Problems with Joseph Smith's First Vision

[twopekinguys]

Here’s another interesting little tid bit about the first vision.

Brigham Young even stated specifically that the Lord did not visit young Joseph. In reference to this vision he said “The Lord did not come with the armies of heaven…But He did send His angel to this same obscure person, Joseph Smith jun…and informed him that he should not join any of the religions of the day, for they were all wrong;…” (Journal of Discourses 2:171).

So the second “prophet” of the mormon church is basically calling JS a liar.

Which one of these “prophets” is wrong?

 

[twopekinguys]

More fun on the “first vision”

1837 version “and the visitors were not God and Jesus but beings who identified themselves only as angels who claimed to have forgiven Joseph’s sins.”

No mention of God or Jesus there.

1835 version “the evil power is mentioned for the very first time. In all previous published accounts (listed below), no evil power was ever mentioned by Joseph. Also, he does not claim that the messengers were God and Jesus, just that many angels visited him.”

1844 version “In this account, most of the details are the same as the official version, except that Joseph was not told that all of the Christian sects were wrong. Instead, he was specifically told that the Methodists were not God’s people.”

Don’t you have a problem with just these few inconsistencies?

mrm.org/first-vision

 

[twopekinguys]

Come on back Nick.

I know you’ve been online and read my answers since they’ve been posted. (gotta love time stamps on profiles )

Do you have any (name removed by moderator)ut on the information I gave you?

 

[TexanKnight]

Of course he did…

The revealed truths that emerged from Joseph’s First Vision are priceless gifts to humanity from our Heavenly Father.

Really? Which version? The version where all he said is “your sins are forgiven?” Which priceless were revealed there? Was it the one where two personages existed or only one? Was it the one where angels appeared, or just one angel? Was it the version where he was 14 or the one where he was 15? Please enlighten me.

Throughout the centuries, God has always revealed sacred truths to those whom He appoints.

Try as I might, I cannot find 9 versions of when God spoke to Moses. Did you hide the other 8?

Truly understanding and gaining the full benefit of those truths only comes as a gift from the Father through the instrumentality of the Holy Ghost.

And believing a con man just comes from …Joseph’s followers?

The restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ was divinely appointed and will continue to lift and bless mankind as we actually follow him in truth and righteousness, whether we be Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, Jew or Gentile.

And what will lift us? Banning blacks from holding the Priesthood? Polygamy? Bank Fraud? Running from criminal charges? How, exactly, did any of that lift and bless mankind?

 

[LivingWaters7]

This is just one of my favorites. "If Joseph Smith saw God in 1820, why did he pray in his room in 1823 to find out “if a Supreme being did exist?”

Wait whaaaat? Guess I need to read more at MormonThink!

 

[twopekinguys]

Wait whaaaat? Guess I need to read more at MormonThink!

There is alot of information out there.

Just be a sponge, and soak it all up.

Still praying for you.

 

[Porknpie]

Here’s another interesting little tid bit about the first vision.

Brigham Young even stated specifically that the Lord did not visit young Joseph. In reference to this vision he said “The Lord did not come with the armies of heaven…But He did send His angel to this same obscure person, Joseph Smith jun…and informed him that he should not join any of the religions of the day, for they were all wrong;…” (Journal of Discourses 2:171).

So the second “prophet” of the mormon church is basically calling JS a liar.

Which one of these “prophets” is wrong?

I’m not sure which one I like better,this one or your previous on JS praying in 1823 about a God he met in 1820. :juggle:

 

[twopekinguys]

Wait whaaaat? Guess I need to read more at MormonThink!

I don’t want to drag this thread off topic…but…

Did you know that JS practiced Polygamy/Spiritual Wives for almost 5 years before the revelation became public?

It also happened to coincide with Emma catching him with his pants down (so to speak).

Funny how all that works out huh?

 

[lvcabbie]

Without reading each and every post, I already know this is a series of arguments on the minutia of the subject.

One either believes the story of Joseph Smith or not. There is little to be said that will change the mind of anyone.

The main question is how does one worship The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. And, just as important is how does one live to achieve this.

Does the Mormon church provide a good moral example for families and children? IMHO, it does and that is what is most important.

While I am not an active member and haven’t been for decades, I would recommend the Mormon lifestyle to any young folks planning on having a family.

 

[SteveVH]

This is just one of my favorites. "If Joseph Smith saw God in 1820, why did he pray in his room in 1823 to find out “if a Supreme being did exist?”

I never cease to be amazed, just never in a good way. This is what happens when a faith is built upon a lie. It’s really hard to keep your story straight. Yeah, too bad he never had to sit and justify all of this.

 

[LivingWaters7]

I don’t want to drag this thread off topic…but…

Did you know that JS practiced Polygamy/Spiritual Wives for almost 5 years before the revelation became public?

It also happened to coincide with Emma catching him with his pants down (so to speak).

Funny how all that works out huh?

To be honest, I’ve never really looked into the history of plural marriage in the LDS faith (I haven’t even read LDS apologetics on it either). I know that it was practiced, that Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, etc were sealed to multiple women, that D&C 132 refers to it, that it was ended in 1890, and that’s about it.

 

[twopekinguys]

Without reading each and every post, I already know this is a series of arguments on the minutia of the subject.

One either believes the story of Joseph Smith or not. There is little to be said that will change the mind of anyone.

The main question is how does one worship The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. And, just as important is how does one live to achieve this.

Does the Mormon church provide a good moral example for families and children? IMHO, it does and that is what is most important.

While I am not an active member and haven’t been for decades, I would recommend the Mormon lifestyle to any young folks planning on having a family.

Obviously, your view of minutia and ours are miles apart.

You realize that the mormon view of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and Christianity’s view are light years apart right? Not exactly minutia.

Yes, minds have been opened and changed.

Nowhere has anyone said individual mormons are bad, or their devotion to family is wrong, but their theology is obviously flawed, and must be pointed out.

That is exactly what is being done.

Just a suggestion, why not read the posts in this thread before making a comment such as yours.

 

[twopekinguys]

To be honest, I’ve never really looked into the history of plural marriage in the LDS faith (I haven’t even read LDS apologetics on it either). I know that it was practiced, that Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, etc were sealed to multiple women, that D&C 132 refers to it, that it was ended in 1890, and that’s about it.

Like I said before.

Be a sponge. Soak it all up. The good and the bad, the pro and con, and go from there.

I have said before, my hope for you is not that you become Catholic, but that you find the truth.

One thing about Catholics is, we don’t leave our logic and reasoning skills at the door.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Without reading each and every post, I already know this is a series of arguments on the minutia of the subject.

One either believes the story of Joseph Smith or not. There is little to be said that will change the mind of anyone.

The main question is how does one worship The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. And, just as important is how does one live to achieve this.

Does the Mormon church provide a good moral example for families and children? IMHO, it does and that is what is most important.

While I am not an active member and haven’t been for decades, I would recommend the Mormon lifestyle to any young folks planning on having a family.

We also must be careful to not reduce faith to moralisms.

 

[TexanKnight]

Without reading each and every post, I already know this is a series of arguments on the minutia of the subject.

One either believes the story of Joseph Smith or not. There is little to be said that will change the mind of anyone.

The main question is how does one worship The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. And, just as important is how does one live to achieve this.

Does the Mormon church provide a good moral example for families and children? IMHO, it does and that is what is most important.

While I am not an active member and haven’t been for decades, I would recommend the Mormon lifestyle to any young folks planning on having a family.

So, if cannibals had a good lifestyle for their children, you would recommend it?

 

[batman1973]

I don’t want to drag this thread off topic…but…

Did you know that JS practiced Polygamy/Spiritual Wives for almost 5 years before the revelation became public?

It also happened to coincide with Emma catching him with his pants down (so to speak).

Funny how all that works out huh?

Lol. I read this, and the old Remnant LDS in me got rattled a bit. JS a polygamist is a huge bone of contention for non Utah Mormons.

 

[Nicea325]

Mormons don’t have any answers for this. It is best to ignore it.

Of course they do: Joseph Smith had one to many drinks…:tiphat:

 

[Nicea325]

Without reading each and every post, I already know this is a series of arguments on the minutia of the subject.

One either believes the story of Joseph Smith or not. There is little to be said that will change the mind of anyone.

The main question is how does one worship The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. And, just as important is how does one live to achieve this.

Does the Mormon church provide a good moral example for families and children? IMHO, it does and that is what is most important.

While I am not an active member and haven’t been for decades, I would recommend the Mormon lifestyle to any young folks planning on having a family.

So one needs to be Mormon to have morals and values? One cannot find it at their local congregation?

 

[SteveVH]

Does the Mormon church provide a good moral example for families and children? IMHO, it does and that is what is most important.

While I am not an active member and haven’t been for decades, I would recommend the Mormon lifestyle to any young folks planning on having a family.

The problem is that Jesus didn’t come to earth to teach us how to be good people. He came to save us. I have a friend that is an atheist. They live a very moral life by anyone’s standards and are generous to all. But this isn’t the most important thing by any stretch. I don’t think anyone would argue that Mormons don’t place a high priority on family, but this is not something that sets them apart from any other religious group.

 

[Nickerman]

What do you mean by “early church”? Mormons didn’t start teaching about the first vision until 1842, 22 years after it happened.

Your sources err, Truth. This has always been a fundamental tenant of the LDS Church; every convert–past, present and future–knows this.

If all one bases their faith on is a feeling how can they hold their own truth above others who claim to have arrived at their beliefs by spiritual witness?

True enough, Truth. LDS Christians are taught to evaluate truth through diligent study, pondering and prayer, then inquiring of the Lord. We believe this is sort of what Paul was referring to in 1 Thessalonians.

Cheers,
~Nick