Problems with Joseph Smith's First Vision

[truthseeker32]

Our friend Nickerman argues that LDS apologists have debunked the criticisms of the first vision. In order to make headway lets look at what the LDS church has to say to see if this is true. From lds.org:

The oldest account, written in 1832, was part of an autobiography. This account emphasized Joseph’s quest for religious truth and his desire to be forgiven of his sins. Therein, Joseph stated that the Lord said to him, “Joseph my son thy sins are forgiven thee.” Some people have claimed that this account contradicts other accounts because it does not explicitly mention two personages. However, the 1832 account does not say that he saw only one personage, nor does it in any way disclaim the appearance of two.

Okay, so basically the argument being put forward here is “just because he only mentioned one being it doesn’t mean there wasn’t another one there.” This is absolutely true. However, where I think this argument falls apart is in considering what exactly Joseph Smith Jr. believed about the godhead at the time of this record. In 1832 when JS wrote this first account he believed that Jesus Christ and God the Father were the same person, not distinct from one another. This is evident in places like the book of Ether, which states:

“Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have light… they shall become my sons and my daughters.” (Ether 3:14)

-and-

Like the Book of Mormon, Mormonism before 1835 was largely modalistic, making no explicit distinction between the identities of the Father and the Son. Yet Mormonism gradually began to distinguish among different beings in the Godhead. This means the christology of the Book of Mormon differs significantly from the christology of the Mormon church after the 1840s… (New Approaches to the Book of Mormon, 1993, pages 82, 96-99, 103-104, 110)

What this argument fails to acknowledge is that this first account fits perfectly with JS’s sabellianism of the time. If he had truly seen two distinct personages why would he and the Mormon movement have continued to hold a unitarian view of God for 3-4 more years?

Another account comes from a conversation Joseph Smith had in November 1835 with a visitor to Kirtland, Ohio. A brief summary of this conversation, including a description of the First Vision, was recorded in Joseph Smith’s diary by Warren Cowdery, one of Joseph’s scribes. One detail unique to the 1835 account is Joseph Smith’s statement that in addition to two personages, he saw many angels. When telling the story of the First Vision, some early Church leaders occasionally said that an angel told Joseph Smith not to join any of the churches. However, in their sermons, these same leaders often used Lord, Christ, personage, messenger, and angel interchangeably. The same is true of Old Testament prophets (see Genesis 32:24-30; 48:16).

Here is the actual text regarding what JS said about two personages:

…a pillar of fire appeared above my head, it presently rested down upon me head, and filled me with Joy unspeakable, a personage appeard in the midst of this pillar of flame which was spread all around, and yet nothing consumed, another personage soon appeard like unto the first, he said unto me thy sins are forgiven thee, he testified unto me that Jesus Christ is the Son of God (From Joseph’s journal entry of 9 November 1835)

This is where we see the popular version of the first vision begin to develop. What is interesting is that JS doesn’t identify the first personage as the Father.

The 1838 version is found in the Pearl of Great Price, a book of canonized scripture in the Church. The Prophet intended this account to be the primary one for the Church, and it contains a detailed description of the historical setting. The emphasis of his description is different from the 1832 account. In 1832, he concentrated more on his search for forgiveness, and in 1838 he emphasized God’s declaration regarding the true Church.

In earlier versions, JS emphasized the forgiveness of his sins. That the Church was to be restored wasn’t mentioned. In the 1838 version this comes about.

The fourth account by the Prophet was included in a letter he wrote in 1842 to John Wentworth, editor of the Chicago Democrat. In this account, Joseph Smith included a statement implied in the other accounts but not specifically stated—that he was told that the fulness of the gospel would be made known unto him in the future.

I don’t have anything to say on this one, just thought I would include it for completeness.

 

[truthseeker32]

A few extra notes:

*Another potential evidence that Joseph Smith did not see the Father and the Son in 1820, to those who believe in the restoration of the Priesthood, is the fact that in the year 1832 Joseph Smith claimed to have a revelation which stated that a man could not see God without the Priesthood. This revelation is published as Section 84 of the Doctrine and Covenants. In verses 21-22 we read:

"And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh;
“For without this no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live.”
Now, it is claimed that “The Father and the Son appeared to the Prophet Joseph Smith before the Church was organized and the priesthood restored to the earth” (Doctrines of Salvation, by Joseph Fielding Smith, vol. 1, p.4).

Some critics maintain that the revelation given in 1832 suggests that Joseph Smith’s story of the first vision was made up years after it was supposed to have occurred. Joseph did not even claim to have the Priesthood in 1820, and the Doctrine and Covenants clearly says that without the Priesthood no man can see God and live.* (mormonthink.com/firstvisionweb.htm#apossible)

It should also be brought to light that claiming to have had visions was not that rare in JS’s day and area, and there are a lot of accounts that sound alike to his:

Norris Stearns, 1815
“I saw two spirits, which I knew at the first sight. But if I had the tongue of an Angel I could not describe their glory, for they brought the joys of heaven with them. One was God, my Maker, almost in bodily shape like a man. His face was, as it were a flame of Fire, and his body, as it had been a Pillar and a cloud. In looking steadfastly to discern features, I could see none, but a small glimpse would appear in some other place. Below him stood Jesus Christ my Redeemer, in perfect shape like a man—His face was not ablaze, but had the countenance of fire, being bright and shining. His Father’s will appeared to be his! All was condescension, peace, and love.”

Asa Wild, 1823
Asa Wild claimed to have a revelation which is very similar to the story Joseph Smith published. It was published in the Wayne Sentinel (the paper to which the family of Joseph Smith apparently subscribed) on October 22, 1823: "It seemed as if my mind … was struck motionless, as well as into nothing, before the awful and glorious majesty of the Great Jehovah. He then spake … He also told me, that every denomination of professing christians had become extremely corrupt…"

Here is a chart comparing all the discrepancies between vision accounts:
annuitech.com/ms/ftp/Jim/ComparisonChart.pdf

 

[twopekinguys]

Nickerman,

Are you back into lurking mode?

Not going to address the information presented to you?

Cannot defend your statements?

We can tell you’ve been back on since your last post.

Come on back, and engage.

 

[twopekinguys]

I found this video quite informative.