Problems with dogmas regarding Adam and Eve

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You are hardly dead! Now I believe the op really needs an answer about the pre sin state of Adam and Eve, their mortality status, and how it all relates to both Sanctifying and Habitual Grace, from someone educated in this , rather then people like us who attempt to interpret it. This is really quite a complex question.

I don’t believe a Priest would suggest he or she gets an answer from the forums.m

I have posted a link to the Catechism.

I ask my ’ go to’ Priests any questions I have if attempting to understand things.
These forums have taught me that a lot of things are misinterpreted, or just wrong. Or people cut n paste tomes that don’t really help if they cannot be discussed.

It’s quite a minefield of information and misinformation. But that’s human nature.

The forums can be great to start people on a mission to discover or contemplate a concept.
As I said in post 32: "I have a few ideas as to how to put together your puzzle. I was responding to your post 14 which begins the issue of Sanctifying Grace.

It so happens that the State of Sanctifying Grace is a key point for solving the “Problems with dogmas regarding Adam and Eve.” Some years back, I used CCC 375 as evidence of Adam’s State of Sanctifying Grace.

Feminine logic was also used. 😉

Going back to the CCC section you were looking at, CCC 1997 is the cross reference in the margin for CCC 375. There is also a reference to CCC 260. In addition, there is the use of small print. CCC 20-21 explains the use of small print. Another skill is to use the CCC Index of Citations starting on page 689. Plus, we cannot forget the powerful Genesis 1: 27

This thread is not a walk in the park.
 
Therein we find our solution to your problem: Just as God gave Adam the gift of immortality, but that gift was rejected, Jesus would have had the gift of immortality – not as ‘human nature’, but as ‘gift of God’ – but Jesus gave up that gift in order that we might be able to attain to eternal life.
Small comment.
Jesus did not need the gift of immortality. He was already the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity.
 
Ok that is a better answer then i have gotten so far.
👍 You’re welcome!
Some other thoughts does that mean Jesus would have never died if he was never crucified?? Like could live on earth for the last 2000 years if he wished. Could he lived until today and then been killed today??
Ahh… speculative theology – always a fun game to play! 😉

OK… here’s my off-the-cuff thought: if Christ doesn’t give up His life for us… then there’s no salvation and no possibility of attaining to heaven, right? So… no: Jesus not only “would never have died”, but also, He never would “never [be] crucified.” That was His mission. He fulfilled it.

Could he have lived till today? Sure. But that, too, would have been problematic. I’ll refer to you Herbert’s Dune novels for one idea of what happens when a ‘God-man’ lives among us for generations and generations. (Hint: it’s not a good thing, and it leads to coercive discipleship, rather than the acceptance of Christ in love and faith that He wishes of us.)
But my main point is about adam having an immortal body, the narrative itself just based on the text seems to indicate adam only received immortality upon eating from the tree of life. He was not created with immortality.
Two thoughts:

First, if we’re talking about the source of immortality for Adam, it’s not the “tree of life” – it’s the one who created the tree of life and provided it to Adam! In other words, the source of eternal life isn’t a tree, but rather, is God.

Second, if we see the the first chapters of Genesis as a sort of allegory – that is, expressing truths through the use of various figures – then we see the ‘tree of life’ as an allegory for God’s gift of immortality to the first humans. In the story, then, this gift is only accessible until these first persons sin. Once they sin, the consequence is that they must leave that state of life in which they have access to these gifts.

It seems that your concern is whether Adam was created with immortality. I’d say that the answer is both ‘yes’ and ‘no’. Adam is created in the “image and likeness” of God; that is, he has an immortal soul. So… yes. Humans are implicitly immortal. However, Adam is a body/soul composite, and the nature of physical, created things is that these physical bodies die. So… no. Humans are created with human nature, so implicitly, he will experience physical corruption.

And, as we’ve said, the first humans also received preternatural gifts from God. The very notion is that they were gifts, and not part of our nature.
Death only becomes certain after he sins.
“On the day that you eat it you will surely die”
Before he sins he has a good chance of not dying cause he could eat from the tree of life at anytime.
I would answer that the ‘death’ Adam inherits as a result of the Fall isn’t physical death, but spiritual death. His loss of friendship with God means that he cannot experience eternal life with God in heaven. That’s the real loss that humans incur through sin. That’s what Jesus regains for us!
 
Ok that is a better answer then i have gotten so far.
Some other thoughts does that mean Jesus would have never died if he was never crucified?? Like could live on earth for the last 2000 years if he wished. Could he lived until today and then been killed today??

However this i guess would be the Christ chose to die solution which i can say it’s possible.

But my main point is about adam having an immortal body, the narrative itself just based on the text seems to indicate adam only received immortality upon eating from the tree of life. He was not created with immortality.

I should point out i do not deny adam had a relationship with god, nor that he was without favor, nor without freewill, nor do i say he was not innocent, nor do i think death ruled over him, he has the chance to obtain eternal life.

Death only becomes certain after he sins.
“On the day that you eat it you will surely die”
Before he sins he has a good chance of not dying cause he could eat from the tree of life at anytime.
I. Council of Carthage, 418 A.D., approved by Pope Saint Zosimus

[Denzinger 101] Can. 1. All the bishops established in the sacred synod of the Carthaginian Church have decided that whoever says that Adam, the first man, was made mortal, so that, whether he sinned or whether he did not sin, he would die in body, that is he would go out of the body not because of the merit of sin but by reason of the necessity of nature, * let him be anathema.

II. Council of Orange II, 529 A.D., approved by Pope Saint Felix III

[Denzinger 174] * Can. 1. If anyone says that by the offense of Adam’s transgression not the whole man, that is according to body and soul, was changed for the worse [St. Augustine], * but believes that while the liberty of the soul endures without harm, the body only is exposed to corruption, he is deceived by the error of Pelagius and resists the Scripture which says:“The soul, that has sinned, shall die” Ezech. 18:20]; and: “Do you not know that to whom you show yourselves servants to obey, you are the servants of him whom you obey?” Rom. 6:16]; and: Anyone is adjudged the slave of him by whom he is overcome 2 Pet.2:19].

III. Errors of Michael du Bay (BAII) Condemned in the Bull “Ex omnibus afflictionibus,” Oct. 1, 1567, Pope Saint Piux V [Denzinger 1078] 78. The immortality of the first man was not a benefit of grace, but a natural condition. [Condemned]

IV. The Relationship Between Philosophy and Theology From the Encyclical, "Communium rerum,’’ April 21, 1909, Pope Saint Pius X

[Denzinger 2123] Question 111:

Whether in particular the literal and historical sense can be called into question, where it is a matter of facts related in the same chapters, which pertain to the foundations of the Christian religion; for example, among others, the creation of all things wrought by God in the beginning of time; the special creation of man; the formation of the first woman from the first man; the oneness of the human race; the original happiness of our first parents in the state of justice, integrity, and immortality; the command given to man by God to prove his obedience; the transgression of the divine command through the devil’s persuasion under the guise of a serpent; the casting of our first parents out of that first state of innocence; and also the promise of a future restorer?

–Reply: In the negative.
*
 
Genesis 3: 22 appears to refer back to Genesis 2: 15-17.

This thread’s confusion appears to be related to the fact that there cannot be two supreme gods at the same time. Therefore, Adam has to live in obedience to the only one supreme being Who is his Divine Creator God. CCC 396 & CCC 1730.
 
Small comment.
Jesus did not need the gift of immortality. He was already the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity.
Jesus is fully God and fully Man.

As God, He is – by His divine nature – immortal.

As Man, He inherits human nature, which, as we’re discussing here, implies physical death. (That He would have also inherited preternatural gifts is the topic at hand.)
 
Jesus is fully God and fully Man.

As God, He is – by His divine nature – immortal.

As Man, He inherits human nature, which, as we’re discussing here, implies physical death. (That He would have also inherited preternatural gifts is the topic at hand.)
The huge trouble on CAF is that Catholics skip precise terminologies.

Jesus did not inherit human nature.
 
👍 You’re welcome!

Ahh… speculative theology – always a fun game to play! 😉

OK… here’s my off-the-cuff thought: if Christ doesn’t give up His life for us… then there’s no salvation and no possibility of attaining to heaven, right? So… no: Jesus not only “would never have died”, but also, He never would “never [be] crucified.” That was His mission. He fulfilled it.

Could he have lived till today? Sure. But that, too, would have been problematic. I’ll refer to you Herbert’s Dune novels for one idea of what happens when a ‘God-man’ lives among us for generations and generations. (Hint: it’s not a good thing, and it leads to coercive discipleship, rather than the acceptance of Christ in love and faith that He wishes of us.)

Two thoughts:

First, if we’re talking about the source of immortality for Adam, it’s not the “tree of life” – it’s the one who created the tree of life and provided it to Adam! In other words, the source of eternal life isn’t a tree, but rather, is God.

Second, if we see the the first chapters of Genesis as a sort of allegory – that is, expressing truths through the use of various figures – then we see the ‘tree of life’ as an allegory for God’s gift of immortality to the first humans. In the story, then, this gift is only accessible until these first persons sin. Once they sin, the consequence is that they must leave that state of life in which they have access to these gifts.

It seems that your concern is whether Adam was created with immortality. I’d say that the answer is both ‘yes’ and ‘no’. Adam is created in the “image and likeness” of God; that is, he has an immortal soul. So… yes. Humans are implicitly immortal. However, Adam is a body/soul composite, and the nature of physical, created things is that these physical bodies die. So… no. Humans are created with human nature, so implicitly, he will experience physical corruption.

And, as we’ve said, the first humans also received preternatural gifts from God. The very notion is that they were gifts, and not part of our nature.

I would answer that the ‘death’ Adam inherits as a result of the Fall isn’t physical death, but spiritual death. His loss of friendship with God means that he cannot experience eternal life with God in heaven. That’s the real loss that humans incur through sin. That’s what Jesus regains for us!
The allegory has to fit the text right, it seems your merging things together that are not merged in the narrative.
In gen 3:22 god must keep man from eating from the tree of life for if he eats he will live forever despite what god wants. That is clear in the narrative, god is worried man will get eternal life and abuse it for evil for now he knows good and evil.
So yes did the tree come from god yes but the tree seems to grant eternal life unconditionally. Its an unconditional gift from god. For if now he eats from the tree of life he will live forever, despite the fact he has sin.
Adam had access to the gift yet lost access after he sins.

I do not deny this is allegory and here is an interpretation that accepts allogory that fits the narrative.
For example lets say the two trees are symbols. They represent two attributes of God; life and knowledge. And also eating from the trees, represents two possible deeds. One deed is considered righteous and by therefor doing it grants life. The other is considered selfish and brings about sin and death.
Now after seeking knowledge and not life, seeking the power of god and not a relationship with god, we lost access to an eternal life with god.
in order to receive life one must first past threw the firey sword that gaurds the tree of life, that is he must die to eat of the tree. And so to we must die in order that we may live. Die by the Spirit that is the sword perhaps?

If its only Spiritual death why is the bodily resurrection important? Seems god never intended man to die physically as well.
 
The huge trouble on CAF is that Catholics skip precise terminologies.
Yes… that appears to be the case, even in this thread:
Jesus did not inherit human nature.
CCC 461: Taking up St. John’s expression, “The Word became flesh”, the Church calls “Incarnation” the fact that the Son of God assumed a human nature in order to accomplish our salvation in it.
 
The allegory has to fit the text right, it seems your merging things together that are not merged in the narrative.
Here’s the thing about allegories: they’re allegories, not doctrine itself. The allegory fits the doctrine, not the other way around.

Therefore, we have to understand which parts of the allegory are teaching us the doctrine (which originates with God!) and which are expressions that help us understand the story and help point toward the truth God is teaching us in the narrative. Clearly, we wouldn’t say “the text says ‘talking snake’, so therefore, there must be talking snakes!”… would we?

With that in mind, it’s important – if we are attempting to interpret these passages as ‘allegory’ – to understand what the allegory is telling us. The danger, of course, is treating them in a slavishly literalistic way, while nevertheless claiming that they’re allegorical.

So, here are the questions we face:
  • Does God really ask whether Adam will attempt to ‘eat from the tree of life’, or does He already know the answer?
  • Does God fear that humans might live forever?
  • Does God really fear that humans might ‘become like’ Him?
  • Did Adam & Eve already have ‘knowledge of good and evil’, prior to the Fall?
  • Did they already have ‘life’, prior to the Fall?
  • In the context of the allegory, what does the ‘tree of live’ represent? What does the ‘tree of the knowledge of good and evil’ represent? What does it mean, in this allegory, to be ‘banished from the garden’?
I’m not going to make any claims about fruit eaten or uneaten; that, to my mind, is too close to an attempt at a literal interpretation rather than an allegorical interpretation.

Instead, let’s attempt to interpret the allegory. I believe that this will answer your question (or at least, demonstrate that the questions you ask aren’t really relevant to the lessons of the story as presented in Scripture).

First, we would absolutely say that God knows all things; therefore, the “oh noes! people might try to eat the fruit!” description seems clearly to be in service of the story.

Second, the “be like us” line is interesting: isn’t man already like God, having been made in His image and likeness? What’s at play here isn’t physical immortality, per se, even if that’s the way it’s worked out in the context of the story. Rather, what’s at play is friendship with God and eternal life with Him. That’s what’s lost here, if we wish to understand the allegory properly.

Now for the interesting part: do Adam and Eve have “knowledge of good and evil”? Do they have “life”? The answer, I’d assert, is a resounding ‘yes’!

Here’s the thing, though: their knowledge of good and evil comes from God – He’s the one who tells them what’s good to do and what’s evil to do. The tree, then, represents mankind’s attempt to appropriate for himself the right to define these things. The story is telling us that this attempt is sinful – it breaks our friendship with God to attempt to ‘play God’ and define our own moralities.

Same thing with ‘life’ – they already have life! The tree represents the gift of immortality which God gives to mankind. When they refuse / misappropriate the gifts God gives them, the consequence is that they lose access to these gifts.

Therefore, I think that it’s an erroneous approach to ask “did Adam and Eve already eat from the tree of life?”. That takes the allegory too literally. I think I would ask the questions “did Adam and Eve have access to the Tree of Life – albeit at God’s will and direction, and not at their own will – in the garden? Did they lose that access through their sin?” are the ones that the Scriptural account wants us to answer.

And so, the answer is “yes, God provides these gifts to humanity at their creation, to be dispensed at His direction; but, when they sin, humanity loses access to these gifts.”

I think that’s as far as we should take the allegory. 🤷
So yes did the tree come from god yes but the tree seems to grant eternal life unconditionally. Its an unconditional gift from god. For if now he eats from the tree of life he will live forever, despite the fact he has sin.
Again, I think that’s taking the allegory in a way it isn’t meant to be understood. Let’s look at it a bit more closely:

Adam and Eve eat from the ‘tree of knowledge of good and evil’, right? If your assertion holds up, then that means that their meal grants this knowledge. Would you conclude, then, that humanity has the “knowledge of good and evil” on its own? Clearly, the answer is ‘no’ – and we have to look no further than the Cain and Abel story (or even, simply, examining Eve’s decision to eat from the tree!) to see that this is the case!

Therefore, even on its own terms, your assertions here don’t seem to hold up to scrutiny. However, I’d still say that the assertions are trying to read too much into the allegory.
 
Yes… that appears to be the case, even in this thread:

CCC 461: Taking up St. John’s expression, “The Word became flesh”, the Church calls “Incarnation” the fact that the Son of God assumed a human nature in order to accomplish our salvation in it.
“inherit” is still wrong.

I am sorry if you do not understand that absorb would be another way of inheriting someone’s nature. The power to assume stands on its own, no need to inherit.

It is fascinating that Catholics do not directly address the thread’s “problems” around Adam’s relationship with the Divine Creator God. No one seems to explore why Adam could have eternal life. Eating organic fruit from a tree named Life does not get down to basic Catholicism. Who wants basic Catholicism, especially that which flows from the first three forgotten chapters of Sacred Scripture?

Please accept my sincere apology for the above. This older than dirt granny lived at a time when simple Catholic truths were simple to learn.

May the blessing of peace be gifted to all.
 
“inherit” is still wrong.

I am sorry if you do not understand that absorb would be another way of inheriting someone’s nature. The power to assume stands on its own, no need to inherit.
🤷

If ‘assume’ makes you happier than ‘inherit’, then go with it. :rolleyes:

On the other hand, perhaps you might be willing to ask yourself: what did Christ get from Mary? Did he inherit anything from her? If it was done through the operation of His divine will, is there a difference between willingly assuming and inheriting?
It is fascinating that Catholics do not directly address the thread’s “problems” around Adam’s relationship with the Divine Creator God. No one seems to explore why Adam could have eternal life.
It’s already been mentioned, many times on this thread: humanity receives the gift of immortality as one of the preternatural gifts given by God.
Eating organic fruit from a tree named Life does not get down to basic Catholicism.
No, of course not. Yet, it’s part of the literary vehicle through which these Catholic doctrines are expressed in Scripture.
 
🤷

If ‘assume’ makes you happier than ‘inherit’, then go with it. :rolleyes:

On the other hand, perhaps you might be willing to ask yourself: what did Christ get from Mary? Did he inherit anything from her? If it was done through the operation of His divine will, is there a difference between willingly assuming and inheriting?

It’s already been mentioned, many times on this thread: humanity receives the gift of immortality as one of the preternatural gifts given by God.

No, of course not. Yet, it’s part of the literary vehicle through which these Catholic doctrines are expressed in Scripture.
May the blessing of peace be gifted to all.
A decision has to be made.
 
The huge trouble on CAF is that Catholics skip precise terminologies.

Jesus did not inherit human nature.
As given in the Council of Trent, Session V (Denzinger):

795 But although Christ died for all [2 Cor. 5:15], yet not all receive the benefit of His death, but those only to whom the merit of His passion is communicated. For, as indeed men would not be born unjust, if they were not born through propagation of the seed of Adam, since by that propagation they contract through him, in conception, injustice as their own, so unless they were born again in Christ, they never would be justified [can. 2 and 10], since in that new birth through the merit of His passion, the grace, whereby they are made just, is bestowed upon them. For this benefit the Apostle exhorts us always to “give thanks to the Father who has made us worthy to be partakers of the lot of the saints in light” [Col. 1:12], "and has delivered us from the power of darkness, and has translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love, in whom we have redemption and remission of sins [Col. 1:13 ff.].
 
Regarding Genesis 3: 22 reference to the Tree of Life.

22
Then the LORD God said: See! The man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil! Now, what if he also reaches out his hand to take fruit from the tree of life, and eats of it and lives forever?j
usccb.org/bible/genesis/3

From Scott Hahn’s *Catholic Bible Dictionary. *Scroll down a bit to Tree of Life.

books.google.com/books?id=RVQ1zjMLv8MC&pg=PA923&lpg=PA923&dq=tree+of+life,+scott+hahn+dictionary&source=bl&ots=ZpBR3dNInz&sig=Anuqu5TWEgISEuGSlsU7-C5RiPg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj1xuPLztrVAhWBzIMKHcxXA3oQ6AEIOjAD#v=onepage&q=tree%20of%20life%2C%20scott%20hahn%20dictionary&f=false


For some reason, I could not copy and paste.

Personally, I believe that one needs to know the history of the forbidden tree in Genesis 2:15-17.
I am suggesting that there is something more to Genesis 2: 15-17 in connection with Genesis 3: 22. For example, we may need a clearer understanding of Adam’s nature and the extraordinary immortality gift to Adam and Eve.
 
Regarding Genesis 3: 22 reference to the Tree of Life.

22
Then the LORD God said: See! The man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil! Now, what if he also reaches out his hand to take fruit from the tree of life, and eats of it and lives forever?j
usccb.org/bible/genesis/3

From Scott Hahn’s *Catholic Bible Dictionary. *Scroll down a bit to Tree of Life.

books.google.com/books?id=RVQ1zjMLv8MC&pg=PA923&lpg=PA923&dq=tree+of+life,+scott+hahn+dictionary&source=bl&ots=ZpBR3dNInz&sig=Anuqu5TWEgISEuGSlsU7-C5RiPg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj1xuPLztrVAhWBzIMKHcxXA3oQ6AEIOjAD#v=onepage&q=tree%20of%20life%2C%20scott%20hahn%20dictionary&f=false


For some reason, I could not copy and paste.

Personally, I believe that one needs to know the history of the forbidden tree in Genesis 2:15-17.
I am suggesting that there is something more to Genesis 2: 15-17 in connection with Genesis 3: 22. For example, we may need a clearer understanding of Adam’s nature and the extraordinary immortality gift to Adam and Eve.
Try this link.

books.google.com/books?id=RVQ1zjMLv8MC&pg=PA923&dq=tree+of+life,+scott+hahn+dictionary&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiv0emb4NrVAhVIxYMKHflkBvgQ6AEIJjAA#v=onepage&q=tree%20of%20life%2C%20scott%20hahn%20dictionary&f=false
 
I am having trouble with the link. Here is Scott Hahn’s beginning.

**TREE OF LIFE **One of the two primeval trees in the middle of the Garden of Eden (Genesis 2:9). The tree bestowed immortality upon those who ate of its fruit (Gen 3: 22), but Adam and **Eve’s **expulsion from the Garden owing to the **Fall **ended their access to the tree’s life-giving fruit.
 
As I said in post 32: "I have a few ideas as to how to put together your puzzle. I was responding to your post 14 which begins the issue of Sanctifying Grace.

It so happens that the State of Sanctifying Grace is a key point for solving the “Problems with dogmas regarding Adam and Eve.” Some years back, I used CCC 375 as evidence of Adam’s State of Sanctifying Grace.

Feminine logic was also used. 😉

Going back to the CCC section you were looking at, CCC 1997 is the cross reference in the margin for CCC 375. There is also a reference to CCC 260. In addition, there is the use of small print. CCC 20-21 explains the use of small print. Another skill is to use the CCC Index of Citations starting on page 689. Plus, we cannot forget the powerful Genesis 1: 27

This thread is not a walk in the park.
I don’t have a puzzle.
 
The State of Sanctifying Grace is not something we are born with. Because of the results of Original Sin, Adam’s human nature, which is passed on to his descendants, was deprived of Original Holiness and Justice. (CCC404) It is the grace of Baptism which erases the State of Original Sin and turns the person back toward God as we share in His Divine Life. (CCC 405 & CCC 375) This is possible because of Genesis 1: 27.

Sharing in God’s Divine life is not the same as immortality. Immortality strictly refers to our normal decomposing anatomy.
 
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