connotations of that substitution, but that has not worked.

Most of us don’t see the situation you are describing as a sin or blasphemy. Whether you think of the Church as the Magisterium or the whole body of believers or both, she has made it clear by constant practice that it is not. Even the Christians who think we are wicked idolaters don’t raise that particular objection. Indeed, I have never encountered it before, though it seems you have, and I’m willing to believe that just about any variation of Christian teaching or Biblical interpretation is held by a group of people somewhere.

Do you honestly believe that the vast majority of all Christians across time, including the Church you chose to join and asserted that you believe in her teachings, have been unconscionably blaspheming God’s Name for most of history?

I understand that this troubles you, and I’m not sure what other assistance I can offer. I do think you should talk to your pastor, even if it doesn’t make sense to do so in the context of Reconciliation — though, as I’m sure you know, he is likely to be coming from the position that this is not, objectively, an issue.
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Yes, I honestly believe that the majority of Christians throughout time were wrong for accepting the replacement of HaShem with “Lord.” At the same time, I don’t think they’re culpable for it because they were ignorant. Originally, it was only removed because they didn’t know how to write the Name in Greek, so they left it out. Traditions built up around it after that, but it used to be an important part of sacred scriptures. Even if you can’t accept why it’s blasphemous to remove it, and specifically to replace it with “Lord,” you should be able to recognize how much it changes the text to remove The Name and what a loss it is.

I’m not surprised you haven’t encountered this objection before. People who make the objection aren’t listened to because “we’ve been doing it this way for 2,000 years and you can’t say we’ve been wrong all this time.” So, there are only a few of us whose eyes are opened on this one. I don’t fault anyone else for doing it if they don’t understand why it’s wrong.

The trouble is, trying to explain it to me intellectually is pointless. I’ve had this discussion ad nauseum, and I fully understand the history of how and why the Devil was allowed to have us remove HaShem from the sacred scriptures. We do ourselves a disservice by continuing to leave it out. I know, 2,000 years of history, our church can never be wrong, the Holy Spirit wouldn’t allow it (history doesn’t bear that one out) etc. See, that’s precisely why I didn’t want to argue this point; it’s an endless discussion, and we’re unlikely to convince one another.
 
BartholomewB said:
As long as you are reading the exact text that is put in front of you without introducing any changes of your own, then you have at least solved the problem for everyone else present in the church, including the pastor. There remains your own doubt to be cleared up. Have you spoken about this to someone with a thorough knowledge of Biblical Hebrew? If not, I would suggest either a professor at a local seminary or college or a rabbi at your local Orthodox synagogue. If all else fails, I can give you the name and email of an Israeli Jesuit who is bilingual in English and Hebrew and who lives in Jerusalem.

I only know a little Hebrew myself, but as far as I can tell, I think you are overstating your case when you write, “It is a powerful and intentional thing for the sacred scriptures to have HaShem in it.” The term Hashem in that form – the noun shem prefixed with the definite article ha – occurs, I believe, only four times in the Hebrew Bible, and it refers to God in only two of those four occurrences (Lev 24:11 and Deut 28:58). In Gen 6:4 and Ezek 22:5 it refers to human people: men of renown, i.e. “of good name,” in one case, and “of ill repute” in the other. Here (below) are links to the four verses, in Hebrew and English.

There are many verses, of course, where the term is part of a more extended compound, such as bashem, “in the name,” but in these cases it is followed by the name of a person or by the name of God and is duly translated as, for example, “in the name of David” (1 Sam 25:9) or “in the name of the Lord”, translating either bashem YHWH or bashem Elohim.

Referring to God:
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/leviticus/24-11.htm
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/deuteronomy/28-58.htm

Referring to men of good/ill repute:
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/genesis/6-4.htm
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/ezekiel/22-5.htm
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Once again, I am using “HaShem” in posting because I do not believe this forum is the appropriate place to type the Tetragrammaton Name of God. It is a sacred name, and is the Name above all names. So, in this post where I say “HaShem” fill in the Tetragrammaton Name of God.

Since it’s becoming confusing, I believe God will understand if I type it out: The Name is YHVH in Hebrew Yod He Vav He. The most commonly scholarly accepted pronunciation of it is “Yahweh,” though some have rendered it as “Jehova” because of previous misunderstandings about Hebrew pronunciation. Now, in reverence for having type The Name, I say, “Baruch HaShem,” which is, “Blessed is The Name.”
 
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