Problems w/ Atheism

[humble_maid]

Hey guys? What’d I miss? I skipped a lot of the gay marriage stuff, even though I am pro-gay marriage and all

So, anyway, back to debating religion with the conservative Christian fellow…

Name one historical document other than the Bible that was written about him during his lifetime, or by his IMMEDIATE followers. The New Testament was written by “Second-Generation” Christians, the disciples of the apostles.

Can’t debate the Holy Spirit thing, as there is no evidence either supporting or disproving him/her/it. I even said, and you quoted it, it is a matter of faith.

By the comment on Heaven, I meant that there is no proof of heaven, so without citing it as a way people are saved, prove to me that ON THIS EARTH organized religion has saved more LIVES, as in ON EARTH, than it has taken, or damaged beyond hope of repair.

Hope my post is up-to-date in the debate and all, as I said, I didn’t read most of it…

Peace

Oh my Lord here comes another one with the same attitude thinking he is making some self-proclaimed revelation and hailing it as if it is the saving truth to humanity. Did you even do your homework before making all these accusations? Well, perhaps you forgot. Nonetheless I and some others will give you answers shortly. Good night.

 

[AntiTheist]

Whats the point of marriage to an athiest (I am going to use athiest as an example so we don’t get too far off topic)?

For most atheists, it seems to be for social reasons – marriage (remember, we’re talking about civil marriage, here) is a social expression of an official partnership recognized by the community.

I understand that you think that there shouldn’t be civil marriage – but there is. So given the fact that there is such a thing as civil marriage, don’t you think that atheists, gays, and people of any religion at all should be allowed to get married?

Surely, you don’t oppose the idea of our secular laws recognizing the partnership of any people who wish to become partners?

 

[PantheistsRule]

Saving truth to humanity? First off, there are MANY better ways to phrase what you are trying to say, and secondly, I never claimed ANYTHING like that. In fact, I’ve explicitly stated various times that what I am saying is my opinion. When people say things about my views, and attempt to make them look foolish or not well thought through, I defend them. This is a major problem with most Christians: when someone has different views, Christians think that their different views are an attack on theirs. You think YOU are the only people who could EVER be right. What would Jesus say about THAT? You know who was like that? The Pharisees… that’s right. The people who organized the crucifixion of Jesus, according to your Bible. Jesus was a counterculture icon of his day, and nonconformist. Many Christians embody the very close-mindedness Jesus sought to eliminate. I’m not saying you need to believe what I believe, but instead of saying I am wrong and I am going to Hell or something, how about maybe trying to understand why I might believe what I do and accept it, as Jesus accepted others.

Also, in case you didn’t realize my post was a response to someone elses post awhile ago. I believe it is on page 11. And what exactly in the post you just quoted was so offensive to you, or made me sound like such a smartass? I simply asked serious questions, and expected either serious answers, or an agreement to disagree.

And really… no comment on the immature comeback about doing homework. Makes you sound like it’s YOU in grade-school…

Peace
A slightly Pissed-off PantheistsRule

 

[srferdave]

The New Testament was written by “Second-Generation” Christians, the disciples of the apostles.

Not true. Gospel of Matthew was written by the apostle Matthew. 1&2 Peter were written by the apostle Peter.

By the comment on Heaven, I meant that there is no proof of heaven, so without citing it as a way people are saved, prove to me that ON THIS EARTH organized religion has saved more LIVES, as in ON EARTH, than it has taken, or damaged beyond hope of repair.

There is no benefit in proving to you that religion has saved more people on earth. First of all, there are many different religions, and many of those religions were corrupt. Second of all, to a Christian, our life being saved on earth is not as important as being saved for eternity in heaven. Since you don’t believe in heaven, your argument here holds no grounds.

 

[yankee_doodle]

Oh my Lord here comes another one with the same attitude thinking he is making some self-proclaimed revelation and hailing it as if it is the saving truth to humanity. Did you even do your homework before making all these accusations? Well, perhaps you forgot. Nonetheless I and some others will give you answers shortly. Good night.

This brings to mind a great joke I seen one time. Two evangelists show up at your door & hand you a blank piece of paper … what are they?

Atheists of course

Not do we lack all the answers, we even possess the novel quality of admitting it

 

[humble_maid]

This brings to mind a great joke I seen one time. Two evangelists show up at your door & hand you a blank piece of paper … what are they?

Atheists of course

Not do we lack all the answers, we even possess the novel quality of admitting it

Well Yankee, you’re getting funnier everyday. Here in Canada we have the ‘Just For Laughs’ comedy show which brings together world renowned comedians. Imagine the laughs people would have if you were to perform in it?

On a more serious note, how do you think I should answer these accusations from your POV?
I know that you once seriously studied the faith from what I recall in one of your posts. You might even know more than me?

 

[yankee_doodle]

On a more serious note, how do you think I should answer these accusations from your POV?
I know that you once seriously studied the faith from what I recall in one of your posts. You might even know more than me?

I personally think if we’re going to devote our lives to something, and allow something to shape our views and how we perceive others … we should make sure its real.

Some people would rather not know; so it depends on how curious your really are (and how psychologically dependent you are on religion).

But wouldn’t it be nice not to question every thought you have & imagine there’s an invisible god reading your mind 24 hours a day? I mean talk about a privacy violation We get mad at the government for trying to detect emails between terrorists, yet the overwhelming majority of us don’t seem to mind a god peering in our every thought?

 

[PantheistsRule]

Hello

I see what you mean on heaven, I guess. It is just my personal opinion, seeing as I don’t believe in heaven, that there is no reason that while one person has 3 meals a day, someone else has 3 meals a week, or even a month, because of an action taken by the Catholic Church or allowed by the Church 400 years ago. For example, a large part of the mess in Africa is because of Catholic nations, and actions taken in God’s name. And of course, there were events like the Spanish Inquisition. Organized religion HAS helped many, but not NEARLY as many have been killed in its name, on this Earth at least. If there is a heaven, there isn’t any way you know who gets there anyhow, is there?

Of course, Catholocism isn’t the ONLY corrupt religion, so don’t think it’s only the Church i’m calling out, though they HAVE been one of the worst, in my opinion.

As for the Bible thing, you ARE right about Matthew, but his account his the least exaggerated, if I recall. Mark was written by a friend of Peter, Luke by a friend of Paul, and John is a bit debated, though often attributed to the apostle John by Christians. I remember hearing that John was written some 100 years after Jesus died, but I am not TOTALLY sure. I DID hear it from a nun, so… I don’t know There is no way to verify the identity of any author of any 2000 year old book, or that the records they provide are correct. The identities of the Biblical authors are very much debated, and other books giving differing accounts of Biblical events have been found, of course.

So, let’s agree to disagree about the faith stuff, eh?

Peace,
PantheistsRule

.

 

[humble_maid]

I personally think if we’re going to devote our lives to something, and allow something to shape our views and how we perceive others … we should make sure its real.

Some people would rather not know; so it depends on how curious your really are (and how psychologically dependent you are on religion).

But wouldn’t it be nice not to question every thought you have & imagine there’s an invisible god reading your mind 24 hours a day? I mean talk about a privacy violation We get mad at the government for trying to detect emails between terrorists, yet the overwhelming majority of us don’t seem to mind a god peering in our every thought?

Thank you for your honest opinion. But first how do you suppose we make sure its real? We can continually search for proof and when have we it, others will reject it even if there is unbiased, concrete evidence supporting it. What I am convinced of is that truth is a gift rather than an exact science or of human intellect alone. Truth is something someone is endowed with; a greater sense of being, connected to the whole. Wisdom can be found in many religions but truth belongs to One.

Whatever the motives for searching truth the individual must be diligent and study, remove all superstitions and negativity, and use reason as well as humility to truly understand the path that is in front of them. We all want to understand why we are here and for what purpose. We all want to live forever. Perhaps religion was a way to alleviate the harsh reality of life and death or perhaps there exists a truth given to man from the very beginning and ever since then man has been able to thwart, distort and perverse that truth in the name of pride and power.

As to your last comment about God seeing into your every thought, it is true. I don’t think of it as an invasion of privacy (well that depends on what you are thinking about) but rather how perceptive you are to God’s omniscience. Perhaps that is what a conscience is for.

Peace

 

[humble_maid]

Hello

I see what you mean on heaven, I guess. It is just my personal opinion, seeing as I don’t believe in heaven, that there is no reason that while one person has 3 meals a day, someone else has 3 meals a week, or even a month, because of an action taken by the Catholic Church or allowed by the Church 400 years ago. For example, a large part of the mess in Africa is because of Catholic nations, and actions taken in God’s name. And of course, there were events like the Spanish Inquisition. Organized religion HAS helped many, but not NEARLY as many have been killed in its name, on this Earth at least. If there is a heaven, there isn’t any way you know who gets there anyhow, is there?

Of course, Catholocism isn’t the ONLY corrupt religion, so don’t think it’s only the Church i’m calling out, though they HAVE been one of the worst, in my opinion.

As for the Bible thing, you ARE right about Matthew, but his account his the least exaggerated, if I recall. Mark was written by a friend of Peter, Luke by a friend of Paul, and John is a bit debated, though often attributed to the apostle John by Christians. I remember hearing that John was written some 100 years after Jesus died, but I am not TOTALLY sure. I DID hear it from a nun, so… I don’t know There is no way to verify the identity of any author of any 2000 year old book, or that the records they provide are correct. The identities of the Biblical authors are very much debated, and other books giving differing accounts of Biblical events have been found, of course.

So, let’s agree to disagree about the faith stuff, eh?

Peace,
PantheistsRule

.

Please excuse me Pantheist, if these are not accusations I don’t know what else is; unless you genuinely believe them to be true. If so, it is up to you to provide solid historical and statistical evidence that would make me believe you. In other words give me sources backing up what you claim.

If you are truly here to discuss then take on a proactive approach rather than an antagonistic approach. Maybe then I would take you seriously.

Peace of God be with you.

 

[josie_L]

Thank you for your honest opinion. But first how do you suppose we make sure its real? We can continually search for proof and when have we it, others will reject it even if there is unbiased, concrete evidence supporting it. What I am convinced of is that truth is a gift rather than an exact science or of human intellect alone. Truth is something someone is endowed with; a greater sense of being, connected to the whole. Wisdom can be found in many religions but truth belongs to One.

Whatever the motives for searching truth the individual must be diligent and study, remove all superstitions and negativity, and use reason as well as humility to truly understand the path that is in front of them. We all want to understand why we are here and for what purpose. We all want to live forever. Perhaps religion was a way to alleviate the harsh reality of life and death or perhaps there exists a truth given to man from the very beginning and ever since then man has been able to thwart, distort and perverse that truth in the name of pride and power.

As to your last comment about God seeing into your every thought, it is true. I don’t think of it as an invasion of privacy (well that depends on what you are thinking about) but rather how perceptive you are to God’s omniscience. Perhaps that is what a conscience is for.

Peace

That was very well said.

 

[srferdave]

Hello

I see what you mean on heaven, I guess. It is just my personal opinion, seeing as I don’t believe in heaven, that there is no reason that while one person has 3 meals a day, someone else has 3 meals a week, or even a month, because of an action taken by the Catholic Church or allowed by the Church 400 years ago. For example, a large part of the mess in Africa is because of Catholic nations, and actions taken in God’s name. And of course, there were events like the Spanish Inquisition. Organized religion HAS helped many, but not NEARLY as many have been killed in its name, on this Earth at least. If there is a heaven, there isn’t any way you know who gets there anyhow, is there?

Are you aware that majority of charity organizations are Catholic.

Of course, Catholocism isn’t the ONLY corrupt religion, so don’t think it’s only the Church i’m calling out, though they HAVE been one of the worst, in my opinion.

Well I believe if you really looked into the facts I’m certain your opinion will change.

As for the Bible thing, you ARE right about Matthew, but his account his the least exaggerated, if I recall. Mark was written by a friend of Peter, Luke by a friend of Paul, and John is a bit debated, though often attributed to the apostle John by Christians. I remember hearing that John was written some 100 years after Jesus died, but I am not TOTALLY sure. I DID hear it from a nun, so… I don’t know There is no way to verify the identity of any author of any 2000 year old book, or that the records they provide are correct. The identities of the Biblical authors are very much debated, and other books giving differing accounts of Biblical events have been found, of course.

There is a lot of evidence to verify the authors of the Bible.

Some writings were written from Jesus’ apostles and some were written several years after. I don’t see the point you are getting at.

So, let’s agree to disagree about the faith stuff, eh?

Agreed.

 

[yankee_doodle]

Thank you for your honest opinion. But first how do you suppose we make sure its real? We can continually search for proof and when have we it, others will reject it even if there is unbiased, concrete evidence supporting it. What I am convinced of is that truth is a gift rather than an exact science or of human intellect alone. Truth is something someone is endowed with; a greater sense of being, connected to the whole. Wisdom can be found in many religions but truth belongs to One.

Whatever the motives for searching truth the individual must be diligent and study, remove all superstitions and negativity, and use reason as well as humility to truly understand the path that is in front of them. We all want to understand why we are here and for what purpose. We all want to live forever. Perhaps religion was a way to alleviate the harsh reality of life and death or perhaps there exists a truth given to man from the very beginning and ever since then man has been able to thwart, distort and perverse that truth in the name of pride and power.

As to your last comment about God seeing into your every thought, it is true. I don’t think of it as an invasion of privacy (well that depends on what you are thinking about) but rather how perceptive you are to God’s omniscience. Perhaps that is what a conscience is for.

Peace

I guess my first question is how do you remove superstition when you adhere to a religion where you’re judged partially on your behavior? It’s psychologically impossible (I guess unless you’re into the faith alone idea, but even then it’s difficult). If you think life is a scorecard you cannot escape superstition.

Additionally, as I said in the other post, believers in I’m sure virtually every religion on earth uses platitudes like truth and wisdom and bla, bla, bla. I’m sorry, but it’s logically absurd. If someone tells me something my practical experience, education, and common sense tells me is absurd, but then says you can’t rely on your intellect for everything … what do you say in response to that?

If I say yes I can rely on my intellect for everything, and where I don’t – I rely on others whose intellect I respect … I’m accused of being my own god or relying on fallible humanity. Well if that’s how folks want to look at it … then fine. What can you say when you’re judged against an imaginary standard?

 

[yankee_doodle]

Are you aware that majority of charity organizations are Catholic)

I don’t believe that’s true? Not that it would matter, but do you have any evidence for this assertion?

 

[josie_L]

I don’t believe that’s true? Not that it would matter, but do you have any evidence for this assertion?

The Catholic Church is the most charitable institution in the world. I will have to give you the details tomorrow though as I’m tired. Good night.

 

[yankee_doodle]

The Catholic Church is the most charitable institution in the world. I will have to give you the details tomorrow though as I’m tired. Good night.

That’s not what the poster said, he said the majority of charitable organizations are Catholic (much different than saying the CC is the most charitable instution in the world, which I assume is true).

 

[srferdave]

That’s not what the poster said, he said the majority of charitable organizations are Catholic (much different than saying the CC is the most charitable instution in the world, which I assume is true).

I apologize than… what I meant to say is what Josie said. Which I believe is more important than my statement anyways.

 

[SonofMonica]

The following data is from 2005:

Forbes
Just Catholic Charities, Food for the Poor, Catholic Relief Services, St. Jude’s, and America’s Second Harvest alone total $5,570,000,000, which is greater than #1 on the list for America. Keep going down the list and you find Father Flanagan’s homes, Catholic Medical Mission Board, Covenant House, and more. Add the thousands of other charities, from Missionaries to the Poor, Amigos for Christ, soup kitchens, homeless shelters, to religious orders (like Missionaries of Charity) & individual parishes who often do their work in anonymity, and you will see some of the charitable works of the Catholic Church.

Business Week
(scroll down to “charities”)

Largest in Australia

 

[gearhead]

The following data is from 2005:

Forbes
Just Catholic Charities, Food for the Poor, Catholic Relief Services, St. Jude’s, and America’s Second Harvest alone total $5,570,000,000, which is greater than #1 on the list for America. Keep going down the list and you find Father Flanagan’s homes, Catholic Medical Mission Board, Covenant House, and more. Add the thousands of other charities, from Missionaries to the Poor, Amigos for Christ, soup kitchens, homeless shelters, to religious orders (like Missionaries of Charity) & individual parishes who often do their work in anonymity, and you will see some of the charitable works of the Catholic Church.

Business Week
(scroll down to “charities”)

Largest in Australia

While I agree that many Catholic charities do plenty of good work, I think it would be very difficult to separate out the money that goes to religious promotion, proselytization, evangelization and missionary work from the money that goes to hospitals, homeless shelters, emergency aid and other actual charitable activities.

 

[josie_L]

While I agree that many Catholic charities do plenty of good work, I think it would be very difficult to separate out the money that goes to religious promotion, proselytization, evangelization and missionary work from the money that goes to hospitals, homeless shelters, emergency aid and other actual charitable activities.

You do realize that Catholic charities provide annual reports (and/or pie charts that delineate how the money you give will be spent), furthermore, the money raised from these charities does not go towards proselytization, evangelization and/or missionary work if that is not it’s intended purpose, please don’t mistake us for the Salvation Army.

p.s. I found what you said to be quite insulting really, you could at the very least substantiate your claims before making them.