Problems with the Book of Mormon

[ParkerD]

Ok, so he was receiving visions in his dreams of what was to be? Is this documented somewhere?

I am biting my tongue.

Rick,
The quote previously quoted was from a book written by Joseph’s mother. She wrote from memory, so when she described Joseph telling the family about the Nephites and their mode of dress, etc., I suspect she was describing a period of time over the years from 1823 to 1827, and yes, Joseph had dreams or visions about the Nephite people during those years, before he started translating the Book of Mormon. (He was seeing the past, not the future.) He was also visited several times by Moroni, and instructed by him. The book is History of Joseph Smith. The passage is on page 83.

 

[ParkerD]

I still have yet to see any explanation as to the use of Common Greek words like “Christ”, “Apostles”, and so forth when these “Jews” supposedly left Israel prior to the conquest of Alexander and the spread of Hellenism and the Greek language.

I still have yet to see an explanation of how Jesus’ name could be known to these “Jews” before it was announced to Mary by the angel or before His ministry in Israel.

I still have yet to see evidence that native americans spoke Greek or Hebrew or Aramaic or any derivative of these languages since they would have to be the descendents of, or would at least have definitely come in contact with, these “Jews”.

Grey Pilgrim,
Remember that the Book of Mormon testifies of prophets who knew things by revelation. God of course knew what name Jesus Christ would have, and so did the Holy Ghost. They could reveal that knowledge to a prophet, and did so including by means of an angel who spoke to a prophet named King Benjamin. He testified in 124 BC:

“…great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people. And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary.” (Mosiah 3:8)

The same goes for the word “Apostles”, revealed to Nephi in 1 Nephi. Nephi also saw that the Bible would go forth throughout the world to testify of Christ, and that John would have a special prophecy to write.

The language of this ancient people would have become totally changed by the 1500’s when the Europeans came to America. The Nephites were all killed by 421 AD, many of the Lamanites were killed and those few who were left were a nomadic people, deteriorating because of their unbelief and because at that point they had no written records and thus no consistent source to keep their language the same. People constantly on the run and constantly at war would not stop to write any history down. It only takes a few centuries for language to change dramatically. Also, these people were assimilated by other cultures around them over time, with different languages of course.

 

[ParkerD]

you know what No, why doesnt the mormon point it out for me since According to you i am in complete misunderstanding of what he Mormon lie says…

Dark Knight,
You do have a lot of misunderstanding, including about the Bible. If someone leaving on a trip tells another person, what their ultimate destination is, that doesn’t mean they were telling an untruth if they also stop along the way at other places for other purposes.

Remember, there were 12 tribes, not just the Jews, and Jesus loved the people from all of those tribes. Where were the descendants of the other tribes? Why couldn’t Christ have a purpose in visiting them, since he loved them and would want to let them know that the law of Moses was fulfilled and that they could receive the full “good news” of the new covenant of the gospel? He had concern for people all over the world, and still does–especially for the lost tribes of the house of Israel.

 

[Dchsknight]

Dark Knight,
You do have a lot of misunderstanding, including about the Bible. If someone leaving on a trip tells another person, what their ultimate destination is, that doesn’t mean they were telling an untruth if they also stop along the way at other places for other purposes.

Remember, there were 12 tribes, not just the Jews, and Jesus loved the people from all of those tribes. Where were the descendants of the other tribes? Why couldn’t Christ have a purpose in visiting them, since he loved them and would want to let them know that the law of Moses was fulfilled and that they could receive the full “good news” of the new covenant of the gospel? He had concern for people all over the world, and still does–especially for the lost tribes of the house of Israel.

Because, All the tribes of the HEBREWS are jews. and all the tribes are not lost, they formed into either Jerusalem or Judea. The 12 tribes Scattered with the end of the Old Testament. Which is way after your BOM. Plus, why does the BOM say that those in the Americas married the Daughters of Ishmeal. when the Daughters of Ishemal were not anywhere near the Americas. The Decendents of Ishmeal are now called Palestinians. That is why there is so much hatred between Palestine and Isreal, because this fight has been going on since Issac and Ishmeal.

 

[Dchsknight]

Dark Knight,
You do have a lot of misunderstanding, including about the Bible. If someone leaving on a trip tells another person, what their ultimate destination is, that doesn’t mean they were telling an untruth if they also stop along the way at other places for other purposes.

Remember, there were 12 tribes, not just the Jews, and Jesus loved the people from all of those tribes. Where were the descendants of the other tribes? Why couldn’t Christ have a purpose in visiting them, since he loved them and would want to let them know that the law of Moses was fulfilled and that they could receive the full “good news” of the new covenant of the gospel? He had concern for people all over the world, and still does–especially for the lost tribes of the house of Israel.

And point out to me about where i misunderstnad about the bible? I want to know, because what i believe about the Bible comes from the Infallible Teaching of the Church and are protected by God Himself from Error.

 

[LDSGuy]

And point out to me about where i misunderstnad about the bible? I want to know, because what i believe about the Bible comes from the Infallible Teaching of the Church and are protected by God Himself from Error.

Knight, you fail to understand our actual beliefs, because you fail to look at LDS sources before looking at anti-LDS sources, and you also fail to answer the temple question, because you lied about your finding Satanic phrases on the temple. Both current and former LDS members know that you made up your account of finding invocations of Demons on the temple and asking a Greek or Latin specialist to interpret them. The fact that you answer all of my inquiries with copy/pastes of anti-LDS websites proves that you will never be able to substantiate your claim that there are Satanic phrases on Mormon temples. I guarantee that you will answer me post either with no answer or another attack/“why don’t Mormons answer this” statement, because you cannot back up your claims. This is why both LDS and Catholic posters do not take you seriously here.

 

[Dchsknight]

Knight, you fail to understand our actual beliefs, because you fail to look at LDS sources before looking at anti-LDS sources, and you also fail to answer the temple question, because you lied about your finding Satanic phrases on the temple. Both current and former LDS members know that you made up your account of finding invocations of Demons on the temple and asking a Greek or Latin specialist to interpret them. The fact that you answer all of my inquiries with copy/pastes of anti-LDS websites proves that you will never be able to substantiate your claim that there are Satanic phrases on Mormon temples. I guarantee that you will answer me post either with no answer or another attack/“why don’t Mormons answer this” statement, because you cannot back up your claims. This is why both LDS and Catholic posters do not take you seriously here.

Mr. Mormon, I took me a while to back my claims of Satanic symbols and such on the temples cause i had to go digging in my External Hardrives for all the stuff i have found. Hope your ready for it.

 

[Dchsknight]

Frist Image is a Sunstone, which was apart of the Nauoo temple and is also apart of the Druidism Deities of Sun Worship.

Second is the all-seeing eye, it is also used in pagan rituals and Satanism as well as the Illuminati and Mason Rites.

The Thrid and fourth are star symbols and inverted Pentagrams on all keystones of all enteries also straight up Satanism.

And after Calling my Roommate, because he is a friend, I found out that i was Mistaken on what i thought was a temple. It was infact just a regular church. and the Stuff i saw was paintings and such, the pictures i had to find were of things on full temples.

 

[LDSGuy]

Mr. Mormon, I took me a while to back my claims of Satanic symbols and such on the temples cause i had to go digging in my External Hardrives for all the stuff i have found. Hope your ready for it.

thank you for finally responding. If you will notice from post #37 on this thread (by you), you said you saw “words” at the top of the temple, and you “took to the Latin Teacher at the College and he said it was in Greek. and he said they were Characters and phrases that invoked Demons, they were usualy used in Wicen and Witchcraft.” (your exact words). Please tell me how the pictures you attached, apparently from your external hard drive, are “characters and phrases that invoked Demons, that are usually used in Wicen (I’m assuming Wicca) and Witchcraft”. From what you attached, I see no words that are in Greek, as your Latin Teacher at the College stated. Could you clarify which characters are in Greek, and the translation that your Teacher did? If you cannot, members of this forum (Catholic and non-Catholic) will assume that you made it all up. Your pictures do not have Greek phrases as you claimed are on top of LDS temples. Therefore we assume your other statements are not based in fact. Please prove your original statements on the Greek Satanic demonic invocations on the temple, as your pictures do not show any Greek whatsoever.

 

[LDSGuy]

Frist Image is a Sunstone, which was apart of the Nauoo temple and is also apart of the Druidism Deities of Sun Worship.

Second is the all-seeing eye, it is also used in pagan rituals and Satanism as well as the Illuminati and Mason Rites.

The Thrid and fourth are star symbols and inverted Pentagrams on all keystones of all enteries also straight up Satanism.

And after Calling my Roommate, because he is a friend, I found out that i was Mistaken on what i thought was a temple. It was infact just a regular church. and the Stuff i saw was paintings and such, the pictures i had to find were of things on full temples.

please explain what these symbols have to do with Greek, as you claim earlier in this thread. Also, what are you claiming was on a “regular church”? Which church (name and location)? Which temple (name and location) did you find these pictures? If you are uncomfortable, please PM me these sources, unless you are making them up…I anticipate your direct response.

 

[LDSGuy]

Frist Image is a Sunstone, which was apart of the Nauoo temple and is also apart of the Druidism Deities of Sun Worship.

Second is the all-seeing eye, it is also used in pagan rituals and Satanism as well as the Illuminati and Mason Rites.

The Thrid and fourth are star symbols and inverted Pentagrams on all keystones of all enteries also straight up Satanism.

And after Calling my Roommate, because he is a friend, I found out that i was Mistaken on what i thought was a temple. It was infact just a regular church. and the Stuff i saw was paintings and such, the pictures i had to find were of things on full temples.

are you claiming that all temples have Pentagrams? Please provide proof. Also, did you know that the pentagram was used by traditional medieval Christianity? What does the all-seeing eye mean? What is the sunstone? It seems that you are unable to substantiate your many claims, and when asked to, you either ask another question, say you are a “knight”, or quote more anti-Mormon websites directly. This hardly is proof of your claims, which is also why none take you seriously here, though I find amusement in talking to you. Please read actual Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints material before making authoritative claims about my religion, as many here, including former members of the LDS Church, realize that you have erroneous claims, as evidenced in this very thread, if you actually, carefully read it and the links I have provided, which I doubt you have carefully read.

 

[Jerusha]

Awwww!!! C’mon. I don’t care about the symbolism. I always liked the sunstone. A nice piece of stone sculpture.

 

[ParkerD]

Because, All the tribes of the HEBREWS are jews. and all the tribes are not lost, they formed into either Jerusalem or Judea. The 12 tribes Scattered with the end of the Old Testament. Which is way after your BOM. Plus, why does the BOM say that those in the Americas married the Daughters of Ishmeal. when the Daughters of Ishemal were not anywhere near the Americas. The Decendents of Ishmeal are now called Palestinians. That is why there is so much hatred between Palestine and Isreal, because this fight has been going on since Issac and Ishmeal.

Dchsknight,
I’m hoping you don’t really think that there could only be one Ishmael who ever lived. Your assumption that the Ishmael described in 1 Nephi is the same person as the son of Abraham, who lived over a thousand years earlier, is of course not true.

If you would, turn in your Bible to the book of Daniel. Daniel was with a group of people from the kingdom of Judah who had been captured by the Babylonians in about 606 BC. He interpreted the dream of the king, Nebuchadnezzar, who was the king of Babylon from 604 BC to 561 BC. Cyrus king of Persia conquered Babylon during Daniel’s lifetime. See Daniel 10:1. Also see Ezekiel 17:12,21.

The conquering of the kingdom of Judah by the Babylonians took several years time. Lehi’s family and also a separate group led by one of the sons of king Zedekiah named Mulek left Jerusalem in about 600 BC, before the complete capture of the entire kingdom of Judah by Nebuchadnezzar. Both the group led by Lehi and the group led by Mulek came across the ocean to the Americas. (Nebuchadnezzar had previously conquered the Assyrian empire.)

Assyria had previously conquered the “Northern kingdom” called the kingdom of Israel (led by the tribe of Ephraim) in about 721 BC. Some groups of people from the kingdom of Israel left secretly, some to the north into mountains. This is part of the “scattering of Israel.” So also was the conquering by the Babylonians and the secret departure from the kingdom of Judah by groups such as Lehi and Mulek part of the “scattering of Israel.” This “scattering” was prophesied many, many times in the Old Testament. See the book of Hosea, for example. He lived around 750 BC in the kingdom of Israel.

 

[ParkerD]

And point out to me about where i misunderstnad about the bible? I want to know, because what i believe about the Bible comes from the Infallible Teaching of the Church and are protected by God Himself from Error.

Dchsknight,
Please see my prior post in partial answer. Also, the way you treat people in no way resembles what Christ taught in the Sermon on the mount. I don’t think that your act of trying to mimic Christ in how he responded to the Pharisees, is what He would want you to do or taught people to do in the Sermon on the mount. I think you are off-base with your approach.

But don’t get all mad. I agree with what you said a while back that you’re not perfect and therefore need Christ in your life. Getting Christ in your life means you can change from mistakes, go through a process of “repentance”, and really be changed within your own heart, meaning you will act differently and feel differently. You will have peace in your heart instead of a sword.

 

[why_me]

To quote Mark Twain:

I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.

• Mark Twain in Eruption

Man is kind enough when he is not excited by religion.

• A Horse’s Tale

Religion consists in a set of things which the average man thinks he believes, and wishes he was certain.

• Notebook, 1879

I wouldn’t quote mark twain. He was rather bias against religion in general.

 

[Jerusha]

Perhaps his attitude towards religion had to do with the fact that he was raised 80 miles from Nauvoo during the time of the troubles? Kinderhook is only a few miles from Hannibal. Kinderhook-- as the Kinderhook plates? Surely you remember about that?

 

[ParkerD]

Perhaps his attitude towards religion had to do with the fact that he was raised 80 miles from Nauvoo during the time of the troubles? Kinderhook is only a few miles from Hannibal. Kinderhook-- as the Kinderhook plates? Surely you remember about that?

Samuel Clemens’ attitude toward religion was, it appears to me, influenced by the obvious hypocrisy he observed in some of the supposedly religious people of his day. He also wrote with humor, because that was one of his trademarks. I love Twain’s writings, including The Mysterious Stranger.

Charles Dickens wrote about the Mormons who were emigrating to Utah in his time and said they were the “salt of the earth.”

 

[Jerusha]

Samuel Clemens’ attitude toward religion was, it appears to me, influenced by the obvious hypocrisy he observed in some of the supposedly religious people of his day. He also wrote with humor, because that was one of his trademarks. I love Twain’s writings, including The Mysterious Stranger.

Agreed!!

 

[Dchsknight]

Dark Knight,
You do have a lot of misunderstanding, including about the Bible. If someone leaving on a trip tells another person, what their ultimate destination is, that doesn’t mean they were telling an untruth if they also stop along the way at other places for other purposes.

Remember, there were 12 tribes, not just the Jews, and Jesus loved the people from all of those tribes. Where were the descendants of the other tribes? Why couldn’t Christ have a purpose in visiting them, since he loved them and would want to let them know that the law of Moses was fulfilled and that they could receive the full “good news” of the new covenant of the gospel? He had concern for people all over the world, and still does–especially for the lost tribes of the house of Israel.

OK that does make sense, but Jesus solidfies his destination and that he is going to heaven and no were else, when he says, “If it were not so i would have told you” So again either Jesus lied or the mormons lied.

 

[Dchsknight]

Dchsknight,
Please see my prior post in partial answer. Also, the way you treat people in no way resembles what Christ taught in the Sermon on the mount. I don’t think that your act of trying to mimic Christ in how he responded to the Pharisees, is what He would want you to do or taught people to do in the Sermon on the mount. I think you are off-base with your approach.

But don’t get all mad. I agree with what you said a while back that you’re not perfect and therefore need Christ in your life. Getting Christ in your life means you can change from mistakes, go through a process of “repentance”, and really be changed within your own heart, meaning you will act differently and feel differently. You will have peace in your heart instead of a sword.

Also wrong, what did Jesus say about the Peace keepers…NOTHING he said Peace Makers. Sis pacis instruo pro bellum: If you want Peace prepare for War.