Problems w/ Atheism

[gearhead]

Nice quote up there.

Stalin starved more than 20 million to death to eradicate hunger. Mao’s cultural revolution murdered more than 50 million to improve its culture. Pol Pot murdered 3 million to create a perfect society. The list goes on and on. All of them atheist regimes that advanced towards “uniformity” and “without coercion”. Yet half of the fools and half of the hypocrites couldn’t figure out why the atheists in this thread are quoting Thomas Jefferson but failed to extoll the virtues of these atheist exemplars! It’s a pity these regimes spanned less than a hundred years only!

Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot are not “atheist exemplars”. Most atheists I know are opposed to imposing any sort of doctrine on an unwilling people, whether that doctrine is God-worship or leader-worship.

Maybe it would help if you considered the position of most modern, mainstream atheists to be something close to freethought. It’s not quite an accurate descriptor for all atheists, but at least it’s closer than the mistaken assumptions you’re apparently using for atheists for you to think that Stalin should be some sort of “atheist saint”.

 

[josie_L]

Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot are not “atheist exemplars”. Most atheists I know are opposed to imposing any sort of doctrine on an unwilling people, whether that doctrine is God-worship or leader-worship.

Maybe it would help if you considered the position of most modern, mainstream atheists to be something close to freethought. It’s not quite an accurate descriptor for all atheists, but at least it’s closer than the mistaken assumptions you’re apparently using for atheists for you to think that Stalin should be some sort of “atheist saint”.

And yet we’re constantly reminded by atheists/agnostics of all the evils committed by Christians (in a two thousand year span) as if this somehow describes what Christianity is.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

The thread Can Atheists go to Heaven? Are they sinners? was off topic so I wanted to continue the conversation on this thread.

You claim that God does not exist. You claim one thing, I claim another. One of us is right and one of us is wrong. I showed you proof. Now show me yours. In other words convince that you are right. Don’t tell me you are right because I have no evidence. I showed you evidence and you choose not to believe it.

Go through those sites a little more carefully. You can not but those arguments into one statement as you’ve stated above. There are many arguments.

The problem with the anti-atheist case is that:​

• Theists can’t agree on the number or character of their god or gods
• There is no way to judge between the competing claims
• Christians themselves are divided - yet are equally certain of the absolute rightness of their competing & contradictory claims
• Christian history gives the lie to the exalted claims made by Christians
• The behaviour of these people has often been as cruel as or crueller than that of the unbelievers they criticise
• Christians have treated Christians as their worst enemies
• The words of the Christian God can often only be explained by being explained away
• The dogmatic claims made for the CG are not borne out by experience: as the Shoah shows

All the subtle reasoning of Christians cannot alter these facts. How do they propose to explain them ?

 

[josie_L]

The problem with the anti-atheist case is that:​

• Theists can’t agree on the number or character of their god or gods
• There is no way to judge between the competing claims
• Christians themselves are divided - yet are equally certain of the absolute rightness of their competing & contradictory claims
• Christian history gives the lie to the exalted claims made by Christians
• The behaviour of these people has often been as cruel as or crueller than that of the unbelievers they criticise
• Christians have treated Christians as their worst enemies
• The words of the Christian God can often only be explained by being explained away
• The dogmatic claims made for the CG are not borne out by experience: as the Shoah shows

All the subtle reasoning of Christians cannot alter these facts. How do they propose to explain them ?

No one that I’m aware of on these forums is trying to convert atheists/agnostics so the question of contradictory claims is moot, furthermore, many an atheist in the past has converted to Christianity, the fact is their position of disbelief is not as sound as they would like us to believe (they state ours is not and so we go back and forth arguing our different perspectives). Moreover, you make it sound like it’s impossible to reach a conclusion and yet with God anything is possible. Our best approach Gottle of Geer is prayer and living out our Christian faith (I think all Christians can agree on this) but in the mean time I also plan to defend my faith.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

If no god exists then what is the basis for morals? Why would I be wicked for killing my neighbor? Why should I love my neighbor when it may benifit me to kill him, take his money, his property, his food, etc? A purely secular society has no grounds for morality if God is out of the picture.​

Any answer an atheist will provide (other than agreeing that they have no grounds for morals) only proves that they were originally created in the image of God and in their heart of hearts knows there are morals because they were created a moral being.

“A purely secular society has no grounds for morality if God is out of the picture” is an assumption in the interest of theism for which there is no basis - nothing more. Theistic societies - Islam, Christianity - are not famed for their morality, compassion, or peacefulness, to put it mildly. What harm can atheism do, that Christianity hasn’t ?​

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

No one that I’m aware of on these forums is trying to convert atheists/agnostics so the question of contradictory claims is moot, furthermore, many an atheist in the past has converted to Christianity, the fact is their position of disbelief is not as sound as they would like us to believe (they state ours is not and so we go back and forth arguing our different perspectives). Moreover, you make it sound like it’s impossible to reach a conclusion and yet with God anything is possible.

So why has none been reached ? All we see are conflicting religions & Churches. There are plenty of conversions from Christianity, and from theism. Ex-Christians can and do say all you do - against and not for Christianity. Christianity is one fallible, limited, out-dated philosophy among others, ISTM.​

Our best approach Gottle of Geer is prayer and living out our Christian faith (I think all Christians can agree on this) but in the mean time I also plan to defend my faith.

How does that differ from what a Hindu or Muslim, Baptist or Orthodox, might say ? They too pray and they too defend.​

 

[josie_L]

*Cum nimis absurdum was a papal bull issued by Pope Paul IV dated July 14, 1555. It takes its name from its first words:[1] “Since it is absurd and utterly inconvenient that the Jews, who through their own fault were condemned by God to eternal slavery…”

The bull placed religious and economic restrictions on Jews in the Papal States. The bull renewed anti-Jewish legislation and subjected Jews to various degradations and restrictions on their personal freedom. Under the bull, Jewish males were forced to wear a pointed yellow hat, and Jewish females a yellow kerchief (see yellow badge). Jews were also forbidden to own real estate or practice medicine among Christians. The bull also created the Roman Ghetto, where the Jews of Rome, who had lived freely since antiquity, were segregated in a walled quarter with three gates that were locked at night. Jews were also restricted to one synagogue per city.*

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cum_nimis_absurdum

An excerpt taken from “The Myth of Hitler’s Pope” (Chapter two “Popes in Defense of the Jews”) by RABBI David Dalin:

"The historical fact is that popes have often spoken out in defense of the Jews, have protected them during times of persecution and pogroms, and have protected their right to worship freely in their synagogues. Popes have traditionally defended Jews from wild anti-semitic allegations. Popes regularly condemned anti-semites who sought to incite violence against Jews. Popes employed Jewish physicians in the Vatican and counted Jews among their personal confidants and friends.

As the great Cambridge University Jewish scholar Israel Abrahams noted in his monumental work, Jewish Life in the Middle Ages, first published in 1896, it "was a tradition with the popes of Rome to protect the Jews who were near at hand, " especially those living in Italy and Spain. Moreover, notes historian Thomas Hadden, “of all medieval institutions, the [Catholic] Church stood alone in Europe in its consistent condemnation of Jewish persecutions.” Throughout the Middle Ages, Rome and the papal states "were the only places in [Western] Europe where the Jews were at all times free from attacks or expulsions . . . .

By the time of his death in 1970, Roth had achieved international renown as the most prolific and widely read Jewish historian of his generation, and as the century’s preeminent Jewish scholar of Italian Jewish history and the history of papal-Jewish relations. Time and again, throughout his many writings and lectures, Roth pointed out that during eras of rampant anti-semitism, the popes in Rome were often the only world leader to raise their voices in defense and support of the Jews, “of all the dynasties of Europe,” noted Roth, “the papacy not only refused to persecute the Jews . . . but through the ages popes were protectors of the Jews . . . The truth is that the popes and the Catholic Church from the earliest days of the Church were never responsible for physical persecution of Jews and only Rome, among the capitals of the World, is free from having been a place of Jewish tragedy. For this we Jews must have gratitude.”

Also:

As Jewish scholar Michael Berenbaum has noted, Goldhagen omits all mentions of the countervailing traditions of tolerance within Roman Catholic thought, past and present. He misrepresents the early church leaders who advocated tolerance toward the Jews, and his skewed treatment of the Saint Augustine’s views of the Jews and Judaism is especially appalling. Similarly Goldhagen’s unsubstantiated claim that "there is no difference in kin between the Church’s anti-judaism and its offshoot European anti-semitism that led to the Holocaust is as unsophiscated and wrong as statement as someone claiming to be a historian could possibly make. (Also taken from the

edit: please note that you can find and access this book on Google (there are many pages for which you can read through, chapter 1 and 2 is especially enlightening).

 

[josie_L]

So why has none been reached ? All we see are conflicting religions & Churches. There are plenty of conversions from Christianity, and from theism. Ex-Christians can and do say all you do - against and not for Christianity. Christianity is one fallible, limited, out-dated philosophy among others, ISTM.​

How does that differ from what a Hindu or Muslim, Baptist or Orthodox, might say ? They too pray and they too defend.​

Because people are fallible and use their own reason instead of relying on God for guidance, much like yourself Gottle of Geer. Furthermore, and I stress yet again, no one here is converting the Atheists/Agnostics to Christianity, and moreover my debate has been more defensive than offensive when dealing with non-believers (it seems they have a point or two to make). Frankly, they can believe what they wish (free will), however, I am surely allowed to debate the existence of God or do you question that to Gottle?

 

[yankee_doodle]

Nice quote up there.

Stalin starved more than 20 million to death to eradicate hunger. Mao’s cultural revolution murdered more than 50 million to improve its culture. Pol Pot murdered 3 million to create a perfect society. The list goes on and on. All of them atheist regimes that advanced towards “uniformity” and “without coercion”. Yet half of the fools and half of the hypocrites couldn’t figure out why the atheists in this thread are quoting Thomas Jefferson but failed to extoll the virtues of these atheist exemplars! It’s a pity these regimes spanned less than a hundred years only!

Other atheists, agnostics, and deists: Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, Winston Churchill, Albert Einstein, Benjamin Franklin, Alexander Hamilton, Voltaire, Immanuel Kant, Bill Gates, Adam Smith, Warran Buffet … hmmm, I think I’m in pretty good company.

As for the commi psychopaths you listed, when you think about modern “WESTERN” countries that said bye bye to your invisible friend, think Sweden, Finland, France, etc. Countries rated among the happiest on earth (well, don’t know about France), with some of the highest per capita incomes, lowest poverty and imprisonment rates, etc. etc.

So keep singing that old tired tune, Stalin, Pol Pot, bla, bla, bla. It won’t make your fairy tales true and it won’t bother smart people

 

[yankee_doodle]

An excerpt taken from “The Myth of Hitler’s Pope” (Chapter two “Popes in Defense of the Jews”) by RABBI David Dalin:

"The historical fact is that popes have often spoken out in defense of the Jews, have protected them during times of persecution and pogroms, and have protected their right to worship freely in their synagogues. Popes have traditionally defended Jews from wild anti-semitic allegations. Popes regularly condemned anti-semites who sought to incite violence against Jews. Popes employed Jewish physicians in the Vatican and counted Jews among their personal confidants and friends.

As the great Cambridge University Jewish scholar Israel Abrahams noted in his monumental work, Jewish Life in the Middle Ages, first published in 1896, it "was a tradition with the popes of Rome to protect the Jews who were near at hand, " especially those living in Italy and Spain. Moreover, notes historian Thomas Hadden, “of all medieval institutions, the [Catholic] Church stood alone in Europe in its consistent condemnation of Jewish persecutions.” Throughout the Middle Ages, Rome and the papal states "were the only places in [Western] Europe where the Jews were at all times free from attacks or expulsions . . . .

By the time of his death in 1970, Roth had achieved international renown as the most prolific and widely read Jewish historian of his generation, and as the century’s preeminent Jewish scholar of Italian Jewish history and the history of papal-Jewish relations. Time and again, throughout his many writings and lectures, Roth pointed out that during eras of rampant anti-semitism, the popes in Rome were often the only world leader to raise their voices in defense and support of the Jews, “of all the dynasties of Europe,” noted Roth, “the papacy not only refused to persecute the Jews . . . but through the ages popes were protectors of the Jews . . . The truth is that the popes and the Catholic Church from the earliest days of the Church were never responsible for physical persecution of Jews and only Rome, among the capitals of the World, is free from having been a place of Jewish tragedy. For this we Jews must have gratitude.”

Also:

As Jewish scholar Michael Berenbaum has noted, Goldhagen omits all mentions of the countervailing traditions of tolerance within Roman Catholic thought, past and present. He misrepresents the early church leaders who advocated tolerance toward the Jews, and his skewed treatment of the Saint Augustine’s views of the Jews and Judaism is especially appalling. Similarly Goldhagen’s unsubstantiated claim that "there is no difference in kin between the Church’s anti-judaism and its offshoot European anti-semitism that led to the Holocaust is as unsophiscated and wrong as statement as someone claiming to be a historian could possibly make. (Also taken from the

edit: please note that you can find and access this book on Google (there are many pages for which you can read through, chapter 1 and 2 is especially enlightening).

Historians generally see the policy of Pius XII as consistent with a longstanding tradition of Vatican diplomacy. During political storms of the depression years, this tradition was interpreted by Eugenio Pacelli, Cardinal Secretary of State under Pius XI and later to become the wartime Pope. Pacelli exemplified a profound commitment to the spiritual and pastoral mission of the Holy See; he saw his role as avoiding association with power blocs and forging diplomatic links with conservative or even fascist regimes. As fascism extended its influence in Europe during the 1930s, the Vatican remained aloof, occasionally challenging fascist ideology when it touched on important matters of Catholic doctrine or the legal position of the church, but unwilling to interfere with what it considered to be purely secular concerns. Beyond this, the Vatican found most aspects of right-wing regimes congenial, appreciating their patronage of the church, their challenge to Marxism, and their frequent championing of a conservative social vision.

“For the professing Christian, of all the questions that arise out of the study of the Third Reich and the Holocaust the most terrible are these: What were the churches doing? How could such a monstrous crime be committed in the heart of Christendom by baptized Roman Catholics, Protestants, and Eastern Orthodox who were never rebuked, let alone excommunicated? Where were the Christians?” —Franklin H. Littell, “Foreword” in Bonifas, Prisoner 20-801: A French National in the Nazi Labor Camps, p. vii.

jewishvirtuallibrary.org/…st/Marrus.html

 

[yankee_doodle]

Eugenio Pacelli, then Secretary of State, and German cardinals played a central role in drafting the 1937 encyclical “Mit brennender Sorge” (“With Burning Concern”), which was a forceful condemnation of National Socialism. Soon after he was elected Pope, Pacelli met with the same group of German cardinals to discuss how they should deal with Nazism. In order to understand Pacelli’s evolving policies as Secretary of State and as pope, can we see the drafts of Mit brennender Sorge, or any other relevant material pertaining to that encyclical or his meeting in 1939 with the German cardinals after his election?

In 1938, after the Kristallnacht pogrom, only one prominent German prelate, Bernhard Lichtenberg, rector of Saint Hedwig’s cathedral in Berlin, had the courage to condemn the outrages publicly. Pacelli was given a detailed report by the papal nuncio in Berlin but there appears to have been no official reaction by the Vatican. This issue is especially important because Archbishop Amleto Cicognani, Apostolic Delegate to the United States certainly informed the Vatican of the public broadcast of the American bishops’ condemnation of Kristallnacht. Do the archives reveal internal discussions among Vatican officials, including Pacelli, about the appropriate reaction to this pogrom?

In June 1938 Pope Pius XI commissioned Father John LaFarge S.J. to draft an encyclical on racism and antisemitism. The editors of the ADSS affirmed that nothing was found in the Vatican archives on this subject.13 However, in an article that appeared in the Osservatore Romano in 1973, Father Burkhart Schneider, one of the ADSS editors, stated that “the texts prepared, as well as many on other topics, have ended up in the silence of the archives14”. May we review the drafts and materials relating to that document from the archives?

A substantial part of Volume 6 is devoted to the aborted efforts to obtain Brazilian visas for Catholics of Jewish origin. Numerous questions have been raised concerning the failure of this project. In addition, it is known that a part of the money destined for the refugees came from funds

jewishwebsight.com/bin/articl…ea=ar&ID=AR703

Cum nimis absurdum was a papal bull issued by Pope Paul IV dated July 14, 1555. It takes its name from its first words:[1] “Since it is absurd and utterly inconvenient that the Jews, who through their own fault were condemned by God to eternal slavery…”

The bull placed religious and economic restrictions on Jews in the Papal States. The bull renewed anti-Jewish legislation and subjected Jews to various degradations and restrictions on their personal freedom. Under the bull, Jewish males were forced to wear a pointed yellow hat, and Jewish females a yellow kerchief (see yellow badge). Jews were also forbidden to own real estate or practice medicine among Christians. The bull also created the Roman Ghetto, where the Jews of Rome, who had lived freely since antiquity, were segregated in a walled quarter with three gates that were locked at night. Jews were also restricted to one synagogue per city.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cum_nimis_absurdum

 

[josie_L]

*Eugenio Pacelli, then Secretary of State, and German cardinals played a central role in drafting the 1937 encyclical “Mit brennender Sorge” (“With Burning Concern”), which was a forceful condemnation of National Socialism. Soon after he was elected Pope, Pacelli met with the same group of German cardinals to discuss how they should deal with Nazism. In order to understand Pacelli’s evolving policies as Secretary of State and as pope, can we see the drafts of Mit brennender Sorge, or any other relevant material pertaining to that encyclical or his meeting in 1939 with the German cardinals after his election?

In 1938, after the Kristallnacht pogrom, only one prominent German prelate, Bernhard Lichtenberg, rector of Saint Hedwig’s cathedral in Berlin, had the courage to condemn the outrages publicly. Pacelli was given a detailed report by the papal nuncio in Berlin but there appears to have been no official reaction by the Vatican. This issue is especially important because Archbishop Amleto Cicognani, Apostolic Delegate to the United States certainly informed the Vatican of the public broadcast of the American bishops’ condemnation of Kristallnacht. Do the archives reveal internal discussions among Vatican officials, including Pacelli, about the appropriate reaction to this pogrom?

In June 1938 Pope Pius XI commissioned Father John LaFarge S.J. to draft an encyclical on racism and antisemitism. The editors of the ADSS affirmed that nothing was found in the Vatican archives on this subject.13 However, in an article that appeared in the Osservatore Romano in 1973, Father Burkhart Schneider, one of the ADSS editors, stated that “the texts prepared, as well as many on other topics, have ended up in the silence of the archives14”. May we review the drafts and materials relating to that document from the archives?

A substantial part of Volume 6 is devoted to the aborted efforts to obtain Brazilian visas for Catholics of Jewish origin. Numerous questions have been raised concerning the failure of this project. In addition, it is known that a part of the money destined for the refugees came from funds*

jewishwebsight.com/bin/articles.cgi?Area=ar&ID=AR703

Taken yet again from the book by Rabbi David Dalin:

In a pastoral letter of February 10, 1931 prepared at the behest of the Vatican and addressed to the Catholic clergy of Germany, the bishops of eight Bavarian dioceses stated that the rising National Socialist party of Adolf Hitler rejects “the basic premise” of Catholic teaching. Moreover, the Bavarian bishops "recognized the fact that the ideology were contrary to Christian teaching. In Nov. 1931 the chief Rabbi of Milan on a personal visit to the Vatican thanked the pope for his appeals against religions persecution and his continuing support for Italy’s Jews . . . In one of his annual Christmas addresses to the college of Cardinals, he vigorously denounced both Italian and German Fascism and described the swastika as “a cross hostile to the cross of Christ”. On March 12, 1937, Pius XI issued his famous anti-nazi encyclical Mit Brennender Sorge. Addressed to the German bishops and read in it’s entirety from the pulpits of all Germany a Catholic churches, Pope Piux’s encyclical produced an angry response from the Nazi government in Berlin . . The Nazis certainly regarded Mit Brennender Sorge as decidely pro-Jewish statement and they launched a vitriolic counterattack on the papacy.

By the way what part of "the Vatican had to remain silent because of how the Nazis retaliated (rounding Jewish converts and killing them was a thing the papacy was trying to avoid) do you not understand)? And I’d be interested to know what happend to the prelate of Berlin for speaking out against the Nazis, probably joined the other (over) 3000 priests and pastors already imprisoned in Dachau? You know you would think that after having helped more than or about 860 000 Jews you would think actions speak louder than words, but I guess when you have an agenda which includes totally discrediting the Church, common sense goes out the window.

 

[yankee_doodle]

Taken yet again from the book by Rabbi David Dalin:

OK I think we can agree you’ve found a rabbi who likes the CC and thinks it did a commendable job dealing with Nazi atrocities; and there’s a bunch of people (including other Jews and Jewish organizations) who disagree with this individual and who have also written scholarly essays and books on the issue.

No doubt the church did hide some Jews. Notwithstanding those efforts once the Nazi’s were in full swing, and became dominant on the European continent (and shown what they were capable of) the church didn’t take any public action. I’m not sure if I necessarily blame the church, except insofar as Christianity (particularly Catholicism) probably did, for the most part, plant the seeds of antisemitism in Europe (with centuries of antisemitic rhetoric and actions).

Frankly I’m really not sure what to make out of these facts. I suppose it’s an important rhetorical point for Catholics, since many of you guys like to imagine your church has had clean hands its entire history

Anyway, as you know this has nothing to do with my own views toward religion, so it’s not really something that interests me all that much

 

[humble_maid]

**THE GOOD SAMARITAN: JEWISH PRAISE FOR POPE PIUS XII ** Dimitri Cavalli

Here is another site referring to Pope Pius XII regarding his actions during the WWII crisis.
ewtn.com/library/issues/pius12gs.htm

Less than two months after World War II broke out, on October 27, Pius XII issued his first encyclical, Summi Pontificatus. On the same day, the New York-based Jewish Telegraphic Agency, the equivalent of the Associated Press, reported that, “the unqualified condemnation which Pope Pius XII heaped on totalitarian, racist and materialistic theories of government in his encyclical Summi Pontificatus caused a profound stir… Although it had been expected that the Pope would attack ideologies hostile to the Catholic Church, few observers had expected so outspoken a document…”

Pius XII’s decision to appoint Luigi Cardinal Maglione as the Vatican’s new Secretary of State also brought favorable reactions. The March 16, 1939 Zionist Review in London said that the Cardinal’s appointment “confirms the view that the new Pope means to conduct an anti-Nazi and anti-Fascist policy.”

According to Pinchas Lapide’s 1967 book, Three Popes and the Jews, the Vatican Information Office helped tens of thousands of Jews locate missing relatives in Europe. One example in which the Vatican assisted Jews in locating their families is that of Mr. Jacob Freedman, a Boston tailor, whose story was published on January 26 in the Canadian Jewish Chronicle.

The Pope’s detractors insist that he didn’t go far enough, and should have condemned the Nazis by name. But the Nazis understood the Pope very clearly. “In a manner never known before the Pope has repudiated the National Socialist New European Order,” complained a January 22, 1943 report by the Reich Central Security Office. “Here he is virtually accusing the German people of injustice towards the Jews, and makes himself the mouthpiece of the Jewish war criminals.” (Anthony Rhodes, The Vatican in the Age of Dictators (1973), pp. 272-273).

On April 16, 1943, the *Australian Jewish News *published a brief article about Cardinal Gerlier, who had strongly opposed the deportations of French Jews, and was sheltering Jewish children. The article quoted the cardinal as saying that he was obeying Pius XII’s instructions by continuing to oppose France’s anti-Semitic measures.

These are but a few of the excerpts found on the site. They are not fabrications of the Church but real articles written by others and Jews who defended the Pope and the measures he took for the safe-guarding of his children and those who were being persecuted. Many would object because they feel He should of done more but probably these would be the same people who would accuse God of being absent for not destroying evil. Unfortunately, pride and self- preservation keep people from doing what is right. But in this instance, the Pope acted vigilantly and thought about the repercussions his decisions would have had should he declare war on the Nazis. He was obedient to God and acted in servitude to humanity as best as he could.

It is even more unfortunate, that many Jews, misguided Christians (Protestants and self-hating Catholics) attack the Vatican when it is clear that many tens of thousands of Jews and others were saved by the Church’s intervention. These are hard facts not glib lies.

One must not forget the movie “Schindler’s List”. Here we have Oskar Schindler who is a party member of the National Socialist Party, and a war profiteer. He befriends war criminals in order to keep his factory working so as to save as many Jews as possible by redirecting their fate from Auschwitz. Nobody questionned Schindler that he kept silent and did not pour any outcries to the Nazis and that he initially started the business through bribes and for profit at the hands of jews. Yet, from an elaborate scheme he managed to save lives; over 1100 jews. Many Catholics resorted to almost the same measures in order to placate the enemy and set about their underground plans to save others, especially jews. One of many examples of such catholic heroism is that of Irene Sandleryoutube.com/watch?v=ZXP5Gvxqgsgand Karol Weirich youtube.com/watch?v=ZXP5Gvxqgsg
I urge all people of different faiths and backgrounds to examine the information aforementioned and assess for themselves the truth. It is injurious and ignorant to judge the catholic church and accuse her of having remained silent and that her children were merely spectators when there is substantiating proof of otherwise. Of course I am well aware of the notoriety caused by the faithless Catholics, even those of who bore priestly titles; their fate will befall them by the hand of God. To those who bore witness of God’s Love and sacrificed their lives to save others; may you rest in the Lord’s peace.

Peace be with you all and God Bless

 

[josie_L]

OK I think we can agree you’ve found a rabbi who likes the CC and thinks it did a commendable job dealing with Nazi atrocities; and there’s a bunch of people (including other Jews and Jewish organizations) who disagree with this individual and who have also written scholarly essays and books on the issue.

No doubt the church did hide some Jews. Notwithstanding those efforts once the Nazi’s were in full swing, and became dominant on the European continent (and shown what they were capable of) the church didn’t take any public action. I’m not sure if I necessarily blame the church, except insofar as Christianity (particularly Catholicism) probably did, for the most part, plant the seeds of antisemitism in Europe (with centuries of antisemitic rhetoric and actions).

Frankly I’m really not sure what to make out of these facts. I suppose it’s an important rhetorical point for Catholics, since many of you guys like to imagine your church has had clean hands its entire history

Anyway, as you know this has nothing to do with my own views toward religion, so it’s not really something that interests me all that much

New Evidence Says Pius XII Helped Jews

Foundation to Publish 2,300 Pages of Documents

NEW YORK, JUNE 15, 2009 (Zenit.org).- A foundation that promotes interreligious dialogue announced that it has more than 2,300 pages of original documents illustrating Pope Pius XII’s efforts to help Jews in the face of Nazism.

Gary Krupp, president of the New York-based Pave the Way Foundation, affirmed this today in a statement to ZENIT, and stated that the documents from the years 1940-1945 will be made available to the public for research.

The president, himself a Jew, reported that these papers, found through the organization’s private research, give “strong support to the argument that Pope Pius XII – Eugenio Pacelli – worked diligently to save Jews from Nazi tyranny.”

As a part of a private research project, the foundation found the documents in a monastery in Avellino, Italy. The foundation’s statement noted the possibility that “many more vital documents could be found in larger dioceses, if researchers simply took the time to look.”

Krupp continued: "Since presumed history has been the justification for hatred, vendettas and wars throughout civilized human existence, aren’t the historians charged with a moral and vital responsibility to get the story straight? People are killed every day because of historical vendettas.

"A personal disappointment resulting from our research was the realization that we all have been let down by many who represent themselves as historians.

“These individuals, with private agendas, have simply failed to research the evidence of this era properly and have remained silent when the absurd fanatics manipulate the truth.”

If our foundation, he said, as “amateur fact finders, can uncover so much information, how is it that the so-called historians and academic institutions have allowed the 46-year-old assessment of Pius XII to continue unchallenged, impacting the opinions and relationships of over one billion people?”

Finding the truth

The foundation will offer these documents for worldwide historical study on its Web site.

The statement acknowledged a “universal academic response” to “reserve judgment of Pacelli until the Vatican opens the un-catalogued section of full papacy of Pius XII.”

It added, “The result of this academic negligence has negatively impacted the opinions and relationships of over one billion people.”

The foundation also reported its findings from research on some of the Vatican Secret Archives documents.

It noted the discovery of “many examples of the direct actions and of the pastoral ministry of Eugenio Pacelli to save Jews from Nazi tyranny” as well as “documented proof” of his “direct intercession to protect the Jews of Palestine from the Ottoman Turks in 1917 and his encouraging the idea of the establishment of a Jewish homeland in Palestine in 1925.”

The statement observed that “universal” gratitude to Pius XII was “radically changed” five years after his death, through a fictional play by Rolf Hochhuth called “The Deputy.”

The foundation reported the “confirmed testimony that this play was part of a KGB plot called ‘seat 12,’ which was strategically planned to destroy the reputation of the Catholic Church.”

This research, the foundation stated, supports the “undeniable conclusion” that “Pope Pius XII was a true hero” of World War II.

It concluded: “Quite possibly he saved more Jews than all of the world’s religious and political leaders combined. Moreover, in the true spirit of heroism, he did all this with the direct threat of German rifles leveled 200 yards beneath his very windows.”

zenit.org/rssenglish-26179

Here’s the website (started by Gary Krupp, a Jew), Pave the Way Foundation: www.ptwf.org

 

[yankee_doodle]

I think it’s clear that Pacelli did try to help Jews (although in some cases, like the Brazilian case, it turns out they were Jewish converts to Catholicism, not exactly Jews … but I digress). The former pope did express public concern for national socialism when it was on the rise (and before he became pope). But after the Third Reich solidified its power in Europe no one the continent dared come out publically against Hitler. Pacelli had to take to covert action to try and help as many Jews as I suppose he could.

Again I don’t think this in itself says anything bad about the CC (and frankly this seems like a nonissue to me, but nevertheless you folks persist with me on this issue like I’m supposed to give a hoot ). Whether or not the pope or church did anything is irrelevant (it’s clear to me the church didn’t support the Nazi regime, and I don’t think I’ve ever had any misconceptions on this issue).

The might church exaggerate its role a little bit (it certainly seems to use every opportunity to brag about it – like it has a guilty conscience when it comes to its treatment of Jews), while I’m sure some groups (Jewish or otherwise) don’t acknowledge what the church did in fact do.

Can’t you guys go find one of these groups to badger with this stuff? One more time (I tried saying this nicely like a half dozen times) I DON’T CARE.

 

[josie_L]

Can’t you guys go find one of these groups to badger with this stuff? One more time (I tried saying this nicely like a half dozen times) I DON’T CARE.

Let’s turn the tables shall we, “Can’t you find some other group to badger with your stuff (and I know that you don’t care but I didn’t post what I did for your benefit)”?

 

[humble_maid]

Quote by Yankee #261:
Oh please, Christianity (who at one point endorsed slavery, stood silent while Hitler did his thing, and is the biggest current obstruction to equal rights) would now like to appeal to Nazi paranoia? Whatever …

May I remind you why we deliberated on this subject dear Yankee, simply because of your post mentioned above. If you don’t care why did you make such a statement? Do you do it to provoke us or do you really believe all these lies fed to you by the anti-catholic media?

Now that we have proven our point, you simply brush it off. Please be more cautious when making such statements. I realize that you are passionate about what you believe but so are we; let us maintain a semblance of respect.

 

[yankee_doodle]

Quote by Yankee #261:
Oh please, Christianity (who at one point endorsed slavery, stood silent while Hitler did his thing, and is the biggest current obstruction to equal rights) would now like to appeal to Nazi paranoia? Whatever …

May I remind you why we deliberated on this subject dear Yankee, simply because of your post mentioned above. If you don’t care why did you make such a statement? Do you do it to provoke us or do you really believe all these lies fed to you by the anti-catholic media?

Maybe it was hyperbole to say what I said, but it wasn’t technically inaccurate (nor do I buy into your paranoid world view – the evil media … the deluded, oops I mean Christian, right has plenty of its own media resources to peddle it’s ancient absurdities).

Now that we have proven our point, you simply brush it off. Please be more cautious when making such statements. I realize that you are passionate about what you believe but so are we; let us maintain a semblance of respect.

all you’ve proven is the depth of delusion the religious live under … nothing else.

 

[humble_maid]

Maybe it was hyperbole to say what I said, but it wasn’t technically inaccurate (nor do I buy into your paranoid world view – the evil media … the deluded, oops I mean Christian, right has plenty of its own media resources to peddle it’s ancient absurdities).

all you’ve proven is the depth of delusion the religious live under … nothing else.

Some delusions are better than others. Thank you for your gracious response.

Remeber you and your family were christian once. Maybe some of them still are? So don’t be so quick to put down those who believe.

By the way we did prove that Pope Pius XII is innocent of the alleged accusations; I wasn’t trying to make you buy into the religion but state a fact. You seem angry about that.

Peace