Problematic hymns for congregational singing

[pnewton]

Bluntly, if the congregation either cannot our does not join in, it’s not appropriate for liturgical use.

If it requires training, it’s not appropriate for liturgical use.

If you’re doing something musically that the congregation cannot, KNOCK THAT OFF

The Catholic Church allows for both music to be sung by the congregation and by choir. The congregation still joins in, in prayer and meditation, which is still a form of participation in the liturgy. That said, I use this sparingly, maybe once every month or so.

As to Lo How a Rose, I used if for a meditation song once this Advent, knowing no one would likely jump in. I also plan on using on chant for Christmas. Sometimes, singing as a choir, of even a solo is the best way I have to introduce new music.

 

[TheMc]

Bluntly, if the congregation either cannot our does not join in, it’s not appropriate for liturgical use.

If it requires training, it’s not appropriate for liturgical use.

Would you care to back up that one with church documents? Not just ones that say we must participate, because participation also means silent interior prayer and meditiation. But can you find documents that say “the congregation must sing everything”? Such a concept is quite foreign to the Roman Rite, and was most certainly not envisioned by VII.

 

[JM3]

Another complaint I hear is if the music is too difficult for them to sing,

Untrained voices do better in flat keys. Too many music directors don’t seem to know this.

 

[YoungTradCath]

This can go both ways. We have a paid organist and a paid singer who was trained for opera or something, and they are both highly-trained, real musicians. And they love to show off their talents. BUT, they pick songs and sing songs in a way that make them absolutely impossible for the congregation to sing along with.

Makes me yearn for the folk masses with the songs I could actually sing along with.

No document of the Church says that singing is required for a mass to constitute as “participatory,” nor does one even cast a shadow of suggestion toward that idea. Sure, you might be jammin’ out Kumbaya, which is participating (in something), but it sounds awful and is not proper liturgical music, which in turn perverts the congregation’s interpretation of and expectation of mass.

I could make up ten thousand different ways to make mass more “participatory,” or contort existing documents in such a way as to give my ideas just enough room as to not make them illegal, but that doesn’t mean it’s good. I’m not saying that’s what you’re doing either, though.

Real participation is first and foremost in the mind. If that isn’t there, and if the environment isn’t conducive to it, then, well, what’s the point in singing at all? If mass is prayer and nothing but prayer, then why do we have songs in our masses that have nothing to do with praying to God? We have to understand that, yes, a lyric might be nice, but if a sane, logical, rational and respectful person wouldn’t pray the same lyric to God, then it does not belong in mass.

We don’t go to Walmart to play tennis, we don’t go to school to get a back massage, we don’t go to the fair to write an essay, and similarly, we don’t go to mass to sing random music that either: isn’t exclusively prayer, or whose instrumental accompaniment, if any, isn’t conducive to the goal of beauty and unity.

 

[TrueLight]

Edited: Never mind.

 

[agapewolf]

No document of the Church says that singing is required for a mass to constitute as “participatory,” nor does one even cast a shadow of suggestion toward that idea.

FROM THE GIRM

The Importance of Singing

1. The Christian faithful who come together as one in expectation of the Lord’s coming are instructed by the Apostle Paul to sing together Psalms, hymns, and spiritual canticles (cf. Col 3:16). Singing is the sign of the heart’s joy (cf. Acts 2:46). Thus St. Augustine says rightly, “Singing is for one who loves,”[48] and there is also an ancient proverb: “Whoever sings well prays twice over.”

1. Great importance should therefore be attached to the use of singing in the celebration of the Mass, with due consideration for the culture of peoples and abilities of each liturgical assembly. Although it is not always necessary (e.g., in weekday Masses) to sing all the texts that are in principle meant to be sung, every care should be taken that singing by the ministers and the people not be absent in celebrations that occur on Sundays and on Holydays of Obligation.

However, in the choosing of the parts actually to be sung, preference is to be given to those that are of greater importance and especially to those which are to be sung by the Priest or the Deacon or a reader, with the people replying, or by the Priest and people together.[49]

1. The main place should be given, all things being equal, to Gregorian chant, as being proper to the Roman Liturgy. Other kinds of sacred music, in particular polyphony, are in no way excluded, provided that they correspond to the spirit of the liturgical action and that they foster the participation of all the faithful.[50]

Since the faithful from different countries come together ever more frequently, it is desirable that they know how to sing together at least some parts of the Ordinary of the Mass in Latin, especially the Profession of Faith and the Lord’s Prayer, according to the simpler settings.[51]

And from Sacrosanctum Concilium

1. Mother Church earnestly desires that all the faithful should be led to that fully conscious, and active participation in liturgical celebrations which is demanded by the very nature of the liturgy. Such participation by the Christian people as "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a redeemed people (1 Pet. 2:9; cf. 2:4-5), is their right and duty by reason of their baptism.

In the restoration and promotion of the sacred liturgy, this full and active participation by all the people is the aim to be considered before all else; for it is the primary and indispensable source from which the faithful are to derive the true Christian spirit; and therefore pastors of souls must zealously strive to achieve it, by means of the necessary instruction, in all their pastoral work.

 

[WhiteLeather]

Here’s another quote from GIRM:

1. While the priest is receiving the Sacrament, the Communion chant is begun. Its purpose is to express the communicants’ union in spirit by means of the unity of their voices, to show joy of heart, and to highlight more clearly the “communitarian” nature of the procession to receive Communion. The singing is continued for as long as the Sacrament is being administered to the faithful. If, however, there is to be a hymn after Communion, the Communion chant should be ended in a timely manner.

“unity of their voices” doesn’t sound like interior only participation to me…

1. When the distribution of Communion is finished, as circumstances suggest, the priest and faithful spend some time praying privately. If desired, a psalm or other canticle of praise or a hymn may also be sung by the entire congregation.

This I bring in to note that the famous “Communion meditation” doesn’t exist - we’re called to be quiet or to join in a hymn of praise. I guess if one is truly thankful to the precious we’ve again received, giving thanks should be no problem.

 

[SKWill]

Would you care to back up that one with church documents? Not just ones that say we must participate, because participation also means silent interior prayer and meditiation. But can you find documents that say “the congregation must sing everything”? Such a concept is quite foreign to the Roman Rite, and was most certainly not envisioned by VII.

I don’t think anyone is claiming “the congregation must sing everything.” I doubt a case for that exists from a theological perspective. But from a practical perspective, if a musical piece – whether it be a communion hymn or setting of the “Holy, Holy, Holy” – that is too difficult or problematic for the congregation, then that work probably shouldn’t be used. (I say save the tricky works for the post-communion mediation).

 

[TheMc]

I don’t think anyone is claiming “the congregation must sing everything.” I doubt a case for that exists from a theological perspective. But from a practical perspective, if a musical piece – whether it be a communion hymn or setting of the “Holy, Holy, Holy” – that is too difficult or problematic for the congregation, then that work probably shouldn’t be used. (I say save the tricky works for the post-communion mediation).

Actually, that is what was claimed, as odd as that sounds:

Bluntly, if the congregation either cannot our does not join in, it’s not appropriate for liturgical use.
…]
If it requires training, it’s not appropriate for liturgical use.
…]
If you’re doing something musically that the congregation cannot, KNOCK THAT OFF

That second one really bugs me. I guess the priesthood is out of the question. There’s plenty of training needed there before ordination. My gosh.

 

[Sarabande]

Untrained voices do better in flat keys. Too many music directors don’t seem to know this.

Although I do agree that there are many hymns which sit better in a number of the “flat” keys, it doesn’t necessarily mean that they are always easier to sing. There are a lot of pieces of music which are in flat keys that even trained singers don’t like singing because it doesn’t sit well in their voices and is a bit difficult for them to sing. Almost every singer will have a certain key they don’t like singing in because it’s hard for them. I used to have a problem singing in B-flat when I was younger. (For instance, I would never touch the Schubert “Ave Maria” in B-flat and only sing it in A-flat.) Now, B-flat sits very well in my voice partly because of continual perfecting of my technique and I now only sing the Schubert in that key unless the accompanist doesn’t like playing it in B-flat. (Funny thing… a string group I’ve worked with a number of times was so happy when I started doing the Schubert in B-flat. A-flat was a difficult key for them to play that piece in. )

In regards to the untrained congregations and singing music, with the difficulty complaint, it seems to have a lot to do with hymns that are rhythmically difficult. With their complaints of something being too high or too low, it sometimes has something to do with how the hymn was composed. If there is a large interval for the voice to make a jump from a lower note to a higher note, even if it is within a singable range for an untrained singer, that can be problematic for some people.

What I have always found very interesting from my years of cantoring, especially when there are a few cantors on staff, was that it often times has nothing to do with the music being written “too high” or “too low”. It has more to do with the voice of the cantor and the frequency their voices puts out. I never would have known this had I not spoken with parishioners who would approach me after mass or on the streets during the week.

I’m a mezzo, so my voice has a naturally darker and richer color to the quality which does help with the music sounding “too high”. I’ve also been trained to sing “from my head to my toes”. In classical singing you need both the “tweeters” and the “hooters” to create a balanced sound so as not to hurt the ears of the listeners, especially when you sing in the upper ranges. When it’s all head voice or all “tweeters” then you can get into giving people a “headache” with too much of the high frequency. You need the balance of the lower frequency of the voice to create the feeling of comfort. Too much of the “hooters” or the lower frequency in the voice and that can also be too grating for the ears in a different way. Many times, in almost every parish I have every cantored at, people would come up to me and tell me how much easier it was to sing with me because they thought I was singing all of the hymns in a lower key from the sopranos or the tenor cantors. Funny thing was that I was singing in the exact same key as those other singers. When I spoke with a few of my colleagues about it, we realized it was more of the frequency that the congregants were connecting themselves with. I have even done this myself when for one reason or another I had only sung with “half of my body” rather than my complete self. The mass parts which don’t sit high actually sounded high - even to me. When I tried it again with my proper technique, it was fine.

I know there are other issues with the music in terms of getting people to participate in singing and can vary from parish to parish, but those two: rhythmic difficulty and the “too high”/“too low” thing as well as poor musicianship and bad voices are four of the more popular complaints I hear about in the real world.

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

Yes I know what you mean! Lo, how a Rose ere blooming isn’t terribly difficult, so I’m trying to think of names of some hymns that are hard to follow. I will look at the hymnal Sunday and get back to you! Sometimes it is an acoustic problem, where we can’t hear the cantor, that I realize. Other times, the melody itself is odd and very hard to follow.
I’ll check back in after I think of one!

 

[TheMc]

Yes I know what you mean! Lo, how a Rose ere blooming isn’t terribly difficult, so I’m trying to think of names of some hymns that are hard to follow. I will look at the hymnal Sunday and get back to you! Sometimes it is an acoustic problem, where we can’t hear the cantor, that I realize. Other times, the melody itself is odd and very hard to follow.
I’ll check back in after I think of one!

How about “Be Not Afraid,” as written!

 

[SKWill]

How about “Be Not Afraid,” as written!

“Be Not Afraid” isn’t so bad; at least its not “On Eagles Wings” (a.k.a. “The You-Hoo Song”).

 

[Sarabande]

How about “Be Not Afraid,” as written!

I have never heard anyone or any congregation sing it as written. Whenever I sing in an unfamiliar parish I will sing it exactly as written just in case, but then then the music director will tell me that singing it the “right way” will confuse the congregation and is too hard for them and just tells me to sing it the wrong “right” way.

The rhythms in the actual music are too difficult for a typical non-musician to sing and most church musicians never play it as written. I mean, come on… why compose a hymn using tons of double dotted quarter notes with sixteenth notes and then syncopated 16th and dotted eighth notes tied to a half note and expect people in the pews, most of whom never read a note in their lives, understand what any of that means? No one ever sings the 16th notes for each start of the verse. It is almost always changed to two 8th notes, then the first full measure is usually modified to just a single dotted quarter note, two 8th notes and then another single dotted quarter. In fact, it is usually every 16th notes pick-up to the next measure is always changed to 8th notes. It’s is not a hymn I particularly like on a personal level, but it actually does sound better that way and makes it easier to sing for people.

 

[Sarabande]

“Be Not Afraid” isn’t so bad; at least its not “On Eagles Wings” (a.k.a. “The You-Hoo Song”).

What I find problematic with the “On Eagle’s Wings” for congregation are that they, and often times cantors who can’t read music, will get the rhythms incorrect, especially when it becomes a little more syncopated and when it goes into the triplets. Vocally, I have found with congregations that the octave jump of the D is difficult for them to navigate well. I will hear cracks and just a difficult strain in some of their voices. It’s not “high”, but the way it is written can make it feel “high” because of such a large interval to jump. It’s easier to achieve those notes vocally if you compose it chromatically going up or down the scale or using smaller interval jumps.

The other part is also having to negotiate their voices to go from the E at the end of the verses to the low A on the start refrain. The voices will inevitably go into the chest voice there because it is in some of the lowest parts of the vocal range of many, especially the women. Some women, even untrained ones, can’t reach that low. I always hear people drop out there. There is a version transposed a whole step down, but that is even more difficult for the average person to sing because it sits too low on the low G rather than the low A.

People do love they hymn because of the music and the words, but many, especially those who hire me for funerals (which is very popular for funeral masses) always prefer if I sing it alone due to the fact that it is never sung well for them and they can’t sing it correctly either.

 

[CatholicZ09]

Bob Dufford’s “Every Valley” is really difficult. It goes from really high in verse one to low in two, and then high again in three. In verses one and three, it requires the congregation to sing two-three high E’s.

Here’s the song:

printandpraise.com/songprint/file/1433/preview/152852/103757.img

 

[TheMc]

I have never heard anyone or any congregation sing it as written. Whenever I sing in an unfamiliar parish I will sing it exactly as written just in case, but then then the music director will tell me that singing it the “right way” will confuse the congregation and is too hard for them and just tells me to sing it the wrong “right” way.

The rhythms in the actual music are too difficult for a typical non-musician to sing and most church musicians never play it as written. I mean, come on… why compose a hymn using tons of double dotted quarter notes with sixteenth notes and then syncopated 16th and dotted eighth notes tied to a half note and expect people in the pews, most of whom never read a note in their lives, understand what any of that means? No one ever sings the 16th notes for each start of the verse. It is almost always changed to two 8th notes, then the first full measure is usually modified to just a single dotted quarter note, two 8th notes and then another single dotted quarter. In fact, it is usually every 16th notes pick-up to the next measure is always changed to 8th notes. It’s is not a hymn I particularly like on a personal level, but it actually does sound better that way and makes it easier to sing for people.

Yeah, and people thought “Lo, How a Rose E’er Blooming” is hard!

And for those of you wondering what we are talking about, here is the original music:
Recording
MIDI (you must right click and select “save as” for this to work)
Sheet Music

How it’s usually played

 

[SKWill]

People do love they hymn because of the music and the words, but many, especially those who hire me for funerals (which is very popular for funeral masses) always prefer if I sing it alone due to the fact that it is never sung well for them and they can’t sing it correctly either.

I know of at least one couple who had “On Eagles Wings” as one of the hymns at their wedding. I know it’s not strictly a funeral song, but yikes!

 

[TheMc]

I know of at least one couple who had “On Eagles Wings” as one of the hymns at their wedding. I know it’s not strictly a funeral song, but yikes!

Another reason just to sing the propers. No confusion there.

 

[SMHW]

When the small choir I sang in back in 1981 and 1982 was singing Be Not Afraid my choir director made us practice those 16th notes over and over and over and over and over, again and again and again…

To this day whenever I hear and/or sing Be Not Afraid I am mentally hearing something akin to a woodpecker knocking out those 16th notes. If I should develop some sort of dementia when I get older that song will probably be the last thing to go.

Lo, How a Rose is a piece of cake in comparison! (But still not a simple song for congregational singing.)