Problems understanding God - why? (Edited Title)

[fhansen]

So you are saying that God does not have any free will? Or are you saying God is not omnipotent?

Neither. God’s free to do evil and yet incapable of it nonetheless-i.e. He can’t do something that’s logically contradictory

And one doesn’t have to be a god to be perfect. One can be a perfect human being without concupiscence. And Yes, God DID create one - and she survived harsh testing.

Adam & Eve were perfect human beings without concupiscence-and yet they fell. Yes, Mary was full of grace-presumably held from falling in order to play a specific role.

 

[fhansen]

Actually, he did. God the Father’s only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, which eternally processes from them. “Begetting” and “processing” in this case are not precisely the same as “creating”, so in a sense you are correct, because a perfect being needs to be a perfect image of God the Father, which must be eternal, and thus not created, which is a temporal word.

Yes, neither Jesus or the Holy Spirit were ever created-they’re God.

 

[BobCatholic]

Neither. God’s free to do evil and yet incapable of it nonetheless-i.e. He can’t do something that’s logically contradictory

I know that.

But you’re saying he could not create a perfect human being? That’s not true. He created Mommy Mary.

Adam & Eve were perfect human beings without concupiscence-and yet they fell. Yes, Mary was full of grace-presumably held from falling in order to play a specific role.

Nope. They were created imperfect.

I’ve heard three theories of the fall.

The serpent was slick and talked them into falling. So Adam and Eve had the imperfection of naivete.

The serpent was HUGE and scared them into falling. So Adam and Eve had the imperfection of fear.

The serpent talked plainly and talked them into falling. So Adam and Eve had the imperfection of stupidity.

Regardless of which theory you hold to, the following are true:
Adam had the imperfection of being a coward as he pointed the finger at his wife and took zero responsibility.
And BOTH of them had the imperfection of pride because they did not apologize and ask for God’s forgiveness. I’m sure if they did, God would have forgiven them and we would be living in the garden of Eden today.

If Adam and Eve were created perfect, they would have told the Serpent to get lost and refuse to listen to his lies. I know if I were there I’d grab a big stick and beat the serpent to death in addition to rejecting him.

Despite God creating Adam and Eve imperfect, he punishes them for something that was a result of their imperfection, which is not fair since God created them imperfect in the first place.

It is not just in any way shape or form to create someone imperfect, which only can lead to failure, and then punish them for the failure. The Great Programmer wrote a program that had bugs in it, and when it crashed, He punished them for the crash.

 

[fhansen]

I know that.

But you’re saying he could not create a perfect human being? That’s not true. He created Mommy Mary.

Nope. They were created imperfect.

I’ve heard three theories of the fall.

The serpent was slick and talked them into falling. So Adam and Eve had the imperfection of naivete.

The serpent was HUGE and scared them into falling. So Adam and Eve had the imperfection of fear.

The serpent talked plainly and talked them into falling. So Adam and Eve had the imperfection of stupidity.

Regardless of which theory you hold to, the following are true:
Adam had the imperfection of being a coward as he pointed the finger at his wife and took zero responsibility.
And BOTH of them had the imperfection of pride because they did not apologize and ask for God’s forgiveness. I’m sure if they did, God would have forgiven them and we would be living in the garden of Eden today.

If Adam and Eve were created perfect, they would have told the Serpent to get lost and refuse to listen to his lies. I know if I were there I’d grab a big stick and beat the serpent to death in addition to rejecting him.

Despite God creating Adam and Eve imperfect, he punishes them for something that was a result of their imperfection, which is not fair since God created them imperfect in the first place.

It is not just in any way shape or form to create someone imperfect, which only can lead to failure, and then punish them for the failure. The Great Programmer wrote a program that had bugs in it, and when it crashed, He punished them for the crash.

God created everything good. Adam was created perfect in his human nature-he required nothing more. The only thing imperfect about him was his lack of God’s perfection-of being God- and therefore his lack of God’s perfect wisdom. This “flaw” was unavoidable in my opinion. Mary was an exception. She was created in a way which would benefit the whole human race; we’re saved corporately. The only other option is that God is the author of sin/evil.

 

[BobCatholic]

God created everything good.

No doubt there.

Adam was created perfect in his human nature-he required nothing more. The only thing imperfect about him was his lack of God’s perfection-of being God- and therefore his lack of God’s perfect wisdom.

Adam required more than he had.

He required courage so he wouldn’t be a coward.

He required wisdom which he did not have - which you even admit he lacked.

Both of them required humility so they would not be prideful, and ask God for his forgiveness.

Depending on the interpretation of the fall, both of them needed intelligence, knowledge, or bravery.

They lacked something (which is an imperfection) and God punished them when they failed because of the imperfection.

This “flaw” was unavoidable in my opinion.

It was not. God chose to make them that way. Just as He chose to make Mary perfect.

Mary was an exception. She was created in a way which would benefit the whole human race; we’re saved corporately. The only other option is that God is the author of sin/evil.

I didn’t say God is the author of evil.

I’m just saying that it is not just to create someone imperfect then punish them as a result of their imperfection. It makes me question God’s justice. It makes me question God’s generosity, since he withheld his wisdom from Adam and Eve, and withheld the perfection that Mary had.

 

[fhansen]

No doubt there.

Adam required more than he had.

He required courage so he wouldn’t be a coward.

He required wisdom which he did not have - which you even admit he lacked.

Both of them required humility so they would not be prideful, and ask God for his forgiveness.

Depending on the interpretation of the fall, both of them needed intelligence, knowledge, or bravery.

They lacked something (which is an imperfection) and God punished them when they failed because of the imperfection.

It was not. God chose to make them that way. Just as He chose to make Mary perfect.

I didn’t say God is the author of evil.

I’m just saying that it is not just to create someone imperfect then punish them as a result of their imperfection. It makes me question God’s justice. It makes me question God’s generosity, since he withheld his wisdom from Adam and Eve, and withheld the perfection that Mary had.

He may have made them equal in terms if their relative perfection and I know its sort of a sacrilege to say so but perhaps Mary wasn’t quite as radically free as Adam. Otherwise God created cowardice and pride by creating cowards and prideful people, which wouldn’t exactly constitute goodness. He wants to draw mankind into wisdom-or into recognizing the perfection of His wisdom, after we get to play in the pigsty down here where our “wisdom”/wills reign rather than His.

 

[carn]

I see the free will argument fall short like this.

If you are a computer programmer and write a buggy program, it will cause errors. It has no choice.

If God creates an imperfect human being, they WILL make mistakes, including sinning.
Imperfection causes people to make mistakes.

Thus their free will is not really free, but limited.

This is an argument that free will does not exist.

It does not adress the issue whether free will solves the problem of evil.

But it shows that if there is no free will, then a hypothetical creator-god would be fully or at least partly responsible for all sins commited. Since atheist are also sceptical about free will (they do not often say it openly, but between the lines it is quite obvious), they are correct that a creator-god shouldn’t exist. Otherwise he could with some justifications be considerd the most evil creature in existance.

 

[BobCatholic]

He may have made them equal in terms if their relative perfection

Mary was created perfect. Adam and Eve were not. There is no equality here.

and I know its sort of a sacrilege to say so but perhaps Mary wasn’t quite as radically free as Adam.

Mary, because she was created perfect by God, had perfectly free will. Adam and Eve’s wills were reduced drastically by their imperfections.

 

[mdcpensive1]

Too long, my mind wandered off.

I understand. If you want to read an encyclical the important stuff is the first and last paragraph.

 

[BobCatholic]

This is an argument that free will does not exist.

It is an argument that free will does exist, but is crippled. You can make a choice but it is very hard.

It does not adress the issue whether free will solves the problem of evil.

It does.

Doing evil is easy with a crippled will.
Doing good takes a herculean amount of effort.

But it shows that if there is no free will, then a hypothetical creator-god would be fully or at least partly responsible for all sins commited.

I see it differently. It is unjust to punish someone who was created imperfect, for making mistakes. I’m not making any inference about God’s responsibility for evil. God did not make the choice for the evil. But He doesn’t make it easy to be good in such a case.

 

[yellow8yellowM]

It is unjust to punish someone who was created imperfect…

There is a logical fallacy here.

Is it then only just to punish those who are perfect and incapable of disobedience?

Are the most evil people, therefore, the ones who should be most excused of punishment?

 

[fhansen]

Mary was created perfect. Adam and Eve were not. There is no equality here.

Mary, because she was created perfect by God, had perfectly free will. Adam and Eve’s wills were reduced drastically by their imperfections.

No I think the Church’s position would be that man was created perfect as to his nature-“perfectly” who he was created to be IOW. Maybe the Catechism sheds some light here:

**1701 "Christ, . . . in the very revelation of the mystery of the Father and of his love, makes man fully manifest to himself and brings to light his exalted vocation."2 It is in Christ, "the image of the invisible God,"3 that man has been created “in the image and likeness” of the Creator. It is in Christ, Redeemer and Savior, that the divine image, disfigured in man by the first sin, has been restored to its original beauty and ennobled by the grace of God.4

369 Man and woman have been created, which is to say, willed by God: on the one hand, in perfect equality as human persons; on the other, in their respective beings as man and woman. “Being man” or “being woman” is a reality which is good and willed by God: man and woman possess an inalienable dignity which comes to them immediately from God their Creator.240 Man and woman are both with one and the same dignity “in the image of God”. In their “being-man” and “being-woman”, they reflect the Creator’s wisdom and goodness.

370 In no way is God in man’s image. He is neither man nor woman. God is pure spirit in which there is no place for the difference between the sexes. But the respective “perfections” of man and woman reflect something of the infinite perfection of God: those of a mother and those of a father and husband.241
**

 

[carn]

It is an argument that free will does exist, but is crippled. You can make a choice but it is very hard.

With my understanding free will either does exist or it does not.
That free will encounters some external constraints, which suggest certain choices, does not change that there is a choice at least between bad and worse choices.

What would uncrippled free will actually look like?

I doubt it could exist in a world like ours.

Doing evil is easy with a crippled will.
Doing good takes a herculean amount of effort.

And?
At best this could lead to argument “Only 5% will make it, so 95% suffer for the feww happy, God should not have created at all.”

I do not have any good counter, but as soon as creation happened, there is no contradiction, because however wrong we might have been created, to save as many as possible now suffering in the world even of innocents seems to be unavoidable.

I see it differently. It is unjust to punish someone who was created imperfect, for making mistakes. I’m not making any inference about God’s responsibility for evil. God did not make the choice for the evil. But He doesn’t make it easy to be good in such a case.

Yes, the creation choices (if there were any) are not justifiable with human reaoning as far as i know.

But the problem of evil, when normally formulated, seems to assume that the world has been created and argues that since no one prevents all the suffering that therefore God does not exist.

But with the world created this argument falls apart, because then humans exist and influencing their fate so, that many find their way to Him would be Gods primary objective.Removing suffering from the world would be contrary to that goal.

Why He created anything at all instead of not creating is in my eyes not understandable in even the remotest way for humans. But that He does not prevent all suffering does make sense.

 

[BobCatholic]

There is a logical fallacy here.

Is it then only just to punish those who are perfect and incapable of disobedience?

Are the most evil people, therefore, the ones who should be most excused of punishment?

Logical fallacy. A perfect person is capable of disobedience but chooses not to.

An imperfection is where God does not give someone needed to attain perfection.

If someone is perfect, is it just for God to withhold the perfection and then punish someone for a sin that results from the imperfection?

Imagine if you are required to run the Bostom Marathon by God but you are born with Muscular Distrophy and are in a wheelchair. If you fail to do so and God punishes you, is it really your choice? And is it just for God to do so?

That’s the problem I am struggling with.

 

[BobCatholic]

No I think the Church’s position would be that man was created perfect as to his nature-“perfectly” who he was created to be IOW. Maybe the Catechism sheds some light here:

Incorrect. The CCC verses do not say that.

It says God created man in his own image, this means God gave man his own dignity. That does not mean “perfection” since obviously man was not created perfect.

 

[BobCatholic]

With my understanding free will either does exist or it does not.

Free will is not binary - yes or no. Some people have full free will and choose good or evil. Others have less of a free will. When people have more free will they have more responsibility. When one doesn’t have any choice, they have no responsibility. This is moral theology.

What would uncrippled free will actually look like?

Look at Mommy Mary. And Jesus Christ.

And?
At best this could lead to argument “Only 5% will make it, so 95% suffer for the feww happy, God should not have created at all.”

I see it differently.
God should not punish people for failing due to their imperfections. God should not punish people for the sins of their ancestors.

But the problem of evil, when normally formulated, seems to assume that the world has been created and argues that since no one prevents all the suffering that therefore God does not exist.

I’m not going down that road in my reasoning.

But with the world created this argument falls apart, because then humans exist and influencing their fate so, that many find their way to Him would be Gods primary objective.Removing suffering from the world would be contrary to that goal.

How would it be contrary? With people being imperfect, their will is less free than if they were perfect.

 

[Spirithound]

What would uncrippled free will actually look like?

I doubt it could exist in a world like ours.

Or perhaps a world like ours could not exist for very long in the face of uncrippled free will…

 

[yellow8yellowM]

Logical fallacy. A perfect person is capable of disobedience but chooses not to.

An imperfection is where God does not give someone needed to attain perfection.

If someone is perfect, is it just for God to withhold the perfection and then punish someone for a sin that results from the imperfection?

Imagine if you are required to run the Bostom Marathon by God but you are born with Muscular Distrophy and are in a wheelchair. If you fail to do so and God punishes you, is it really your choice? And is it just for God to do so?
.

I think we are having a problem with semantics, so I will accept your definition of the terms perfect and imperfect and continue the argument.

Some sins do result from our imperfections. Some people really do have mental disorders and cannot control themselves. I think these people are few and far between. Most people can control themselves but to varying degrees. One of the conditions is full consent of the will.

If you are imperfect enough to not have full consent of the will, then you did not commit a mortal sin and will not be punished in Hell. This seems pretty fair to me.

 

[BobCatholic]

I think we are having a problem with semantics, so I will accept your definition of the terms perfect and imperfect and continue the argument.

Some sins do result from our imperfections. Some people really do have mental disorders and cannot control themselves. I think these people are few and far between. Most people can control themselves but to varying degrees. One of the conditions is full consent of the will.

If you are imperfect enough to not have full consent of the will, then you did not commit a mortal sin and will not be punished in Hell. This seems pretty fair to me.

I have no argument with this.

The problem comes when the temporal punishment comes into play. There is no way to get that healed.

 

[yellow8yellowM]

I have no argument with this.

The problem comes when the temporal punishment comes into play. There is no way to get that healed.

So you are only concerned that the punishment in purgatory is unfair? Please explain how this is different.