Problem with St. Paul

[Ioannes_L]

BUT you are QUOTING PAUL

And what’s the problem with quoting Saint Paul?

Also, don’t use capital letters, it looks as if you’re screaming out loud.

 

[Mary888]

Being one with God, the Father, Jesus is to presented to the people by others. God spoke through Moses in the OT.
That is one it is Paul’s duty to present Jesus through the revelations brought to him by the Holy Spirit and say more.
Jesus himself says “you will see greater signs than this” (his miracles). After the Pentecost the Holy Spirit descended to the Apostles and they knew what to say in His name. Paul being an Apostle through Apostolic ascendency the Holy Spirit descended on him too.
In the Psalms also king David speaks as if in God’s name through revelation.
It is Christ’s Church and the Apostles are first saints after the Virgin Mary and Saint John the Baptist. You are in His Cburch thanks to the Apostles too and there is no danger in following them because they lead you to Jesus.

 

[Ioannes_L]

I would also add this to the OP:
Be careful, the way you’re taking in with this speach against the Church accepting the words of Saint Paul and Saint Augustine will end up leading you to apostasy, so…
Many here have tried to help you abandon this mistake you’re having about Jesus x Church, and if you keep insisting on this why not check some good Catholic reference about the topic, or a good priest.

And I insist on my first words here:
Don’t fall for the heresy and stupidity of the Church of Christ x Church of Paul.

 

[MT1926]

Yes I am an Extraordinary Minister of the Holy Eucharist.

So am I, not sure how this makes a difference?

And yes, review your Mass missal, many times Paul is quoted before Jesus.

Still not following you? Could you PLEASE give an example instead of saying review your Mass missal.

We have an order in the mass, in the missal. First we have an old testament reading, then a reading from the new testament epistles then the Gospel. These three readings are all tied together not sure why you are coming to the conclusion that the 2nd reading is replacing the Gospel?

Paul spoke to the young “church”, not to US.

Seriously? If Paul isn’t speaking to us why did the early Church include his writings as the inspired word of God?

JESUS spoke to everyone. See my problem?

Yeah I think the problem is you don’t consider Paul’s words to be inspired by the Holy Spirit.

You say you are Catholic which means you believe in the authority of the Catholic Church. Well that same authority says St. Paul’s words are inspired and valuable for ALL OF US, not just the young “church”.

God Bless

 

[MT1926]

Paul’s authority was to the “young” churches (for instance, Corinth, where there were presumably a mere 50 members).

Where are you getting this from? Catholic means universal which is the Church throughout the whole world. We aren’t a denomination that is only present in one particular building or community.

Without a Sunday Mass missal in front of me, I can’t tell you how many times Paul has replaced Jesus, but I know it is many, many times.

Unless your priest is not following the missal and is skipping the Gospel I honestly don’t see how Paul can replace Jesus. The Gospel is the reading we stand for. With this posture we show that this is the central reading of the Mass. The Gospel never comes from one of Paul’s writings so unless you are concentrating on the 2nd reading and day dreaming during the Gospel I can’t see how Paul replaces Jesus during the mass.

God Bless

 

[guanophore]

What I don’t understand is why the actual words of Jesus, found in the four Gospels, are outnumbered (from the pulpit and other teachings) by those of a disciple who never knew Him in the “flesh” (so to speak).

I have not observed that this is true, but on thing one must bear in mind is the audience and context that these teachings occurred.

Jesus came to a people who had been raised in faith, and should have recognized Him. He taught them about how the faith they received from Moses and the Prophets all pointed to Him. He was able to assume a lot, because His audience already had Moses and the Prophets, and knew a great deal about what God expected.

Paul preached to those who did not have these advantages of faith foundation, so he had to explain from scratch.

I don’t want to “follow” Paul, I want to follow Jesus.

Why would you distinguish between them?
“Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.” I Cor. 11

And in the words of St. Paul:

"…each of you says, “I belong to Paul,” or “I belong to Apollos,” or “I belong to Cephas,” or “I belong to Christ.” 13 Has Christ been divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? " ( I Cor. 1)

 

[guanophore]

Yes I am an Extraordinary Minister of the Holy Eucharist. And yes, review your Mass missal, many times Paul is quoted before Jesus. This is not as it should be. Paul spoke to the young “church”, not to US. JESUS spoke to everyone. See my problem?

Any readings from the Acts or the Epistles precede the gospel readings. This is the order of the Liturgy. The words of Jesus are the apex, or high point. They come “before” the gospel because they lead up to Jesus.

Paul speaks to us just as much as to the young Church. The reason His letters are in the New Testament next to the Gospels is because they are esteemed by the Church as inspired and inerrant.

I am beginning to wonder what Paul is saying to you that doesn’t sit well!

Without a Sunday Mass missal in front of me, I can’t tell you how many times Paul has replaced Jesus, but I know it is many, many times.

This is nonsense. Nothing that St. Paul can say can “supplant” or replace what Jesus says. Both are included in the liturgy because both are inspired and inerrant. The writings of Paul complement the writings of Jesus.

Agree, so why are his words read from the pulpit so often? I don’t follow Paul. I follow Jesus.

What makes you think that Paul is not following Jesus?

Not acceptable. The Church accepts Augustine’s “doctrine” of “original sin” when Jesus says NOTHING ABOUT THIS.

Actually, this is not true.

Paul is heard from our pulpits before (and in place of) the words of JESUS, no matter how “scant” they may be, found in the four Gospels. Something is wrong.

The epistles are read before the Gospel because they lead up to Jesus’ words and deeds. There is no case in which the writings of Paul take the place of the Gospel readings in the Liturgy. If you have a priest or homilist that likes to focus on Paul, then perhaps you need to take your complaint up with whoever is giving the homily?

Yes, I agree, something is wrong. You seem to lack understanding of the order in the Liturgy of the Word, and of the history and context of the New Testament books.Have you ever considered taking a class in New Testament?

 

[AprilsMom]

I use capital letters for emphasis. It’s been years since it was considered “yelling”. I apologize if you took it that way. I have no problem at all quoting St. Paul. But the Gospel should be only the words of Jesus, in my humble opinion. The other readings can contain whatever is considered supportive. That’s all I’m saying.

 

[Rob2]

. I don’t want to “follow” Paul, I want to follow Jesus.

@April(name removed by moderator) , you are missing the most essential point about those words of Paul as we hear them now . They are the Word of God , Logos . In following them you are following the Word .

 

[Ioannes_L]

But the Gospel should be only the words of Jesus, in my humble opinion. The other readings can contain whatever is considered supportive. That’s all I’m saying.

So we should remove the Magnificat, explanations added by the Evangelists, and whatever others might have said?
And by “considered supportive”, Saint Paul’s words are there, after all they’re supported and support the Holy Doctrine.

If you have any problem with the Bible, or Saint Paul, or whatever, do as I said before and check some good Catholic reference in order to remove this idea you have, and/or talk to a good priest, but avoid this mistake of Christ x Church.

 

[BartholomewB]

But the Gospel should be only the words of Jesus, in my humble opinion. The other readings can contain whatever is considered supportive. That’s all I’m saying.

Paul is never mentioned in any of the four Gospels. Taking the books in canonical order, his name appears for the first time in the last few verses of Chapter 7 of Acts, which is pretty close to halfway through the New Testament. As other posters have already pointed out, the order of the three readings at Mass builds up from the OT to the Epistles to the Gospels. In your own words, the first two readings are designed to be supportive of the third.

 

[MT1926]

But the Gospel should be only the words of Jesus, in my humble opinion. The other readings can contain whatever is considered supportive. That’s all I’m saying.

This is really confusing because that is how it is done during mass. The other 2 readings support and lead up to a teaching from Jesus in the gospel.

Just curious is your priest not reading the weekly gospel?

 

[AprilsMom]

I know that Paul is not mentioned in the four Gospels. I’ve read the entire Bible three times, cover to cover. My objection is that, many times, the epistles of Paul are used in the Gospel itself. The four Gospels give us the words of Jesus. I am confused as to why the epistles, directed at struggling young churches, replace the many, many words of Jesus. It’s as simple as that. Thank you for your answer.

 

[AprilsMom]

Thank you.

 

[BartholomewB]

It’s getting difficult to keep up this dialogue because you seem to keep repeating statements that are simply counterfactual, particularly these two:

My objection is that, many times, the epistles of Paul are used in the Gospel itself.

To the best of my knowledge, the epistles are never “used in the Gospel itself.” Would you care to quote an example or two?

I am confused as to why the epistles, directed at struggling young churches, replace the many, many words of Jesus. I

To the best of my knowledge – once again – the epistles never “replace the words of Jesus.” What do you mean by “replace”? Who is doing the “replacing”? Where and when?

 

[Usagi]

Seriously, when does that ever happen?

Paul’s epistles are often read from in the Second Reading, but the Gospel reading is always from Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John, according to the year and liturgical season.

 

[AprilsMom]

I went to You Tube looking for just the words of Jesus. I found one video. The second sentence read was, “Thou shalt not tempt the Lord, thy God” and I immediately realized this is what I am doing! a serious error for which I have repented and asked forgiveness. TY for all your answers!