Problems with Mary as Co-redemptrix

[Michael_G]

No it doesn’t.

First of all we don’t need Mary to co-do anything… especially redeem us. That insinuates a failure on the part of God’s redemptive power in Christ.

John
www.gideonsword.net

Scripture runs contrary to your conclusions.

1Ti 2:1 I desire therefore, first of all, that **supplications, prayers, intercessions **and thanksgivings be made for all men:
intereceding for one another makes us co mediaters with and through Christ by the Grace of God

2Co 5:18 But all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Christ and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation.
Christ reconciled us to our heavenly father but He has given us a ministry of reconciliating other to Christ, we have been given a privledge of co-reconcilators with and through Christ by the Grace of our Lord

We are literally called God’s co-workers in
1 Cor 3:9 We are God’s Co-workers
In essence all those on earth in union with Christ, and His entire heavenly court are God’s Coworkers

Mary was called to partcipate in the redemption in the most unique fasion such as no one else can or will by obediance to become the mother of the Word made Flesh.

It is as Mother Therease stated years ago no Mary no Christ in the flesh, no redemption.

 

[sara888]

**The Second Vatican Council morever presents Mary not only as “Mother of the divine Redeemer”, but also “in a singular way [as] the generous associate”, who “co-operated by her obedience, faith, hope and burning charity in the work of the Saviour”. The Council also recalls that the sublime fruit of this cooperation is her universal motherhood: “For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace” (ibid., n. 61).

We can therefore turn to the Blessed Virgin, trustfully imploring her aid in the awareness of the singular role entrusted to her by God, the role of co-operator in the Redemption, which she exercised throughout her life and in a special way at the foot of the Cross.

The mystery of Mary commits every Christian, in communion with the Church, “to pondering in his heart” what the Gospel revelation affirms about the Mother of Christ. In the logic of the Magnificat, after the example of Mary, each one will personally experience God’s love and will discover a sign of God’s tenderness for man in the marvels wrought by the Blessed Trinity in the woman "full of grace

**

 

[Reformed_Rob]

If a Protestant can experience the fiorgiveness of Christ and can go to Heaven, why is it so important that she remain Catholic?

It’s a hypothetical situation, that is, it’s probably out of the ordinary for a Protestant to go to heaven. You may think of it as “they go to heaven in spite of their being outside the visible unity of the Church.”

Or…they enter into eternal life despite the fact that they don’t drink the blood or eat the flesh of Jesus, which He said you must do to have eternal life in you. (John 6:53)

So…a Catholic who knowingly leaves the Church, they are placing themselves outside of the Church, ie. outside the body of Christ.

As our Catechism says (par. 846) and it quotes the Vatican 2 document…Lumen Gentium 14:

Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

So all those people that leave the Church, the only way that they could possibly still be saved, would be that they are ignorant of the truth that the Catholic Church is Christ’s Church and it’s necessary to be a part of it. Ignorance is not easy to claim when you have people telling you and explaining something to you so you will know and not be ignorant.

But there is another word besides ignorance…denial. And denial of truth is a denial of Jesus, who is truth.

 

[Fidelis]

If a Protestant can experience the fiorgiveness of Christ and can go to Heaven, why is it so important that she remain Catholic?

Why would one give up being a King if would could still survive as a peasant? While other Christians may be saved, in the Catholic Church is found the fullness of the Faith – in Word AND sacrament. In short, everything God intended his children to have. Why would anyone deprive themselves of that?

 

[Reformed_Rob]

Why would one give up being a King if would could still survive as a peasant? While other Christians may be saved, in the Catholic Church is found the fullness of the Faith – in Word AND sacrament. In short, everything God intended his children to have. Why would anyone deprive themselves of that?

I suspect most Catholics here (myself and yourself included) would rather be a Catholic peasant than a Protestant king!

However, there are a lot of things that do legitimately trouble people’s consciounce when it comes to Catholicism.

Marian doctrines is one of them. People come from a totally different background, and then they hear about Mary being maybe termed “co-redemptrix” or “mediatrix of all graces” it’s quite a shock.

It takes a while for people to feel comfortable becoming Catholic…there’s lots of issues involved, not all of them doctrinal.

 

[BJRumph]

The Church, as the guardian of the Faith, is a “co-redemptrix” (not to mention being a symbolic typeof Mary anyway). but more importantly…

Every Missionary who brings the Gospel to a new soul is a “co-redemer/trix”.

Being a “co-redeemer” is not against either Scripture, which commands such missionary work, nor even protestants, properly framed, will object to the term, properly understood within the tradition that actually uses it. It is an absolute necessity of each Christian’s spiritual life.

Stop letting those who don’t use the term to define it. The Church has been very clear, even if certain ardent heretics have obscured it, that Mary is not equal to Christ, and the term “Co-redemptrix” is not to be interpreted to mean such, as documented elsewhere in this thread. Anyone, and everyone, who participates in the process of salvation is a co-worker in the work. That the actual Grace of Salvation comes from God is neigther abrogated or denied; the fact is its necessary.

Put another way; if it is soley the Work of the Spirit to convert all to God and accept Christ as Savior, then why did God (Christ) command us to be missionaries? If it is through God alone, in the absolute sense that certain protestants want to interpret it as, then why does He want us to be missionaries? Why not just appear to them Himself and convert everyone he intends to save? What about all those protestant/evangelical missionaries who deride Co-Redemptrix? What are they doing? Why participate if they believe that noone can participate in the Work?

Why can they accept that God uses them as His tools in this world for saving others, yet they reject any suggestion that Mary had any role in it? Granted, I am no “Marianist” Catholic myself, so certain arguments for her veneration fall on deaf ears as far as I am concerned (such as the assumption that God had to use only Mary, and that Christ could not have been born/incarnated without the singular person of Mary), but nor do I find it appropriate to deny even her fundamental role in the History of our Faith. Regardless of the “what ifs” we can imagine, we all agree that Christ was born of Mary, so naming her first among equals (that is, US) is not such a monumentous obstacle. So, what is the real problem with the idea that she gets to be “Co-Redemptrix” over our “co-redeemer/-trix”?

It all comes from God, as we all actually agree. The division comes from misinformed repetition, too much of which is deliberate agenda driven tripe meant to lead others away from the Truth.

 

[Montalban]

Simply because it is the Catholic Church that the fullest expression of the faith is found.

Yet no one can tell me for certain that Mary is, or is not a co-redemptrix.

 

[whosebob]

Yet no one can tell me for certain that Mary is, or is not a co-redemptrix.

JMJ + OBT​

Montalban, may Our Lord bless you and may the prayers of the Most Holy Theotokos strengthen you and aid you in your obedience to the Holy Will of God.

Mary most certainly is the Co-redemptrix if one means to imply by that title what has been repeatedly taught and confirmed by the Ordinary Magisterium of the Catholic Church (see also Cooperation in Redemption by the late Fr. William Most).

She is not, though, a caricature of “co-redemptrix” if one understands that term to imply that God could not otherwise accopmlish the Redemption of Mankind apart from the will and sufferings of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary.

IC XC NIKA

 

[Montalban]

JMJ + OBT​

Montalban, may Our Lord bless you and may the prayers of the Most Holy Theotokos strengthen you and aid you in your obedience to the Holy Will of God.

Mary most certainly is the Co-redemptrix

How can you make a declaration regarding dogma, that’s not been declared dogma?

I also note that the earliest source your cite has is 1884 - unless I missed one

 

[John_Henry]

Here’s a quote from a forthcoming book by Mark Shea. I think it sums up this thread nicely:

Another title sometimes used to honor Mary is “Co-Redemptrix”. It’s not an “official title”. It’s just an expression of piety among some Catholics. And it affords a fairly typical example of the way in which the Church mulls things over for long time (usually centuries) before it makes any hard and fast decisions. At present, the Church doesn’t condemn the title, but it doesn’t encourage it either. A few years ago, Pope Benedict XVI (then Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger) was asked about the many petitions Rome has received asking that Mary be formally declared “Co-Redemptrix.” He replied:
I do not think there will be any compliance with this demand, which in the meantime is being supported by several million people, within the foreseeable future. The response of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith is, broadly, that what is signified by this is already better expressed in other titles of Mary, while the formula “Co-redemptrix” departs to too great an extent from the language of Scripture and of the Fathers and therefore gives rise to misunderstandings… A correct intention is being expressed in the wrong way. For matters of faith, continuity of terminology with the language of Scripture and that of the Fathers is itself an essential element; it is improper simply to manipulate language.

So does this mean the Church condemns those who honor her by this title? No. It just means that Pope Benedict is (rightly) worried non-Catholics will not understand the “correct intention” behind the title. So the title remains, for the foreseeable future, something Catholics may use if it matters to them (providing they rightly understand what it means) but it’s not something one finds in the Church’s liturgy or dogma.

That said, it’s worth asking what “correct intention” lies behind the title. And when we do ask, we discover a truth similar to that behind the similarly unofficial honorific “co-Mediatrix.” For while Mary did not die for our sins, it’s also true that her sufferings were joined to those of Jesus, for the good of the Church. That’s not because she’s a goddess. That’s because the innocent sufferings of every Christian in the world are joined to Jesus’ sufferings for the good of the Church. That’s solidly biblical teaching. It’s why Paul could write “I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church” (Colossians 1:24). And it’s why the Catholic Faith offers such profound consolation for those who suffer innocently. For since Jesus has joined Himself to us in our pain, our pains are joined with his. Our suffering is not simply meaningless garbage that happens to no purpose and does no one any good. Rather, our pain, joined with Jesus on the Cross, has value for His Body, the Church and makes us participants in the redemption of the world.

This is supremely seen in Mary’s endurance of her suffering. For, of course, there are two kinds of agony: the agony we feel for ourselves and the agony we feel for another. Jesus felt all the terror of mortal flesh when He contemplated the fate that was snaking toward Him as the little trail of torches wended its way across the Kidron Valley and up the slope of the Mount of Olives on Holy Thursday evening. He sweated blood and begged to be spared. Three times He pleaded with His Father to let the cup pass from Him. But it could not pass. In that hour, His disciples slept and He was completely alone.

Except for one kindred spirit. We do not know where Mary was at this time. The Gospels are silent. But we know ordinary human experience. We know the anguish of a mother who begs God that her baby be spared the ravages of cancer and that she suffer in her child’s place. We know of parents who drown in the attempt to save their children. We know of parents who push their children out of the way of oncoming cars and are killed or crippled to save them. We know the agonies of parents bereft of their sons and daughters by drunk drivers, or school violence, or the thousand idiot havocs the world wreaks on our lives. We know how powerfully their hearts cry out like David’s and say, “Would that I had died instead of you!” And because of this we know that Mary could not have contemplated the terrible agonies Jesus was about to face without wishing with all her heart that she could take the blows rather than Him. Jesus’ cup was to endure hanging upon the Cross. Mary’s cup was to endure not hanging upon the Cross.

 

[Montalban]

Here’s a quote from a forthcoming book by Mark Shea. I think it sums up this thread nicely:

Then this goes against the notion that the Catholic Church makes up dogma.

It’s either ‘true’ now, or it’s not.

 

[Ron_Conte]

the problem with the terms co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix, Advocatrix is that they have not been properly understood by those who promote them. The current popular understanding of these terms is, in my opinion, contrary to the Faith.

Since Mary is co-Redemptrix, why isn’t she co-Everything-Else? The reason is that the prefix co- does not mean that she cooperates with Christ. If it did, then we would have to put co- in front of every term describing Mary. Rather, the co- prefix refers to us. We do not participate in Christ’s Mediation or Advocacy, because no one can be a mediator or advocate for themselves before God. But we must participate in our own salvation, cooperating with God’s grace. Mary assists us in that task, hence the co- prefix.

Ron

 

[whosebob]

The reason is that the prefix co- does not mean that she cooperates with Christ.

JMJ + OBT​

Actually it does mean that; though the understanding is that her cooperation is subordinate to, and depedent upon, the will and grace of Jesus Christ. Please read that page I linked to which provides a summary of the teaching from the Ordinary Magisterium in that regard.

Our Lord gave Mary the role which it pleased Him to assign to her; whatever cooperative role she played in the objective Redemption of Mankind and whatever cooperative role she fills now in the subjective redemption of each one of us should not be seen as limits on God’s power to redeem us apart from the efforts of one of His creatures. Rather, it pleased him to associate Mary, in an immediate way, with Christ’s life, passion, and death; and it pleases him now to have have her associated in the dispensing of His grace from Heaven.

In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary.

IC XC NIKA

 

[John_Henry]

Then this goes against the notion that the Catholic Church makes up dogma.

True, the Church doesn’t “make up” dogma, but I’m not sure how that relates to what I posted. All Shea said that it takes the Church a long time to decide if certain titles are best applied to Mary or not. Essentially to make sure she is not making stuff up.

It’s either ‘true’ now, or it’s not.

True. But, again, what’s that got to do with it?

 

[buffalo]

The term co-Redemptrix means Mary cooperates, not a co-equal.

 

[natsclem]

I have some very serious problems with this “Mary as Co-Redemptrix” idea.
Is it doctrine or dogma and would you please tell me what is the difference?

To me, and I mean no offence here, it seems to be like…the trinity plus one

Jesus Christ is our Savior and Lord. This idea , okay I am going to say it, seems to be heresy. (And I depise heresy hunters.)

Quite frankly, this may be the deciding issue as to why I must leave my beloved Catholic Church behind me.

Please help me understand and kindly use everyday lanquage,

Thank you. I would really appreciate it.

Doxiemom

have peace, it is not defined yet. if ever it is defined, the term means that Mary is the collaborator, cooperator, sharer in CHRIST’S REDEMPTIVE WORK in a very special, intimate and perfect way but not equally. don’t heed the machinations of the evil one by clouding your intellect with unnecessary and unfounded speculations.

 

[7rosario]

Here is an article that supports the title Co-Redemptrix, which quotes Fr. Faber much:

christendom-awake.org/pages/calkins/corfaber.htm

And here’s the page of Fr. Faber’s book, “The foot of the Cross; or, The sorrows of Mary” in which he explains the term Co-Redemptress
books.google.com/books?id=BfwCAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA448&dq=co-redemptress&as_brr=1&ei=vWejR4XfAo3WzASYkMSrBg&output=html

 

[knightbvm]

I have some very serious problems with this “Mary as Co-Redemptrix” idea.
Is it doctrine or dogma and would you please tell me what is the difference?

To me, and I mean no offence here, it seems to be like…the trinity plus one

Jesus Christ is our Savior and Lord. This idea , okay I am going to say it, seems to be heresy. (And I depise heresy hunters.)

Quite frankly, this may be the deciding issue as to why I must leave my beloved Catholic Church behind me.

Please help me understand and kindly use everyday lanquage,

Thank you. I would really appreciate it.

Doxiemom

Wjere you gonna go? The words to eternal life are right here in God’s Church. The One Holy Apostolic Church—I can assure you that the teaching is consistently tauight by the magisterium and is infallible by virtue that the ordinary magisterium has taught thos over a very constant perioid of time----by the way HELL IS HOT AND FOREVER!!! ON JUDGMENT DAY DONT SAY YOU WERENT WARNED!!!

 

[franjos]

Hi doxiemom,

I was touched by your recent decision to leave our faith (Catholic faith) behind. I realized you are in the search for the true faith now, and I’d like to share to you what the Sovereign Lord Our God has done for me.

Fifteen years ago, I also experienced that struggle you are having over our faith. I met a lot of NON-CATHOLICS and learned from them. I studied their beliefs and doctrines. For a time I struggled over myself and over my mind and my faith. It felt like groping in the dark where you couldn’t see where you are going. All you hear at that moment are different groups shouting “Leave your Catholic faith and come to us, we have the BIBLE and the right faith!” And the more you listen to these voices, the more you get confused.

And now, after those dark times, I remained a Catholic and the Lord made me understand the Catholic doctrine deeply that I can defend it.

Here are some explanations:

Debating about the faith (or about God) to prove who is right or wrong is the way of the proud and the intellectual of this world. Unlike science which can be understood by research, true faith can never be understood by ordinary human intellect. No matter how many books you read, or hear explanations from pastors and priest or even if you read the Bible from cover to cover, you will never understand the true faith. God gives it to those whom he choose. This is the reason why Jesus said “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.” (John 6:65)

Furthermore, we must always humble ourselves before God. For “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.” (James 4:6).

Here are some of tips which will be helpful:

1. Go into your room and pray to God, heart to heart. Confess your sinfulness, and your worthlessness, and accept that without His help, you will be lost. Ask Him to bring you to the true faith. Ask Him this way everyday…He will answer you, because He is infinitely good.
2. Ask prayers from others, as a sign of humility.
3. Let us hope that everyhting turn out well for you.

 

[Doxiemom]

Franjos,
Thank you for your very kind post to me.

I have decided to stay in the Roman Catholic Church. I am trying to understand how Mary is truely observed by the church. And that is not easy to do as the language used is often at too lofty a level to understand if one does not ordinarily use such language.

Father Corapi’s lessons have been very helpful.

I see some of the Mary issue this way( feel free to correct me) :

While other christians see prayer intercession as “the living for the living” we catholics do not confine the “living” to our earthly existence. Those who are alive and well with Jesus , which includes Mary, His mother, are as much a prayer warrior as my own mother.

When the term"star of our Salvation" is used, Mary is indeed a star. Not that she is granting salvation,for, all salvation comes from the shed Blood of our Lord, Jesus Christ. But she is THE shining example.All the apostles, and Paul, had flaws. In the Old Testament, look also at the cast of characters in Jesus’ lineage and see what they were up to time to time.

Mary seems to stand out. Not one flaw can be found. She acted out her role as an obediant servant of Jehovah God. As an living “ark” to nourish and bring into the world God’s Son. She was the one urged by the Holy Spirit to “push” her Son into making wine at the wedding, His first public miracle.

And into her lap, her wounded heart wept, as they placed her boy, the only perfect man to live.

These are indeed deep thoughts to ponder.

I will remain faithful to the Mass. We do well in His Commandment( and it was a commandment, not a suggestion) to Remember His Last Supper.

I pray that those who are zealots of Mary do not tarnish her, or insult the Messiah, or anger the Father, by somehow, bringing more of Mary into the Mass… That is not the Holy Spirit working. That would be the work of the Enemy. And THAT IS MY FEAR.

Today, the protestant world appears to be in chaos. Thousands of churches each with it’s own individual way. While I would never doubt their sincerety in their love of Jesus Christ, or, lower myself to doubt their “christiaity”, the Evil One is doing his work by the chaos and division.

I may never be able to completely hold to all of Rome’s doctrines. But I will remain a loving, thristy for Jesus, Roman Catholic.

And may God have the Mercy on my soul He has promised me.

Doxiemom