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yankee_doodle
Guest
Oh please, Christianity (who at one point endorsed slavery, stood silent while Hitler did his thing, and is the biggest current obstruction to equal rights) would now like to appeal to Nazi paranoia? Whatever …
- Status
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srferdave
Guest
It is unconstitutional, yet, they still do it.
BTW, all non profit organizations are tax exempt (not just Churches).
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humble_maid
Guest
Really? Give me your sources and not just your opinions. I have sources that beg to differ.
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josie_L
Guest
Here’s what the Media Report wrote concerning this:
- Because it opposed a U.N. resolution “that would de-criminalize people for being gay in countries,” the Vatican “seems to be O.K.” with gays being violently persecuted in many countries in the world.
[Those with homosexual inclinations] must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
There’s also the 1986 document, “Letter to the Bishops of The Catholic Church on the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons.” It says,
It is deplorable that homosexual persons have been and are the object of violent malice in speech or in action. Such treatment deserves condemnation from the Church’s pastors wherever it occurs. It reveals a kind of disregard for others which endangers the most fundamental principles of a healthy society. The intrinsic dignity of each person must always be respected in word, in action and in law.
And who wrote this document? Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, when he was Prefect to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith!
Why didn’t the Vatican support the resolution? Well, like a lot of people, it smelled a hidden political agenda. (Gay marriage, anyone?) But within days of opposing the U.N. resolution, the Vatican re-issued its call to eliminate criminal penalties against homosexuals.
The Holy See continues to advocate that every sign of unjust discrimination towards homosexual persons should be avoided and urges States to do away with criminal penalties against them.
Penn and Teller conveniently left out these important facts while making their smear.
themediareport.com/sep2009/penn-teller-lies.htm
Yankee, I’m starting to think that you like getting me mad?
Anyways, Gays can have the benefits of marriage within civil unions, no one is denying them that, in fact, it seems a little counterproductive quite frankly that the government and gay lobbyist seem so focused on this one aspect - gay marriage - to attain the rights heterosexual married couples have, why not give them these rights now (I believe France as already done so)?
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A_Dancer_Whirls
Guest
It is common knowledge that the Vatican helped many Nazis to escape retribution after WWII.
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josie_L
Guest
If it’s common knowledge than please provide your sources? God bless.
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josie_L
Guest
Where were your wonderful enlightened atheists and agnostics and/or universities for that matter when Hitler took power, and how about science, I mean where were the scientists, oh yes, I forgot they were the ones experimenting on the Jews, and killing gays, gypsies, the elderly and the handicapped? Furthermore, I don’t think you fully realize how many Catholics/Christians (especially in Bavaria) fought against Nazism, prior to their attaining power and after. Here’s an abstract of an article in the Oxford Journal (Holocaust and Genocide Studies):
**CATHOLIC RESISTANCE IN THE THIRD REICH **
DONALD J. DIETRICH
University of Wisconsin — Stevens Point
Scholars such as Guenter Lewy have established that the institutional Catholic Church capitulated to Nazism and traded moral leadership for institutional survival. **The following study suggests that Catholic priests and laity resisted Nazism, for example, both by opposing racist antisemitism as morally wrong and by using such an approach as a vehicle for confronting totalitarianism. **Ultimately, the regime’s documents themselves indicate that neither the Nazi state nor the Catholic Church were the monoliths that earlier scholarship portrayed.
hgs.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/3/2/171
Here’s another book on google I found entitled “American Intelligence and the German Resistance to Hitler: A Documentary History” that tell of the resistance of Christian Churches against Nazism.
books.google.ca/books?id=xoTWkzhf2uUC&pg=PA154&lpg=PA154&dq=catholic+resistance+to+hitler&source=bl&ots=7gtL5_Xx7V&sig=JK6MMEo3HY2RVo7x5TWn6KvEQA4&hl=en&ei=KXjbSpbrI9HL8QbT7uC2BQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CCEQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=catholic%20resistance%20to%20hitler&f=false
The Catholic Resistance Circle in Berlin and German Catholic Bishops during the Holocaust
Michael Phayer
Marquette University Milwaukee, Wisconsin
A Catholic resistance group formed in Berlin after the violence of the “Night of Broken Glass” was perpetrated against Jews during the second week of November 1938. The Berlin circle helped Jews escape from Germany and assisted those who remained up to the time of their “transportation” and even afterwards.
This circle is especially notable because it attempted to influence the entire Catholic church to react and protest Nazi antisemitism. Through its contacts with Nazi bureaucrats and with other German resisters, the Berlin Catholics obtained accurate information on the Holocaust.
In the end, the Berlin circle succeeded in helping many Jews but failed to overcome opposition within the Catholic church against a public church protest regarding antisemitism.
hgs.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/7/2/216
Take note that the last line of the abstract refers only opposition towards a “public” protest regarding anti-semitism. And also understand that thousands (about 6000 I believe) of priests and pastors were jailed, not including other religious, like St. Edith Stein who with her sister were gassed because the Catholic Church had the temerity to publicly defy Nazi rule in the Netherlands.
“However, Stein was not safe in the Netherlands—the Dutch Bishops’ Conference had a public statement read in all the churches of the country on July 20, 1942, condemning Nazi racism. In a retaliatory response on July 26, 1942, the Reichskomissar of the Netherlands, Arthur Seyss-Inquart, ordered the arrest of all Jewish converts, who had previously been spared. Stein and her sister Rosa, also a convert, were captured and shipped to the Auschwitz concentration camp, where they were gassed on August 9, 1942.[4]”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edith_Stein
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josie_L
Guest
I double checked, the number of priests and pastors encarcerated in camps (mostly Dachau) was more than 3000 (2670 were Roman Catholic priests). If anyone is interested in reading about their story, please read “Priest Block 25487” based on the memoir of Father Jean Bernard, and for others interested in the cinematic portrayal of this memoir please watch the award winning film “The Ninth Day” from director Volker Schlondorff
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ccolley2
Guest
I take it that the Atheists here have already looked at Pascal’ s wager argument…and rejected it…yes? or no?
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ccolley2
Guest
If you tell a lie long enough, loud enough and to enough people then people begin believing it is the truth. But It is still a lie.
It is actually a historical fact that many Jews were hidden in the Papal summer home, Castle Gandolf while the Vatican secretly created forged documents for their safe passage out of Italy. Shortly after the War ended the Wold Jewish Congress sent two million lire as a gift of gratitude to the Vatican, saying their “first duty was to thank him and the Catholic Church for all they had done to rescue Jews.” (Pope Fiction, Madrid, Patrick, Basilica Press, 2000)
“Rabbi Abraham Zolli, the Chief Rabbi of Rome was so moved by the Pope’s defense of his people that he felt compelled to investigate the Catholic Faith that animated this great man” “…he eventually converted to the Catholic Faith…”(Pope Fiction, Madrid, Patrick, Basilica Press, 2000).
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yankee_doodle
Guest
OK here we go again:
- Augustine of Hippo, who renounced his former Manicheanism, argued that slavery was part of the mechanism to preserve the natural order of things[96][97]; John Chrysostom, regarded as a saint by Roman Catholicism, argued that slaves should be resigned to their fate, as by obeying his master he is obeying God[98] but also stated that Slavery is the fruit of covetousness, of extravagance, of insatiable greediness in his Epist. ad Ephes [99].
In 1488 Pope Innocent VIII accepted the gift of 100 slaves from Ferdinand II of Aragon and distributed those slaves to his cardinals and the Roman nobility. Also, in 1639 Pope Urban VIII purchased slaves for himself from the Knights of Malta[101].*
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_and_religion#Christianity
This is only Catholicism (there was also more recent robust support for slavery among different protestant groups).
Obviously there was also rejection of slavery from a variety of Christian groups (ultimately including the CC). Nevertheless, Christianity legitimized the institution of slavery for centuries.
And yes we all know about the churches work in hiding some Jews from the Nazi’s (given that it reminds us of it at every opportunity) – but it never publicly denounced Nazi atrocities (all of its work to aid Jews was done covertly). It was far more concerned with it’s own survival.
So what is it you said, if you tell a lie long enough, loud enough, bla, bla, bla. Hmmm, well I try to restrain myself from needless hyperbole, hence I won’t say the majority of you guys are intentionally lying or misrepresenting your church. Rather I assume you just don’t know the history (which is fine, no one can know it all, or at least not in my experience).
Only your reaction can tell me whether you’re a willing apologist for reprehensible conduct, or whether you’re intellectually honest enough to acknowledge your church has committed numerous wrongs throughout its history. Unfortunately, the former is usually true
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gearhead
Guest
Source?
And you say “the gays” like the entire homosexual community are some Borg-like collective with only one mind. What one person or couple does doesn’t dictate what the mainstream will do.
I strongly doubt that any court did this, since they’d have to go against the First Amendment to do it. If you’re going to make an allegation like that, I think you should back it up. Source, please.
Does the slippery slope argument work the other way?
If we let you “win” on same-sex marriage, are, say, forced conversions or religious tests for office just down the road?
I can’t speak for all atheists, but I’ve rejected it. Pascal’s Wager is an awful argument.
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josie_L
Guest
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josie_L
Guest
I found this funny: Founded in 1995 – The only scientific research organization exploring the bigfoot/sasquatch mystery.
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ccolley2
Guest
First of all, Neither of the two…count them two… quotes I used even addressed SLAVERY. We will address that later. But I DO want to assist you by “fixing” your ignorance about the Vatican’s role in WWII.OK here we go again:
In the 15th century, some of the Popes legitimized slavery, at least as a result of war[100]. In 1452 Pope Nicholas V issued the papal bull Dum Diversas, which granted Afonso V of Portugal the right to reduce any “Saracens, pagans and any other unbelievers” to hereditary slavery. The approval of slavery under these conditions was reaffirmed and extended in his Romanus Pontifex bull of 1455.
- Augustine of Hippo, who renounced his former Manicheanism, argued that slavery was part of the mechanism to preserve the natural order of things[96][97]; John Chrysostom, regarded as a saint by Roman Catholicism, argued that slaves should be resigned to their fate, as by obeying his master he is obeying God[98] but also stated that Slavery is the fruit of covetousness, of extravagance, of insatiable greediness in his Epist. ad Ephes [99].
In 1488 Pope Innocent VIII accepted the gift of 100 slaves from Ferdinand II of Aragon and distributed those slaves to his cardinals and the Roman nobility. Also, in 1639 Pope Urban VIII purchased slaves for himself from the Knights of Malta[101].*
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_and_religion#Christianity
This is only Catholicism (there was also more recent robust support for slavery among different protestant groups).
Obviously there was also rejection of slavery from a variety of Christian groups (ultimately including the CC). Nevertheless, Christianity legitimized the institution of slavery for centuries.
So what is it you said, if you tell a lie long enough, loud enough, bla, bla, bla. Hmmm, well I try to restrain myself from needless hyperbole, hence I won’t say the majority of you guys are intentionally lying or misrepresenting your church. Rather I assume you just don’t know the history (which is fine, no one can know it all, or at least not in my experience).
Only your reaction can tell me whether you’re a willing apologist for reprehensible conduct, or whether you’re intellectually honest enough to acknowledge your church has committed numerous wrongs throughout its history. Unfortunately, the former is usually true
YOUR POST
And yes we all know about the churches work in hiding** some Jews** from the Nazi’s (given that it reminds us of it at every opportunity) – **but it never publicly denounced Nazi atrocities (all of its work to aid Jews was done covertly). It was far more concerned with it’s own survival. **
MY ANSWER:
I don’t even think you bothered to read my post! The Vatican helped hundreds of thousands of Jews escape the Nazis~
In 1937, prior to his becoming Pope, Eugenio Pacelli was already causing the Nazis consternation. He had written several encyclicals implicitly condemning totalitarianism. He knew that his condemnation of Nazism could provoke a deadly backlash of anti-Semitism.(Pope Fiction) He was right, while still a Papal Nuncio, he wrote an encyclical IN GERMAN that condemned any war of extermination. Once elected Pope, the Nazis accused Pacelli OPENLY AND IN PRINT of repudiating the Nazi party. In 1943, the Pope ordered that all monasteries, convents and houses of study be opened to hide Jews from Nazis. In one sense, the Pope WAS silent. He learned the harsh lesson of what would happen to Jews when the Catholic bishops in Holland publicly confronted the Nazis. Thousands of Jews, including Jewish converts and Many priests were rounded up and sent to concentration camps. The Pope wisely elected not to pursue a strategy of aggressive public harangues against Hitler. For fear of more reprisals against Jews and Catholics… HE WAS NOT AT ALL CONCERNED WITH THE SURVIVAL OF THE CHURCH! (Pope Fiction Madrid, Patrick, 2000)[emphasis mine]
The entire tone of your post comes across as condescending and arrogant!
I do admit that the Church has made mistakes. Luckily she has learned from them. And God, yes, the God that you don’t believe in has taken those mistakes and caused some good to come out of them. The church is made up of human beings and human beings make mistakes.
Now as to slavery: Your wikipedia article is from a writer who is a Gnostic so I don’t really give her Article on Christianity any credence whatsoever. You really shouldn’t believe everything you read on wikipedia. Also, “Indentured servitude” is not the same thing as “slavery”.
**Pope Benedict XIV **- 1740 - 1758 - Apostolic letter condemning slavery Immensa Pastorum.
Pope Eugene IV - 1435 Papal Bull (Sicut Dudum) condemning slavery- keeping or taking of slaves means automatic excommunication.
Pope Paul III 1537 - Letter of Exhortation - Sublimis Deus - condemnation of slavery
**Pope Gregory XVI **Apostolic Letter In Supremo Apostolatus condemning both slavery and the slave trade.
Pope Urban VII 1639 Apostolic letter condemning slavery and those that participate in it.
Pius II 1462 letter warning against enslaving anyone.
**Pope Leo XIII ** 1890 Apostolic Exhortation condemning slavery
Other Popes that condemned slavery in any form…
Gregory the Great, Hadrian I, Alexander III, Innocent III, Gregory IX, Leo X, Pius VII
Pope Pius X 1912 Lacrimabile Statucondemning slavery.
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yankee_doodle
Guest
here’s my original post, which prompted you to call me a liar:
So in response I addressed the two things you accused me of lying of.
Gosh, not the apologists view of history. Next thing you know you’ll be telling me that Winston Churchill was a Catholic
But OK I’ll play along …
Well you gave me the Catholic version. Here’s another perspective:
*Historians generally see the policy of Pius XII as consistent with a longstanding tradition of Vatican diplomacy. During political storms of the depression years, this tradition was interpreted by Eugenio Pacelli, Cardinal Secretary of State under Pius XI and later to become the wartime Pope. Pacelli exemplified a profound commitment to the spiritual and pastoral mission of the Holy See; he saw his role as avoiding association with power blocs and forging diplomatic links with conservative or even fascist regimes. As fascism extended its influence in Europe during the 1930s, the Vatican remained aloof, occasionally challenging fascist ideology when it touched on important matters of Catholic doctrine or the legal position of the church, but unwilling to interfere with what it considered to be purely secular concerns. Beyond this, the Vatican found most aspects of right-wing regimes congenial, appreciating their patronage of the church, their challenge to Marxism, and their frequent championing of a conservative social vision.
“For the professing Christian, of all the questions that arise out of the study of the Third Reich and the Holocaust the most terrible are these: What were the churches doing? How could such a monstrous crime be committed in the heart of Christendom by baptized Roman Catholics, Protestants, and Eastern Orthodox who were never rebuked, let alone excommunicated? Where were the Christians?” —Franklin H. Littell, “Foreword” in Bonifas, Prisoner 20-801: A French National in the Nazi Labor Camps, p. vii. *
jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/Marrus.html
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yankee_doodle
Guest
*Eugenio Pacelli, then Secretary of State, and German cardinals played a central role in drafting the 1937 encyclical “Mit brennender Sorge” (“With Burning Concern”), which was a forceful condemnation of National Socialism. Soon after he was elected Pope, Pacelli met with the same group of German cardinals to discuss how they should deal with Nazism. In order to understand Pacelli’s evolving policies as Secretary of State and as pope, can we see the drafts of Mit brennender Sorge, or any other relevant material pertaining to that encyclical or his meeting in 1939 with the German cardinals after his election?
In 1938, after the Kristallnacht pogrom, only one prominent German prelate, Bernhard Lichtenberg, rector of Saint Hedwig’s cathedral in Berlin, had the courage to condemn the outrages publicly. Pacelli was given a detailed report by the papal nuncio in Berlin but there appears to have been no official reaction by the Vatican. This issue is especially important because Archbishop Amleto Cicognani, Apostolic Delegate to the United States certainly informed the Vatican of the public broadcast of the American bishops’ condemnation of Kristallnacht. Do the archives reveal internal discussions among Vatican officials, including Pacelli, about the appropriate reaction to this pogrom?
In June 1938 Pope Pius XI commissioned Father John LaFarge S.J. to draft an encyclical on racism and antisemitism. The editors of the ADSS affirmed that nothing was found in the Vatican archives on this subject.13 However, in an article that appeared in the Osservatore Romano in 1973, Father Burkhart Schneider, one of the ADSS editors, stated that “the texts prepared, as well as many on other topics, have ended up in the silence of the archives14”. May we review the drafts and materials relating to that document from the archives?
A substantial part of Volume 6 is devoted to the aborted efforts to obtain Brazilian visas for Catholics of Jewish origin. Numerous questions have been raised concerning the failure of this project. In addition, it is known that a part of the money destined for the refugees came from funds*
jewishwebsight.com/bin/articles.cgi?Area=ar&ID=AR703
*Cum nimis absurdum was a papal bull issued by Pope Paul IV dated July 14, 1555. It takes its name from its first words:[1] “Since it is absurd and utterly inconvenient that the Jews, who through their own fault were condemned by God to eternal slavery…”
The bull placed religious and economic restrictions on Jews in the Papal States. The bull renewed anti-Jewish legislation and subjected Jews to various degradations and restrictions on their personal freedom. Under the bull, Jewish males were forced to wear a pointed yellow hat, and Jewish females a yellow kerchief (see yellow badge). Jews were also forbidden to own real estate or practice medicine among Christians. The bull also created the Roman Ghetto, where the Jews of Rome, who had lived freely since antiquity, were segregated in a walled quarter with three gates that were locked at night. Jews were also restricted to one synagogue per city.*
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cum_nimis_absurdum
In 1938, after the Kristallnacht pogrom, only one prominent German prelate, Bernhard Lichtenberg, rector of Saint Hedwig’s cathedral in Berlin, had the courage to condemn the outrages publicly. Pacelli was given a detailed report by the papal nuncio in Berlin but there appears to have been no official reaction by the Vatican. This issue is especially important because Archbishop Amleto Cicognani, Apostolic Delegate to the United States certainly informed the Vatican of the public broadcast of the American bishops’ condemnation of Kristallnacht. Do the archives reveal internal discussions among Vatican officials, including Pacelli, about the appropriate reaction to this pogrom?
In June 1938 Pope Pius XI commissioned Father John LaFarge S.J. to draft an encyclical on racism and antisemitism. The editors of the ADSS affirmed that nothing was found in the Vatican archives on this subject.13 However, in an article that appeared in the Osservatore Romano in 1973, Father Burkhart Schneider, one of the ADSS editors, stated that “the texts prepared, as well as many on other topics, have ended up in the silence of the archives14”. May we review the drafts and materials relating to that document from the archives?
A substantial part of Volume 6 is devoted to the aborted efforts to obtain Brazilian visas for Catholics of Jewish origin. Numerous questions have been raised concerning the failure of this project. In addition, it is known that a part of the money destined for the refugees came from funds*
jewishwebsight.com/bin/articles.cgi?Area=ar&ID=AR703
*Cum nimis absurdum was a papal bull issued by Pope Paul IV dated July 14, 1555. It takes its name from its first words:[1] “Since it is absurd and utterly inconvenient that the Jews, who through their own fault were condemned by God to eternal slavery…”
The bull placed religious and economic restrictions on Jews in the Papal States. The bull renewed anti-Jewish legislation and subjected Jews to various degradations and restrictions on their personal freedom. Under the bull, Jewish males were forced to wear a pointed yellow hat, and Jewish females a yellow kerchief (see yellow badge). Jews were also forbidden to own real estate or practice medicine among Christians. The bull also created the Roman Ghetto, where the Jews of Rome, who had lived freely since antiquity, were segregated in a walled quarter with three gates that were locked at night. Jews were also restricted to one synagogue per city.*
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cum_nimis_absurdum
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exan
Guest
The word matrimonium derives from latin and was not invented by christians. In some languages its still called that way. marriage is not a christian word or invented by christians. Nor did christians invite the ‘wedding’ a union between a man and a woman (or 2 people in general) that also existed long before christianity.
The word civil union is very unromantic, its a bit arrogant of christians to wish the word marriage to be their own even when they did not create it. Its such a harsh statement many christians see gay people as inferior. Its most hurtfull to those who are christian and gay and who wish to join. But I guess they do not count to many christians. I find the “why not stealing” an arrogant statement, like gay people or atheists would like to steal more than christians. And then some people wonder why some atheists do not like religious people or think religious people sometimes are arrogant.
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yankee_doodle
Guest
You’re absolutely right, it was a Latin (Roman) word.
The first recorded mention of the performance of same-sex marriages occurred during the early Roman Empire.[42] These same sex marriages were solemnized with the same ceremonies and customs which were used for heterosexual marriages.[43] Cicero mentions the marriage (using the latin verb for “to marry”, i.e. nubere) of the son of Curio the Elder in a casual manner as if it was commonplace.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage
You guys really have to start doing your research before launching far reaching arguments (liking relying on a words Latin root to provide its meaning)
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Chancellare
Guest
Nice quote up there.
Stalin starved more than 20 million to death to eradicate hunger. Mao’s cultural revolution murdered more than 50 million to improve its culture. Pol Pot murdered 3 million to create a perfect society. The list goes on and on. All of them atheist regimes that advanced towards “uniformity” and “without coercion”. Yet half of the fools and half of the hypocrites couldn’t figure out why the atheists in this thread are quoting Thomas Jefferson but failed to extoll the virtues of these atheist exemplars! It’s a pity these regimes spanned less than a hundred years only!
- Status