Problems with Joseph Smith's First Vision

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TexanKnight

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First Vision Versions (and these are not all of them)

1832-
Who- Joseph’s Hand
Date/Place- No date, No location
His Age- In 16th Year
Revival- No revival mentioned
Who was there- The Lord
Religious Corruption- Not mentioned
Message- Sins Forgiven

1835-
Who- Told to Warren Parish, His Scribe
Date/Place- No date, Silent Grove
His Age- About 14
Revival- No revival mentioned
Who was there- Two unidentified personages and many angels
Religious Corruption- Not mentioned
Message- Sins Forgiven, Jesus is Son of God

1835-
Who- Told to Warren Parish, His Scribe
Date/Place- No date, No location
His Age- About 14
Revival- No revival mentioned
Who was there- Just Angels
Religious Corruption- Not mentioned
Message- No Message

1840
Who- Joseph told Orson Pratt
Date/Place- No Date, Secret Place in a Grove
His Age- About 14
Revival- No revival mentioned
Who was there- Two unidentified personages who looked exactly alike
Religious Corruption- Churches teaching incorrect doctrines
Message- Sins Forgiven, Churches in error

1842
Who- Times and Seasons, Church History
Date/Place- Early Spring 1820, The Woods
His Age- 14
Revival- Yes, added later
Who was there- Two personages
Religious Corruption- All sects corrupt
Message- Sins Forgiven, Churches in error

July 1843
Who- Joseph Letter to Daniel Rupp
Date/Place- No Date, Secret Place in Grove
His Age- About 14
Revival- Not mentioned
Who was there- Two unidentified personages who looked exactly alike
Religious Corruption- All sects corrupt
Message- Sins Forgiven, Churches in error

August 1843
Who- Joseph to a journalist
Date/Place- No Date, The woods
His Age- About 14
Revival- Yes
Who was there- Two personages
Religious Corruption- All sects corrupt
Message- Sins Forgiven, Churches in error

May 1844
Who- Joseph in his diary
Date/Place- No Date, The woods
His Age- not mentioned
Revival- Yes
Who was there- Two personages, one has light complexion and blue eyes
Religious Corruption- All sects corrupt
Message- Methodist Church Wrong, all Churches in error
 
But was it even HIS vision?

As it has been discussed, the first published version of the “first vision” did not happen until 1832.

However, was it really Joseph’s vision? Apart from the 9 incredible different versions of the vision, there is another question.

In 1816, a man named Solomon Chamberlain had his own “vision”. He published his vision in a pamphlet in 1829. He lived about 20 miles from Palmayra and actually visited Joseph Smith in 1829.

Chamberlain’s published version (which was published prior to Joseph’s) read like this:

“The Lord showed me in a vision that there was no people on the earth that was right, and that faith was gone from the earth, excepting a few and that all churches were corrupt.”

Being published priuor to Joe’s version, this certainly raises the spector that, as Joe did with the Book of Mormon and the temple ceremonies, Joe just lifted this vision to make his own 3 years later.

Of course, I am not suggesting that Joe only used Chamberlain. There was apparently a rash of “visions” in the Palmyra area prior to Joe deciding to jump on the bandwagon in 1932…

1816- Elias Smith- Vermont- had a vision in the woods when he was 16. A light appeared from heaven…

1823- Asa Wild- as printed in the Palmyra’s “Wayne Sentinal” Wild wrote his "mind was struck motionless, was told by God that all denominations were corrupt.

1824- Alexander Campbell- had a vision where he was told his sins were forgivem.

1826- John Thompson, a teacher at Palmyra Academy- Jesus descended from the sky

1830- Stephen Bradley- was 14 (sound familiar?) when HE was visited by Jesus
 
I am aware of no evidence that any of these persons tested the spirits (1 John 4:1). Lacking any such test, we cannot know with certainty their source, and it is clear that an untested vision should not be followed.
 
Mormons don’t have any answers for this. It is best to ignore it.
 
I will take Religion for $500 Alex

This prophet had 9 different visions and said he did more than Jesus.

kimg901 answers “Who is Joseph Smith”

I guess you pick the vision you want and leave the rest 🤷
 
Just his first vision? 😛

I kind of have a problem with all the visions he had.
 
Would you mind posting a citation for those, Texan? I don’t doubt the veracity, I just know that on a forum it’s “Citation or it didn’t happen”. Do you have the actual texts somewhere that I could refer to?
 
SpeSalvi said:
Would you mind posting a citation for those, Texan? I don’t doubt the veracity, I just know that on a forum it’s “Citation or it didn’t happen”. Do you have the actual texts somewhere that I could refer to?
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The book “One Nation Under Gods”

and the book “An Insider’s View of Mormon Origins”

and the book Joseph Smith’s Journal

I hope that helps
 
To be honest…the Joseph Smith Journal was what caused the first chink in my armor. I found at least three versions in his journal. That really bothered me. If someone is telling the truth, the story does not change as drastically as his changed. So, I began to research. I found more versions. Then I found more stuff…and more.

and eventually, I no longer believed.
 
TexanKnight said:
To be honest…the Joseph Smith Journal was what caused the first chink in my armor. I found at least three versions in his journal. That really bothered me. If someone is telling the truth, the story does not change as drastically as his changed. So, I began to research. I found more versions. Then I found more stuff…and more.

and eventually, I no longer believed.
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Just wondering if you, as with many Mormons who realized its falseness, lost all belief before God called you back?
 
po18guy said:
I am aware of no evidence that any of these persons tested the spirits (1 John 4:1). **Lacking any such test, **we cannot know with certainty their source, and it is clear that an untested vision should not be followed.
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“No Test, you must confess…that Joseph Smith’s vision can not be trusted”
 
As an attorney, you always hope for a witness to have just TWO versions of a story in order to destroy him on the stand.

Joseph gives us NINE versions of the story. I woulda had a field day with him on the stand.

Here is something else

The story was never put to paper until 1832. This is many years after the alleged incident. Why?

Because it was an evolving story. Joseph likely never believed people would be as fooled as they were…so he kept evolving the story…and people kept buying it.

Including me.

Until I finally listened to the real God.
 
It is interesting how a number of important LDS figures (presidents, theologians, etc.) have made the First Vision a foundation for Mormonism. In other words, if the FV is false then Mormonism is false.
David O. McKay, the ninth president of the church, stated that the first vision is the very “foundation of this Church” (Gospel Ideals, p. 85). In his thesis (p. 75), Paul R. Cheesman stated that the Mormon church “must stand or fall on the authenticity of the First Vision and the appearance of the Angel Moroni.”
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Joseph Fielding Smith (10th prophet): “If Joseph Smith was a deceiver, who wilfully attempted to mislead the people, then he should be exposed…Church stands or falls with Joseph Smith. Mormonism, as it is called, must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith… He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has even seen. There is no middle ground.” (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, p. 188).
Click to expand...
 
TexanKnight said:
Nope…never lost my belief in God…just in Joseph Smith
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Amen! I have heard some former LDS members here tell of descending into atheism before recapturing faith. As lamentable as this is, it is completely understandable when one suddenly realizes that almost everything they have heard regarding faith is false.
 
Hi all, when I first started digging into Mormon teachings, first was disbelief because way back then there was no internet, so these things such as the first vision revoloving story. The came the feeling of betrayal, humiliation at being so gullible, then anger. But I never stopped believing in God thankfully, my belief cooled for a time, but never was destroyed by this cult. And after many years of God’s patience I listened to him, the rest is history. But I feel so sorry for those who do become atheist because of the destructive influence of finding out the truth about Mormoism, Satan really does a good job on them
 
For me in the end it comes down to the same reason I could never be Muslim:

One witness is no witnesses.
 
Coming out of a strong Protestant tradition, I joined the LDS church in 1973, and “multiple accounts” was an “issue” for me. As I investigated, I discovered that Joseph’s “different” accounts of the first vision (primarily from 1832-1838) came about mainly because he was addressing various audiences; different purposes.

MUCH written about this within LDS circles. There is no evidence that the early leaders of the LDS Church did not understand that the Joseph saw two Divine Personages during his inaugural theophany. At the end of the day, it was the full body of revelations that Joseph received, and, more importantly, the personal revelation that I received about the nature and disposition of God, that convinced me that Joseph was an honest, honorable man with a simple, yet profound, message: God truly lives and He still speaks to His chosen servants today.

Cheers,
~Nick
 
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