Problems with the Book of Mormon

[The_GreyPilgrim]

Grey Pilgrim,
Remember that the Book of Mormon testifies of prophets who knew things by revelation. God of course knew what name Jesus Christ would have, and so did the Holy Ghost. They could reveal that knowledge to a prophet, and did so including by means of an angel who spoke to a prophet named King Benjamin. He testified in 124 BC:

“…great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people. And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary.” (Mosiah 3:8)

The scientologists also claim that they received their beliefs by revelation. So is their belief system as valid as yours?

As far as the name. God the Father gave His Son the name “Yeshua”, in Hebrew it means “God saves.” In Greek and Latin it is translated to Iesus, English Jesus. “Christos” is a surname that early Christians added on and is the Greek term translated from the Hebrew word “messiah” meaning “anointed.”

Again, these were Hebrews from Judea who left Judea prior to the Hellenization of their lands. The Greek word “Christos”-from which we derive the word “Christ”-would have no meaning to them. There is no way this prophet could know the Greek language. And it would make no sense for God in his wisdom to send an angel to teach this “prophet” a language that he didn’t know and then deliver the prophecy. The angel would have spoken to him in Hebrew, the language that he knew.

Also your belief of Jesus being God the Father is heretical. God does not exist in modes. Jesus and the Father and the Holy Spirit are separate persons, not the same person.

The same goes for the word “Apostles”, revealed to Nephi in 1 Nephi. Nephi also saw that the Bible would go forth throughout the world to testify of Christ, and that John would have a special prophecy to write.

Again, the is no way Nephi could know Greek. The angel would have spoken to him in Hebrew.

The language of this ancient people would have become totally changed by the 1500’s when the Europeans came to America.

This begs the question.

The Nephites were all killed by 421 AD, many of the Lamanites were killed and those few who were left were a nomadic people, deteriorating because of their unbelief and because at that point they had no written records and thus no consistent source to keep their language the same.

This also begs the question.

The Israelites were enslaved in Egypt for 400 years and managed to still speak the same language despite the fact that they had no written records. It’s called oral tradition. If the Israelites could keep their oral traditions alive long enough to reach freedom and peace so that they could be written down what made these Israelites any different?

Or one could surmise that maybe they didn’t even exist and thats why there’s no record.

People constantly on the run and constantly at war would not stop to write any history down. It only takes a few centuries for language to change dramatically. Also, these people were assimilated by other cultures around them over time, with different languages of course.

The first sentence begs the question.

The second sentence is debatable. In the instance of the Hebrew language, which was considered a sacred language by all Jews, I highly doubt would just be “forgotten”.

There are and were always scribes present to write down the events of history, especially during times of conflict, today we call them journalists. Regardless there would still be some trace of them somewhere in the historical record, there’s not.

The Israelites were taken over and assimilated by Babylon, Assyria, Persia, Greece, Hellenized Syria, Egypt, and Rome within the last 700 years b.c.; yet they still managed to mantain their own cultural identity and language while being almost under constant seige and being exiled. And during their exile still many writings of their history and prophecies were made and saved. How do you explain this?

You can explain it away all you want, the lack of archeological and anthropological evidence that these Hebrews came here cannot. No use of Hebrew, no images of the Temple, or of the Torah, or of the Tablets that contained the Ten Commandments. But out of an attic in New York comes these “revelations” of these plates that conveniently speak of a “New Testament” which is really a fanciful story with old heresies mixed in?

The constant quoting, even wrenching out of context, of numerous scripture passages verbatum which were suppose to be of “revelation” before they were even written by Paul or the other inspired writers of the NT show me that the BOM is nothing more than a fanciful story written with the albeit limited advantage of hindsight by Mr. Smith. It is a farce with no historical context to back it up.

 

[ParkerD]

Grey Pilgrim,
If you had been Joseph Smith and were seeing words and dictating those words to a scribe, and if during the process you saw the word “apostle” and the words “Jesus Christ” and so you dictated those words, would you stop and say to yourself “Wait, I can’t use Greek words because it will look like I am making this all up.” It sounds like you would. Joseph dictated the words he saw, by revelation. He didn’t care about your opinion on the matter. Neither do I.

Truth is truth. If Scientologists figure out some truths, if your church leaders do, if writers and philosophers and thinkers through the ages do, then the truth that they have figured out is still true. They can call it inspiration, revelation, epiphany, whatever they want to call it. If what they think is true is not true, then it is false and their belief in that falsehood will in some way lead them down a wrong path and it will not help them.

If you believe the Bible, then you believe in the scattering of Israel. If you believe in the scattering of Israel but also believe the “children of Israel” would never lose their language of origin, then it ought to be clear in the world today which people are descendants of scattered Israel, and they all ought to speak the very same language. I disagree with your logic. Do all the Jews in the world speak perfect Hebrew?

Your logic is clever, and allows your own self-deception, which is fine with me. God actually has given you exactly what you want, so why should I wish anything different for you? You have what you want. That’s great.

 

[Dchsknight]

Grey Pilgrim,
If you had been Joseph Smith and were seeing words and dictating those words to a scribe, and if during the process you saw the word “apostle” and the words “Jesus Christ” and so you dictated those words, would you stop and say to yourself “Wait, I can’t use Greek words because it will look like I am making this all up.” It sounds like you would. Joseph dictated the words he saw, by revelation. He didn’t care about your opinion on the matter. Neither do I.

Truth is truth. If Scientologists figure out some truths, if your church leaders do, if writers and philosophers and thinkers through the ages do, then the truth that they have figured out is still true. They can call it inspiration, revelation, epiphany, whatever they want to call it. If what they think is true is not true, then it is false and their belief in that falsehood will in some way lead them down a wrong path and it will not help them.

If you believe the Bible, then you believe in the scattering of Israel. If you believe in the scattering of Israel but also believe the “children of Israel” would never lose their language of origin, then it ought to be clear in the world today which people are descendants of scattered Israel, and they all ought to speak the very same language. I disagree with your logic. Do all the Jews in the world speak perfect Hebrew?

Your logic is clever, and allows your own self-deception, which is fine with me. God actually has given you exactly what you want, so why should I wish anything different for you? You have what you want. That’s great.

When you mix a little Truth with a lie, it is still a Lie.

Jews never spoke perfect Hebrew, They had many Dialects that differed from tribe to tribe, also the Scattering took place after the Babylonian Captivity. and No tribe would dare leave during that, because they had the covenant that the messiah would come. They never left, EVEN ask the jews now if any tribes left, because they will tell none did. The only Tribe that could have left, was the Half tribe of Mannasah which at the time of Jesus and a bit before, were called Samaritans, from Samaria. Even they held fast to the Promise of the Messiah.

 

[StevieD]

The GreyPilgrim has done an excellent analysis of mormon beliefs. However his description of Mormonism as a “farce” is an understatement, it teaches rank and outrageous heresies. The Mormons believe that God the Father was once a man as we are and that just as He became a God, so can we (this is not something an ‘investigator’ or new convert is likely to be told). They also believe that our God is only the local God and that he has a God and so on ad infinitum, that we pre-existed our birth, that Satan and Jesus were ‘spirit brothers’ and hold other totally unchristian doctrines. It took one convert (now a Catholic) two years to discover that he was expected to believe all this.

The Mormons always attack their critics for not quoting from LDS official sources but these are totally untrustworthy, where they do not contain outright falsehoods, they are extremely selective in what they disclose. The loose relationship between the LDS and the truth becomes really apparent when you examine their membership claims. If you look at a recent claim for numbers in Chile, the LDS state that they have over 500,000 members but the latest census states that just over 100,000 people claimed membership (this is an overclaim of over 80%!). They also do not remove the baptised/non-active from their rolls until 110 years after their dates of birth! They claim over 13 million adherents but a close look at the figures shows that active members cannot exceed 4 million - and their apologists call this a ‘major religion’! Take a look at mormonproblems.blogspot.com

 

[ricko]

If you had been Joseph Smith and were seeing words and dictating those words to a scribe, and if during the process you saw the word “apostle” and the words “Jesus Christ” and so you dictated those words, would you stop and say to yourself “Wait, I can’t use Greek words because it will look like I am making this all up.” It sounds like you would. Joseph dictated the words he saw, by revelation. He didn’t care about your opinion on the matter. Neither do I.

Ah, Joseph Smith said there were no Greek or Latin words in the BOM.

“The error I speak of, is the definition of the word “MORMON.” It has been stated that this word was derived from the Greek word mormo. This is not the case. There was no Greek or Latin upon the plates from which I, through the grace of God, translated the Book of Mormon Let the language of that book speak for itself.”

It is too convenient to say that JS was receiving these visions/dreams of stories in a book yet to be found. To those of us with a discerning eye, it is obvious that he was making it up in his mind.

 

[Jash]

They also believe that our God is only the local God and that he has a God and so on ad infinitum, that we pre-existed our birth, that Satan and Jesus were ‘spirit brothers’ and hold other totally unchristian doctrines. It took one convert (now a Catholic) two years to discover that he was expected to believe all this.

The Mormons always attack their critics for not quoting from LDS official sources but these are totally untrustworthy, where they do not contain outright falsehoods, they are extremely selective in what they disclose.

We do believe that god once was as we were but I have never seen anything to support the first statement quoted above.

We also believe we pre-existed our birth as spirits and that the purpose in coming to the earth was to obtain a physical body.

We also believe that Satan, Jesus, you, I, every other male that has or will ever live on this earth and an additional third who will never live on this earth were and are brothers.

How are these Unchristian?

 

[Dchsknight]

ah, joseph smith said there were no greek or latin words in the bom.

“the error i speak of, is the definition of the word “mormon.” it has been stated that this word was derived from the greek word mormo. This is not the case. there was no greek or latin upon the plates from which i, through the grace of god, translated the book of mormon let the language of that book speak for itself.”

it is too convenient to say that js was receiving these visions/dreams of stories in a book yet to be found. To those of us with a discerning eye, it is obvious that he was making it up in his mind.

amen brother!

 

[ricko]

We do believe that god once was as we were but I have never seen anything to support the first statement quoted above.

We also believe we pre-existed our birth as spirits and that the purpose in coming to the earth was to obtain a physical body.

We also believe that Satan, Jesus, you, I, every other male that has or will ever live on this earth and an additional third who will never live on this earth were and are brothers.

How are these Unchristian?

They are all unChristian but you have to be a Christian to know that.

God was never as we were
We never had a pre existence
Satan was an angel, Jesus is God

 

[Dchsknight]

They are all unChristian but you have to be a Christian to know that.

God was never as we were
We never had a pre existence
Satan was an angel, Jesus is God

 

[prodigalson12]

They are all unChristian but you have to be a Christian to know that.

God was never as we were
We never had a pre existence
Satan was an angel, Jesus is God

 

[Jash]

They are all unChristian but you have to be a Christian to know that.

God was never as we were
We never had a pre existence
Satan was an angel, Jesus is God

Thank you for your very enlightening explanation in beautiful color.

If we never had a pre existence:

What is spirit?
Where does it come from?

As to what Satan was, where do you support that statement Biblically?

Where do angels come from?

 

[Dchsknight]

Thank you for your very enlightening explanation in beautiful color.

If we never had a pre existence:

What is spirit?
Where does it come from?

As to what Satan was, where do you support that statement Biblically?

Where do angels come from?

God Created Angels. God Made Lucifer, Along with all the other Angels, Who just like at that time had to have free will, But when Lucifer fell, The angels had to Choose him or God, And they after that Choice they had no free will.

 

[prodigalson12]

Thank you for your very enlightening explanation in beautiful color.

If we never had a pre existence:

What is spirit?
Where does it come from?

As to what Satan was, where do you support that statement Biblically?

Where do angels come from?

We have genesis to reference where everything comes from, it’s relative to all of creation as we know it as man, yet clearly, it does not nor ever will cover where the angels came from, for they pre-existed the creation of the planet and the universe we reside in itself.

Having being exposed to this religion, I was told that you believe you pre-plan your life before you were even born, this very much coincides with an occult perspective for that is what many there also believe Now, take this further and you will see the error in this judgement. God knows all in all ways and manners including everything we ever will do entirely because he stands outside of the time line, not because we are pre-programmed to perform like in a play, not having any free will within it. Don’t feel bad here, it’s a common struggle we as man face entirely because we can only perceive things within linear time.

The spirit of man comes into formation and creation upon the moment of conception, prior to that, there is non existence.

Here is something that also is something that comes to mind when going over the Joseph smith and his experiences. If this was a real experience, where he saw what he perceived as an angel and was given tablets, how can you be sure “what” angel it is, the devil can assume any form he desires, this includes appearing as an angel of light. We as man have limited capacity to discern these things and are easily fooled.

I’m going to let the other posters, post the biblical quotes in regards to the rest, there are many.

 

[Jash]

God Created Angels. God Made Lucifer, Along with all the other Angels, Who just like at that time had to have free will, But when Lucifer fell, The angels had to Choose him or God, And they after that Choice they had no free will.

[Genesis] does not nor ever will cover where the angels came from, for they pre-existed the creation of the planet and the universe we reside in itself.

Sorry, which of these do catholics believe? Did God create Lucifer or do you just not know?

 

[Dchsknight]

Sorry, which of these do catholics believe? Did God create Lucifer or do you just not know?

Book of Enoch and Revulation and other Sacred writtings from Jewish to early Christian fore fathers talk about were the Angels Come from. What we do know from the BIBLE, is that God Created All living beings, and Yes Genisis does cover were Angels Came from, Genisis 1:1 In the beinging God created the Heavens and the Earth" Heavens, That includes everything in it. ONLY God is the only Being Not made. Everything else was Made by him, Except Sin, That is a tool of the Devil Sin was made when Lucifer fell and Sin was intruduced to us, By The devil in the form of the Snake To eve.

 

[ParkerD]

Ah, Joseph Smith said there were no Greek or Latin words in the BOM.

“The error I speak of, is the definition of the word “MORMON.” It has been stated that this word was derived from the Greek word mormo. This is not the case. There was no Greek or Latin upon the plates from which I, through the grace of God, translated the Book of Mormon Let the language of that book speak for itself.”

It is too convenient to say that JS was receiving these visions/dreams of stories in a book yet to be found. To those of us with a discerning eye, it is obvious that he was making it up in his mind.

Rick,
Then what you’re saying is that Joseph Smith had one of the most brilliant minds who ever lived. The literary and logic and characterization complexity in the Book of Mormon would astound a serious scholar who really spent the time to study the book. But of course they don’t, because they would be laughed at by people like you who think they know what they are talking about. You know nothing on this subject.

By the 1800’s, the words “Jesus Christ” and “apostle” were assimilated into the English language. What words do you think Joseph Smith should have used to make clearly understood what was being communicated from those ancient prophets?

 

[ricko]

Rick,
Then what you’re saying is that Joseph Smith had one of the most brilliant minds who ever lived. The literary and logic and characterization complexity in the Book of Mormon would astound a serious scholar who really spent the time to study the book. But of course they don’t, because they would be laughed at by people like you who think they know what they are talking about. You know nothing on this subject.

By the 1800’s, the words “Jesus Christ” and “apostle” were assimilated into the English language. What words do you think Joseph Smith should have used to make clearly understood what was being communicated from those ancient prophets?

First we are told the BOM was translated by God through JS and his “seer stone”, an image would appear and disappear only when the translation was correct. Then “the most correct book ever written” has 4,000 errors. Exact passages from the KJV are found in the BOM. All of this is brushed aside by the LDS as editors errors and such. JS used the KJV in place of passages because “it was the language of the time”. So we are expected to believe this? That God could not do it right? And the King’s English was not in use at that time in America. Read the Constitution, it’s in English as we speak today. Even a French word (adieu) is in the BOM. We are expected to believe that Americans could not understand “goodby” and had to use adieu instead? Jesus never referred to himself as Jesus Christ yet in the BOM he says “I am Jesus Christ” Same time period as the bible yet on the other side of the ocean he uses a different name. Now look, what I printed above is a small percentage of problems with the BOM. So, in the words of the BOM, I bid you ADIEU.

 

[PaulDupre]

Thank you for your very enlightening explanation in beautiful color.

If we never had a pre existence:

What is spirit?
Where does it come from?

As to what Satan was, where do you support that statement Biblically?

Where do angels come from?

God made everything through Jesus, His Word. As the Gospel of John says,

In the Beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. All things that were made were made by him, and without him nothing was made that was made.

• John 1:3

The angels were made by God through Jesus. Lucifer is one of those angels. He is not our brother, he is an angel, a being of spirit. Spirits (those of angels and of humans) are made by God through Jesus - angels prior to the creation of the universe, and humans at the moment of conception.

 

[Jash]

Book of Enoch and Revulation and other Sacred writtings from Jewish to early Christian fore fathers talk about were the Angels Come from. What we do know from the BIBLE, is that God Created All living beings, and Yes Genisis does cover were Angels Came from, Genisis 1:1 In the beinging God created the Heavens and the Earth" Heavens, That includes everything in it. ONLY God is the only Being Not made. Everything else was Made by him, Except Sin, That is a tool of the Devil Sin was made when Lucifer fell and Sin was intruduced to us, By The devil in the form of the Snake To eve.

So then we being living things and in the earth are created of god. If Lucifer was an angel, we are to become angels, all created of god and Christ calls God our Father, would that not make us brothers?

Consider Christs words to Mary in John 20:17: “go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.” Clearly here the 12 at least and Christ are brethren. Yet the 12 were created by God…

 

[ParkerD]

First we are told the BOM was translated by God through JS and his “seer stone”, an image would appear and disappear only when the translation was correct. Then “the most correct book ever written” has 4,000 errors. Exact passages from the KJV are found in the BOM. All of this is brushed aside by the LDS as editors errors and such. JS used the KJV in place of passages because “it was the language of the time”. So we are expected to believe this? That God could not do it right? And the King’s English was not in use at that time in America. Read the Constitution, it’s in English as we speak today. Even a French word (adieu) is in the BOM. We are expected to believe that Americans could not understand “goodby” and had to use adieu instead? Jesus never referred to himself as Jesus Christ yet in the BOM he says “I am Jesus Christ” Same time period as the bible yet on the other side of the ocean he uses a different name. Now look, what I printed above is a small percentage of problems with the BOM. So, in the words of the BOM, I bid you ADIEU.

Fare thee well also, and may God be with you. (Adieu)