Problems with Mary as Co-redemptrix

[carol_marie]

Sometimes, people will accept this trinitarian symbolism but still be uncomfortable with Mary being the third terminus.

I would be one of those people.

Where do you put the Holy Spirit?

 

[demerzel85]

I really don’t see a problem. It’s a wording issue. I don’t think that the word co-redemptrix is accurate. Jesus was the only one slain for our sins, not Mary. At Mass we participate sacramentaly in this sacrafice.

But basically, the term is a latin term, which is like this…

“co” means “with”

“redeem” means “to redeem”

the suffix “trix” indicates a woman

So…the term means “the woman with the redeemer.”

You may use the term “cooperate.” That means “to operate with someone.” Or perhaps “compassion.” That means “to share in another’s suffering.” There’s more.

But does that help? Co-Redemptrix means, at root, “The Lady with the Redeemer”

There really is no problem in terms with in the term itself. The problem comes about when we try to understand based on faulty reasoning and understanding. Every single title accorded to the Blessed Virgin Mary gives praise to the Lord Jesus Christ. Without Mary, our Lord himself would not be able to come into the World as the Word made flesh.

 

[bibleapologist]

Co-Redemptrix means, at root, “The Lady with the Redeemer”

No it doesn’t. It means redeeming together.

We don’t have a need for a mediator, such as a priest anymore. We have Jesus who is our High Priest.

Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast [our] profession.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

First of all we don’t need Mary to co-do anything… especially redeem us. That insinuates a failure on the part of God’s redemptive power in Christ.

Secondly, to claim we need a mediator other than Jesus the High Priest is to claim that our ressurected Lord has somehow failed in His execution of the Gospel. Which, by requiring other mediators to commune with God, His children were not redeemed completely.

Jesus was sent to redeem sinful man to the previous state of man… to a relationship with God such as was present in the Garden of Eden, perfect communion, walking and talking with Him.

I know I have that kind of relationship with Him, and I don’t talk to Mary at all.

John
www.gideonsword.net

 

[carol_marie]

. That insinuates a failure on the part of God’s redemptive power in Christ.

Not necessarily. God did not fail or fall short… but He allows us to participate in the redemptive power of Christ’s sufferings. St. Paul understood this:

I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church… (Col 1:24)

 

[demerzel85]

No it doesn’t. It means redeeming together.

We don’t have a need for a mediator, such as a priest anymore. We have Jesus who is our High Priest.

First of all we don’t need Mary to co-do anything… especially redeem us. That insinuates a failure on the part of God’s redemptive power in Christ.

Secondly, to claim we need a mediator other than Jesus the High Priest is to claim that our ressurected Lord has somehow failed in His execution of the Gospel. Which, by requiring other mediators to commune with God, His children were not redeemed completely.

I know I have that kind of relationship with Him, and I don’t talk to Mary at all.

Umm…the topic is about Co-Redemptrix. You are mixing Co-Mediatrix, which is another topic thats best dealt in a seperate thread.

Its a really pity that Protestants almost always fail to recognise the importantance of the Blessed Virgin Mary. She alone did God the Father choose to be the vessel that carried His only Begotton Son. And God the Father himself asked her for her permission that it could happen. It is also from the Canticle of our Lady (the Magnificat) that we learn of how to have a humble soul and give back to God the praise that is due to him. It as we trace the footstep of the sorrowful mother in the Way of the Cross that we better appreciate the suffering of Our Lord Jesus himself. It is through the Blessed Virgin Mary that one is better able to come into a very deep relationship with Jesus Christ the Word made Flesh. Mary followed Jesus all the way, and is a model for our discipleship. One should not settle for any less.

 

[whosebob]

No it doesn’t. It means redeeming together … Jesus was sent to redeem sinful man to the previous state of man… to a relationship with God such as was present in the Garden of Eden, perfect communion, walking and talking with Him. I know I have that kind of relationship with Him, and I don’t talk to Mary at all.

JMJ + OBT​

In the past few years, I have developed a personal relationship with the Blessed Virgin Mary and also with a few other Saints in Heaven; those personal relationships have been made possible by the power of the Holy Spirit, as is the case with my personal relationship with Jesus. I have found that rather than distracting me from my personal relationship with Jesus, those other personal relationships have drawn me closer to Him!

By the way, for those who would really like to dig more deeply into the subject of Mary as Coredemptrix, I highly recommend this essay:

Cooperation in Redemption
by the late Fr. William Most

An edited, shorter verion of the same esay with a different ending can be found on the Vox Populi site: Mary Coredemptrix in Scripture.

Also see: Ordinary Magisterium on Mary’s Immediate Cooperation in the Objective Redemption.

In Christ.

IC XC NIKA

 

[demerzel85]

bibleapologist;1516400:

. That insinuates a failure on the part of God’s redemptive power in Christ.

How would you interpret Paul’s words here:

I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church… (Col 1:24)

Obviously the point made by ‘bibleaplogist’ doesnt even match up to the condition of continuity of scripture. Sometimes you just got to love whatever St Paul writes in his Epistles.

 

[demerzel85]

By the way, for those who would really like to dig more deeply into the subject of Mary as Coredemptrix, I highly recommend this essay:

Cooperation in Redemption
by the late Fr. William Most

An edited, shorter verion of the same esay with a different ending can be found on the Vox Populi site: Mary Coredemptrix in Scripture.

Also see: Ordinary Magisterium on Mary’s Immediate Cooperation in the Objective Redemption.

In Christ.

IC XC NIKA

Hmm…I think the articles on Co-Mediatrix are needed as well since the concepts have been lumped and mixed in the post made by ‘bibleaplogist’.

 

[Stephen_C]

John (bibleapologist),
First I praise God you have a personal and real relationship with Jesus.
But your wrong as to Mary and what we as Catholic believe. I pray to Jesus every day. I also ask all those who have gone before me to include Our Blessed Mother Mary to pray for me as well.
I have taken a gander at your website and to be quite frank what you have posted about the Catholic faith, and to what the Church believe’s is just well…to try to be charitable, just wrong and mean spirited. Shame on you. It seems you have spent more time reading scripture and trying to put pieces and tidbits together to teardown the Church, then actually allowing the holy spirit to guide you.

 

[batteddy]

How is Christ subordinate to God? Christ was fully God - even when He was a man.

Yes. But his human nature was subordinate to his divine (just as the lower appetites in man should be subordinate to the higher), and he wouldn’t have been able to redeem AS man (and he redeemed us not only as God, but as a representative of Man) if it weren’t for the hypostatic union, which obviously was entirely an action of the Divine because the human didnt even exist yet.

If Jesus were a seperate human person, he couldn’t redeem us. It is only because the humanity is united to a Divine Person that he is able to. And yet, of course, the Divine didn’t strictly speaking NEED to take on a human-nature to redeem. But he chose to mediate it through human flesh anyway.

I agree. You can not separate the natures of Christ. Christ is Both God and Man.

You cannot seperate the natures. But I think some people don’t understand the “Communicatio Idiomatum” completely and so deny any sort of distinction and go to extremes.

The natures cannot be seperated inasmuch as they are one subject, one Person, but they are definitely two distinct natures. God died, but he didnt die in his divinity. He died in his humanity. Such statements are valid: newadvent.org/cathen/04169a.htm

Where do you put the Holy Spirit?

Since the Holy Spirit didn’t incarnate, that role in the redemption is sort of represented by the Church and Mary specifically, the Spirit’s Perfect Icon. Spirit-Church-Israel-Mary are sort of interchangeable symbolically if you read mystical writings and such.

First of all we don’t need Mary to co-do anything… especially redeem us. That insinuates a failure on the part of God’s redemptive power in Christ.

We don’t NEED it, but that doesn’t mean God didnt arrange it anyway to demonstrate his love or teach about the trinity etc…

In a similar way, God didn’t strictly speaking NEED to incarnate and die to redeem us. But he chose to mediate redemption through Christ’s death. And given trinitarian symbolism…a third terminus makes sense. And that is the role of the Church abstractly, and Mary specifically and personally…who is Type of the Church, and Icon of the Spirit.

 

[carol_marie]

Since the Holy Spirit didn’t incarnate, that role in the redemption is sort of represented by the Church and Mary specifically, the Spirit’s Perfect Icon. Spirit-Church-Israel-Mary are sort of interchangeable symbolically if you read mystical writings and such.

.

I don’t understand how those four are interchangable? The Church, Israel, Mary all worship God - the Spirit IS God. Could you explain please?

 

[batteddy]

The Church, Israel, Mary all worship God - the Spirit IS God. Could you explain please?

And yet we symbolically speak of the Church as the “Body of Christ” and having the Holy Spirit as the “soul of the Church” and we speak of Mary as the “Icon of the Spirit” and St. Maximillian Kolbe went as far as calling her relationship with the Spirit a “quasi-incarnation”.

It’s similar to saying the Holy Spirit is the “soul of the Church” of which Mary is the perfect type.

 

[batteddy]

The Church, in using the term “Body of Christ” and having the Holy Spirit “as its soul” have never denied the Church’s (as an abstract entity) divinity and humanity.

From Lumen Gentium:

“Christ, established and ever sustains here on earth his holy Church, the community of faith, hope and charity, as a visible organization[9] through which he communicates truth and grace to all men. But, the society structured with hierarchical organs and the mystical body of Christ, the visible society and the spiritual community, the earthly Church and the Church endowed with heavenly riches, are not to be thought of as two realities. On the contrary, they form one complete reality which comes together from a human and a divine element.[10] For this reason the Church is compared, not without significance, to the mystery of the incarnate Word. As the assumed nature, inseparably united to him, serves the divine Word as a living organ of salvation, so, in a somewhat similar way, does the social structure of the Church serve the Spirit of Christ who vivifies it, in the building up of the body." (Lumen Gentium, paragraph 8a)"

This article seems good: home.nyc.rr.com/mysticalrose/ecclesia.html

 

[johnsummers]

JMJ + OBT​

In the past few years, I have developed a personal relationship with the Blessed Virgin Mary and also with a few other Saints in Heaven; those personal relationships have been made possible by the power of the Holy Spirit, as is the case with my personal relationship with Jesus. I have found that rather than distracting me from my personal relationship with Jesus, those other personal relationships have drawn me closer to Him!

By the way, for those who would really like to dig more deeply into the subject of Mary as Coredemptrix, I highly recommend this essay:

Cooperation in Redemption
by the late Fr. William Most

An edited, shorter verion of the same esay with a different ending can be found on the Vox Populi site: Mary Coredemptrix in Scripture.

Also see: Ordinary Magisterium on Mary’s Immediate Cooperation in the Objective Redemption.

In Christ.

IC XC NIKA

I respect the relationship that you have with Our Lady and the Saints. Anything that brings us closer to our Lord is good. But, there is only one Redeemer; Jesus Christ. The Church has NEVER taught different.

john

 

[kevb]

No it doesn’t. It means redeeming together.

We don’t have a need for a mediator, such as a priest anymore. We have Jesus who is our High Priest.

First of all we don’t need Mary to co-do anything… especially redeem us. That insinuates a failure on the part of God’s redemptive power in Christ.

Secondly, to claim we need a mediator other than Jesus the High Priest is to claim that our ressurected Lord has somehow failed in His execution of the Gospel. Which, by requiring other mediators to commune with God, His children were not redeemed completely.

Jesus was sent to redeem sinful man to the previous state of man… to a relationship with God such as was present in the Garden of Eden, perfect communion, walking and talking with Him.

I know I have that kind of relationship with Him, and I don’t talk to Mary at all.

John
www.gideonsword.net

Hello,
Just curious: Are people ever prayed over at your congregation? Do you think Christ’s power will work through them and their prayers, but not through the Mother of Jesus Christ? You have a relationship with other members of your church and ask for their prayers, but you choose to ignore the Lord’s Mother altogether as insignificant?
When you pray for others, I you’re not trying to “take away” any of the glory from Jesus are you? You’re just allowing yourself to be used as a vessel or instrument of God. It’s not Christ PLUS Mary, or the Saints, or even you or me. It’s Christ THROUGH Mary, the Saints, and us.

 

[Reformed_Rob]

The Magisterium has not yet defined the terms co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix, and Advocatrix (Mary as Advocate, as opposed to Christ or the Holy Spirit as Advocate).

The most commonly cited ideas about what these terms mean are, in my theological opinion, erroneous, particularly the explanation of those terms by vox populi.

here is my article explaining my understanding of those terms and criticizing the usual understanding of the terms:
catholicplanet.com/CMA/index.htm

Ron Conte

Thanks for posting that link, Ron.

I opened it up and read the 13 points you make. I appreciate reading different views regarding this, thought it’s certainly not my main interest. It’s good to see another presentation that presents another Catholic line of thought.

 

[demerzel85]

I respect the relationship that you have with Our Lady and the Saints. Anything that brings us closer to our Lord is good. But, there is only one Redeemer; Jesus Christ. The Church has NEVER taught different.

john

I think the perspectiv you are taking is lacking the depths of the Sacred Deposit of Faith given to the Church that was founded by Jesus himself, has been visible ever since and the gates of hell would never prevail against. Catholic teaching is far deeper.

scripturecatholic.com/saints.html
scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html

 

[JKirkLVNV]

No it doesn’t. It means redeeming together.

We don’t have a need for a mediator, such as a priest anymore. We have Jesus who is our High Priest.

First of all we don’t need Mary to co-do anything… especially redeem us. That insinuates a failure on the part of God’s redemptive power in Christ. **I think rather a lot hung on the Blessed Mother’s fiat, her “Behold the handmaid of the Lord, be it done unto me according to your word.” And it isn’t remotely insinuating “a faiure on the part of God’s redemptive power in Christ.” It’s part and parcel of the same." **

Secondly, to claim we need a mediator other than Jesus the High Priest is to claim that our ressurected Lord has somehow failed in His execution of the Gospel. Which, by requiring other mediators to commune with God, His children were not redeemed completely. **Well, semantic problems aside (and we would have a few) and with a bald reading of your words, it doesn’t imply anything of the kind. The Catholic Church clearly teaches that we are redeemed solely through Christ, His Passion, His Death, His Resurection, and that nothing may be added to Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross. But was this redemption not made possible because a little teenage Jewish girl said “yes” to an rather outrageous and downright frightening proposition? Redemption COST Mary, not in the measure it cost Christ, but it certainly cost her (all through her life, but especially at the foot of the Cross). And Protestants barely give her a nod, except at Christmas. **

Jesus was sent to redeem sinful man to the previous state of man… to a relationship with God such as was present in the Garden of Eden, perfect communion, walking and talking with Him.

Righto. And God willed that the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Great Theotokos, would have a substantial role in that redemption, subsidiary only to One other.

 

[CatherineofA]

Let me also be frank with you, Doxiemom, and this goes beyond the issue at hand so lets set that aside for now, OK?

Going over your past posts and seeing your uncritical acceptance of the heretical “Left Behind” behind theology, and your Protestant terminology when it comes to soteriology (the truths of salvation), you are, by all appearances, already more Protestant than Catholic in your thinking about the Faith. It is obvious that you have been reading and listening to Protestant teachers to such a point that you have embraced that manner of thinking and now favor it over solid, orthodox Catholic teaching. For example, can you call to mind the last ten religious books, magazines, TV or radio shows you have read in the last six months? Are they mostly Catholic – or Protestant? I think I can predict.

As your sincere brother in Christ, I lovingly and unashamedly BEG you to nip this in the bud before it’s too late. If you really want to save your Catholic Faith, jetison the Protestant material and immerse yourself in solid CATHOLIC teaching. I’m sure many here would be happy to offer suggestions. You are in my prayers

Vince

If a Protestant can experience the fiorgiveness of Christ and can go to Heaven, why is it so important that she remain Catholic?

 

[demerzel85]

If a Protestant can experience the forgiveness of Christ and can go to Heaven, why is it so important that she remain Catholic?

Simply because it is the Catholic Church that the fullest expression of the faith is found.