R
Rau
Guest
@Stpurl has explained your error in understanding.
Problem with the Catholic Church's teaching on abortion in cases of rape
- Status
T
TwoNames
Guest
I believe that there is such thing as just war - perhaps even with preemptive strike. Killing an enemy in self defense of course “is allowed” - if that is the result of self defense. Just to be clear. It after he wants to surrender you still kill the enemy, that is obviously not the same.
of course we both know that in regards to abortion in case of rape, the baby is innocent and not an aggressor.
What about when mother’s life is in danger?
Well, it’s not simple, but it’s not too complicated either. You have two human beings.
You never are allowed (now even in such case) to do anything that would intentionally harm the baby.
Please watch the following explanation of Catholic teaching - it’s quite beautiful - we fight for both lives, even if one of them dies. We never intentionally kill one, so that the other can live. Just like if two people are drowning, you don’t hold one under the water to save another.
Last edited:
E
Elf01
Guest
The passage says that they are not loved, not that they are not alive.
S
stpurl
Guest
At least she says it’s ‘her’ argument and not God’s this time.
I have to say her posts are a perfect example of why ‘personal interpretation of Scripture’ (as per St. Peter) is prohibited. Look at the horrific mistakes that can be made thereby!!
I have to say her posts are a perfect example of why ‘personal interpretation of Scripture’ (as per St. Peter) is prohibited. Look at the horrific mistakes that can be made thereby!!
J
JoyfulTune
Guest
I agree.JoyfulTune:
The passage says that they are not loved, not that they are not alive.
I also think that before God breath life to a clump of clay, it has not yet alive. Genesis 2:7 calls it clay.
Once it is alive, nobody should kill it. All human killing must be done through crime court. It is called capital punishment. No religiuos organizations should be allowed to jeopardize justice principle of the crime law.
Beside jeopardizing justice principle in rape case, I also think it is a perversion of what Jesus say, if you say a crime victim responsible to turn the other cheek. An if she refuse to give her other cheek, then she is a murderer .
In the bible there are two separate teachings:
- teaching according to Moses Law (reward/ punishment meritted through work), and
- teaching according to Jesus Resurrection/ God’s Grace/ Mercy, (unmeritted favor)
Last edited:
J
JohnS
Guest
Abortion is always wrong. Period.
- Rape, as terrible as it is, is not an excuse to murder an innocent baby.
- As for life of the mother: What sort of mother would kill her child just to save her own life? That is the REAL question
J
JoyfulTune
Guest
About Just War teaching: Just War is without God’s Grace. Just war is ever under the God’s Law. All wars will be judged by God. The term Just is ever by Law.
But each father and mother has opportunity to repent. This including adultery & rape.
This verses below is my prove the importance to understand God’s Law. That according to God’s Law children of adultery are not the same as children of the righteous.
If our church only focus on moral theology, which do not contrast the importance of God’s Law teaching, this kind of teaching, undermines the importance of repentance & MARRIAGE of one man & ONE woman.
Wisdom 3:16-4:6
But children of adulterers will not come to maturity,
and the offspring of an unlawful union will perish.
17 Even if they live long they will be held of no account,
and finally their old age will be without honor.
18 If they die young, they will have no hope
and no consolation on the day of judgment.
19 For the end of an unrighteous generation is grievous.
Wisdom 4:6
6 For children born of unlawful unions
are witnesses of evil against their parents when God examines them.
A system that is cruel to women, will be cruel to their children too. The result of injustice is war. No matter how just a war is, it does not seek forgiveness, just similar to people who insist to to live in sin, they do not seek forgiveness. If a generation does not respect MARRIAGE of one man & ONE woman, it will find its grievious end most probaly in (just) wars, just as stated in wisdom 3:19 above.
But each father and mother has opportunity to repent. This including adultery & rape.
This verses below is my prove the importance to understand God’s Law. That according to God’s Law children of adultery are not the same as children of the righteous.
If our church only focus on moral theology, which do not contrast the importance of God’s Law teaching, this kind of teaching, undermines the importance of repentance & MARRIAGE of one man & ONE woman.
Wisdom 3:16-4:6
But children of adulterers will not come to maturity,
and the offspring of an unlawful union will perish.
17 Even if they live long they will be held of no account,
and finally their old age will be without honor.
18 If they die young, they will have no hope
and no consolation on the day of judgment.
19 For the end of an unrighteous generation is grievous.
Wisdom 4:6
6 For children born of unlawful unions
are witnesses of evil against their parents when God examines them.
A system that is cruel to women, will be cruel to their children too. The result of injustice is war. No matter how just a war is, it does not seek forgiveness, just similar to people who insist to to live in sin, they do not seek forgiveness. If a generation does not respect MARRIAGE of one man & ONE woman, it will find its grievious end most probaly in (just) wars, just as stated in wisdom 3:19 above.
Last edited:
J
jeannetherese
Guest
The fact that cruelty exists does not justify murder.
J
JoyfulTune
Guest
As you all have seen with your own eyes, those bible verses I showed you are real.
Moral Theology was firstly developed to reason how the church should be governed, how we as believers should behave. How clergy should behave, how church members should behave, using Canon Law & Moral Ethics.
But Moral Theology is not above Scriptures, because moral behavior is about governing our behavior. Scriptures, however, is God who reveal Himself to humankind.
For example:
In Canon Law there is one statement of impediment for marriage: that is, if the spouse have died, but the cause of death is murdered by the person who want to marry him/ her.
Interestingly, that marriage impediment in Canon Law, actually, was exactly how King David married Bathsheba (He, having murdered Bathsheba’s husband, Uriah, then married Bathsheba). And from this house of David & Bathseba, was born The Messiah.
I am trying to show you that Moral Theology is not The Theology. It is one that has its rightful place, that is behavioral ethics motivated by God’s Mercy
Moral Theology, having God’s Grace as its motivation, should not ignore Justice Principles, because our God, beside He is Merciful, He is The God of Justice as well..
When guidance for moral behavior in the church suddenly is used to ignore justice principles in serious criminal case, it disrupts justice principles in it. Does this pleases God? No. Our God hates injustice.
Comeback to my example, The Dilemma of The Moral Judge, in my previous post. This judge, he thought it was good to order the rich victim to forgive and give her money to the homeless robber. But that kind of “justice” actually ignores justice principle. Now that the woman robbed again, the judge realize his mistake: that such injustice empowers robbers to keep robbering rich women.
You cannot force Grace. Forced grace creates injustice for the crime victim & her family.
Moral Theology was firstly developed to reason how the church should be governed, how we as believers should behave. How clergy should behave, how church members should behave, using Canon Law & Moral Ethics.
But Moral Theology is not above Scriptures, because moral behavior is about governing our behavior. Scriptures, however, is God who reveal Himself to humankind.
For example:
In Canon Law there is one statement of impediment for marriage: that is, if the spouse have died, but the cause of death is murdered by the person who want to marry him/ her.
Interestingly, that marriage impediment in Canon Law, actually, was exactly how King David married Bathsheba (He, having murdered Bathsheba’s husband, Uriah, then married Bathsheba). And from this house of David & Bathseba, was born The Messiah.
I am trying to show you that Moral Theology is not The Theology. It is one that has its rightful place, that is behavioral ethics motivated by God’s Mercy
Moral Theology, having God’s Grace as its motivation, should not ignore Justice Principles, because our God, beside He is Merciful, He is The God of Justice as well..
When guidance for moral behavior in the church suddenly is used to ignore justice principles in serious criminal case, it disrupts justice principles in it. Does this pleases God? No. Our God hates injustice.
Comeback to my example, The Dilemma of The Moral Judge, in my previous post. This judge, he thought it was good to order the rich victim to forgive and give her money to the homeless robber. But that kind of “justice” actually ignores justice principle. Now that the woman robbed again, the judge realize his mistake: that such injustice empowers robbers to keep robbering rich women.
You cannot force Grace. Forced grace creates injustice for the crime victim & her family.
Last edited:
R
Rau
Guest
Nor can you accept as good and just the murder of an unborn child.
J
JoyfulTune
Guest
Crime offends human society and God too.
If you force a rich woman who is beaten & robbed to give her money to the robber, because you feel sorry for the robber’s child, then you empowers criminals to keep robbing rich women.
Rich people are supposedly help the poor. But not through crime law. Crime law is crime law.
If the judge did not order the rich woman to give her money to the person who robbed her, and then his child die because he cannot pay doctor, does this means the rich victim murder his child?
If you force a rich woman who is beaten & robbed to give her money to the robber, because you feel sorry for the robber’s child, then you empowers criminals to keep robbing rich women.
Rich people are supposedly help the poor. But not through crime law. Crime law is crime law.
If the judge did not order the rich woman to give her money to the person who robbed her, and then his child die because he cannot pay doctor, does this means the rich victim murder his child?
Last edited:
E
Elf01
Guest
And if used to justify murder of the unborn they can also justify murdering of the borm.
J
JoyfulTune
Guest
I am not saying Moral Theology is wrong. I am saying it has it’s own rightful place, where it should not disrupt justice principles in crime cases.
Criminal law has it’s own rightful place too, that is, to uphold justice principles in crime cases.
So when a woman is raped, the rapist is punished, but the woman choose to carry to term the pregnancy, in her case, God’s Grace is glorified in her.
OTOH, should she choose to abort it, in this case, God’s Law is glorified in her (Please read The Story of Judith & Holofernes - Judith 12&13).
So, in both cases, God is glorified either through Grace, or The Law.
And you should not mix the two (Grace & Law), creating a new perverted teaching that depend on neither Grace nor God’s Law.
Criminal law has it’s own rightful place too, that is, to uphold justice principles in crime cases.
So when a woman is raped, the rapist is punished, but the woman choose to carry to term the pregnancy, in her case, God’s Grace is glorified in her.
OTOH, should she choose to abort it, in this case, God’s Law is glorified in her (Please read The Story of Judith & Holofernes - Judith 12&13).
So, in both cases, God is glorified either through Grace, or The Law.
And you should not mix the two (Grace & Law), creating a new perverted teaching that depend on neither Grace nor God’s Law.
Last edited:
S
stpurl
Guest
Ahem. The person who is perverting God’s teaching is you.
J
JoyfulTune
Guest
Please read the story of Judith & Holofernes (Judith 12,13,14)
Is not Holofernes his mom’s already born child ? Judith cut his head.
Is not Holofernes his mom’s already born child ? Judith cut his head.
E
Elf01
Guest
Indeed. So can the woman kill her rapist?
You’ve already said she can’t kill the child after birth. Yet Holofernes was born, as was Davids child with Bathsheba conceived through adultery.
J
JoyfulTune
Guest
I have answered your same question before:JoyfulTune:
Indeed. So can the woman kill her rapist?
You’ve already said she can’t kill the child after birth. Yet Holofernes was born, as was Davids child with Bathsheba conceived through adultery.
an already born person (the rapist) can only be killed by Capital Punishment through Crime Court.
But CCC says Capital Punishment is inadmissable.
How can a moral law decides whether capital punisment admissable or inadmissable even without examining the crime and the crime witnesses and the crime scene? That is outright rejection of justice system and justice principle. Is it really moral to treat victims unjustly?
Have you ever experienced if your daughter being beaten up with hard object into submission until lose conciousness. Now she’s being traumatized & pregnant with the child of the criminal, and begging to get rid of it. So now you have a heart to tell her to carry it. What if she commit suicide because she lose all believe that compassion still exist for her?
Last edited:
E
Elf01
Guest
So you advocate the death penalty for rapists then?
S
stpurl
Guest
You are very confused here.
Your arguments are nothing but twisted emotional diatribes meant to ‘guilt’ people into committing murder, and trying desperately to misdirect people from that clear fact by claiming as “God’s teaching’ the most disjointed tarradiddle of cherrypicked scripture passages as ‘proving’ your point.
They don’t. No matter how many Scripture passages that you, in spite of God’s own Scriptural teachings to the contrary, present as ‘God’s teaching’ when they are nothing but your ‘personal interpretation’, you cannot contradict the true word of God.
Abortion is a mortal sin. Whether a child in the womb was conceived in holy matrimony by parents who love and desire the child or whether the child was conceived ‘in sin’, that child from his or her conception is a child of God. That child is your neighbor.. What indeed does God tell us regarding our neighbor? To love our neighbor as ourselves.
How ‘loving’ are you then to the ones who are least —the children in the womb who are innocent, who have no ‘voice’ for themselves?
Your arguments are nothing but twisted emotional diatribes meant to ‘guilt’ people into committing murder, and trying desperately to misdirect people from that clear fact by claiming as “God’s teaching’ the most disjointed tarradiddle of cherrypicked scripture passages as ‘proving’ your point.
They don’t. No matter how many Scripture passages that you, in spite of God’s own Scriptural teachings to the contrary, present as ‘God’s teaching’ when they are nothing but your ‘personal interpretation’, you cannot contradict the true word of God.
Abortion is a mortal sin. Whether a child in the womb was conceived in holy matrimony by parents who love and desire the child or whether the child was conceived ‘in sin’, that child from his or her conception is a child of God. That child is your neighbor.. What indeed does God tell us regarding our neighbor? To love our neighbor as ourselves.
How ‘loving’ are you then to the ones who are least —the children in the womb who are innocent, who have no ‘voice’ for themselves?
J
JoyfulTune
Guest
It is the court’s job to decide what’s just for the crime. The crime court will examine the case.JoyfulTune:
So you advocate the death penalty for rapists then?
God’s Law demands justice to be upheld for all people.
You should not be linient to the criminals but harsh to your own daughters. That’s just not possible.
- Status