Problems with the Book of Mormon

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I am sorry that my comments appeared to make you very unhappy. I think it is important to seek the good in every religion and let the spirit guide us as we seek truth. I was recently involved in an interfaith service, for my community. It was during November 2008 and the different faiths came and shared how they give thanks. It was very sweet and wonderful to build relationships with those of other faiths. We all seem to be trying to arrive at the same place. That place being our perception of what Heavenly Father is. We are trying to emulate him. I left that meeting with a feeling of appreciation for all those different faiths that are trying to do good in the world and are trying to learn TRUTH. I felt like they were all my brothers and sisters and that we had much in common. There is no doubt that we also differ a great deal on theology, but with a spirit of cooperation, love, service, compassion and brother/sisterhood - we can all appreciate the good in all religion - still continuing to find TRUTH.

I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I have been taught deeply through out my life. I do not profess to know everything, but I do know a lot. I just turned 40, so I have many years of gaining knowledge through my religion, under my belt. Twice a week I have gone to Church (since I was very small). One of which would be Sunday and the other a mid week activity. Then I attended seminary during High School. That is just about every school day for approximately 50 minutes of scriptural study. Every year we would rotate through The Old Testament, New Testament, Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants. We would attend four years of study, during that time. I did this and then through college attended more religious classes. We do not have a paid ministry in our religion. We are called to serve and teach. I have been serving in this capacity my whole life. There is a lot of time invested in this service. Great amounts of prayer and study and time. I have attended other meetings and activities that have further instructed me. I mention this to let you know the TIME I have invested in my religious study and search.

In all that time of study and service in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints I can say that I do not find truth in your previous statements about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (unless they were just opinions, and in that case we are all entitled to our opinions).

I will take just one example. If you go to this web site you can read about our view on apostasy lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=2dd843097758b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____

It is a long article, but if read all the way through, it gives a lot of insightful information about our beliefs on that subject. The article gives rise to other things that would be interesting to discuss or research more, but like all knowledge, it is gained one day at a time. We can’t have a perfect picture or understanding with one article, one conversation, one week of study or even one year. Knowledge is built line upon line, precept upon precept - until we come to a more perfect understanding. Any Church should not be judged by an imperfect member and a comment taken out of context or even unknowingly misunderstood. We can search from many different angles to gain a better understanding. To explain triginomitry to a small child would seem silly. They need to learn the fundamental first, line upon line etc. until they are able to understand the bigger picture. As adults if we want to learn a new subject, we start at the beginning and build our knowledge until it becomes clear. I could not play the piano with skill, just by hearing it described. It requires a great deal of investment. So does understanding some ones religion. It will require a great deal of investment of time to gain a correct understanding of what is being taught. The source is still the best place to begin. And researching doctrine, not someone’s interpretation or opinion of doctrine. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints does have doctrine. It can be viewed and seen.

Sorry you have had such unpleasant experiences with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (or so it appears). I can say that I have been truly blessed by my relationship to Christ and guided through many trials, by the Savior. I love learning of Christ and how I can improve my life and influence my family, my community, my world for good. I hope your previous unpleasant experiences can fade away and you can find the truth that you seek. I have great faith that you will. It appears that you are already working hard toward that goal. May Heavenly Father grant you greater comfort in your journey and peace. I am just a fellow friend wishing you happiness and praying for your success.

P.S. I recently watched a show on fox. A minister, along with his wife was being interviewed (just last night). This man was not of my faith. I could feel his goodness. He replied to a question, that I do not remember now. The part I loved was when he answered: “You need to use your faith in the right way.” We can exercise faith in the negative. I think the use of faith for the positive and honest search for truth will yield desired results. But that the use of faith to talk negatively about someone or something will also yield results. They will just not be good results. Happy Hunting!
 
I think it is important to seek the good in every religion and let the spirit guide us as we seek truth… We can search from many different angles to gain a better understanding. …We can exercise faith in the negative… I think the use of faith for the positive and honest search for truth will yield desired results… Happy Hunting!
And happy hunting to you. :cool: Sorry I took your comments out of context, but that happens sometimes. 😉
 
Here - Here. Always a fun journey - this hunting business…especially with fellow travelers. Seems like there is something to learn from everyone. I for one enjoyed your kindness. My husband likes this quote (I’m not sure why I feel the need to share it 😃 "Don’t cry because it is over, smile because it happened. Dr Seuss. I say “All for one and one for all” 3 muskateers That is a good quote too…childhood has some of the best of them. Good hunting!
 
THE LAST POST WAS MINE AND IT WAS TOO LONG SO I HAD TO CUT OUT SOME REFERENCES (which can be still be viewed at
lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=661105481ae6b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1

AND THE END OF MY POST WOULD HAVE SAID THIS (IF I HAD HAD MORE ROOM):

I hope this information is useful and possibly leads those who have a question about a different religion, than their own, to go to the source. If I wanted to learn about Judaism or the Catholic faith etc. I hope I would go to their specific Church and ask the question. As I hope I would if I had a question about any religion. I feel we should go to their church and ask their leaders and dig in and find the information - first hand, what they believe - not what others say they believe. Good luck with your search for truth. I am working on my search also and I know because we are looking - it will be found. May we all feel like brothers and sisters on a journey toward everlasting life. I feel that we are all connected and share common ground that we can build on. Good hunting!
proselyting is against forum rules
 
I was correcting an incorrect statement that should be answered from the source. I was quoting the source. Sorry if that was misinterpreted. I am fine with stopping my communication. I was taken by surprise when I stumbled across this website and found incorrect information about my religion. I assumed that would be interesting to someone. Happy Hunting!
 
I was correcting an incorrect statement that should be answered from the source. I was quoting the source. Sorry if that was misinterpreted. I am fine with stopping my communication. I was taken by surprise when I stumbled across this website and found incorrect information about my religion. I assumed that would be interesting to someone. Happy Hunting!
🙂

Maybe boil it down and not post an entire copywritten article?

It is your comments about “go to the source”, it has become the mantra of every Mormon that comes here. I have seen it at LDS “how-to-be-a-Cyber-missionary” sites as the thing to be posted in answer to any critical question of your faith.

As majick said, “go to the source”, would be fine, if “the source” actually had what Mormons believe and teach.
 
Maybe boil it down and not post an entire copywritten article?VERY GOOD POINT I WILL WORK ON THAT!! I worried that I would expand too much and get it muddled in my attempt to share it. Quoting from a person authorized to speak as Doctrine makes the misunderstandings diminish. Regardless, I understand it was too lengthy.

It is your comments about “go to the source”, it has become the mantra of every Mormon that comes here. I have seen it at LDS “how-to-be-a-Cyber-missionary” sites as the thing to be posted in answer to any critical question of your faith. Actually I thought that it was a very normal comment. We don’t have photographic memories and we are taught to teach from doctrine, so a discussion is good and healthy, but when it becomes apparent that the information is being quoted or used as doctrine or more than just a friendly discussion, I think quoting from the source is better. If I didn’t know how to spell a word in school I was told to look it up in the dictionary. Before the internet (yes I am that old) and I wanted to learn something…say about investing, I would talk to an investment advisor, not just a fellow investor. Likewise, If I wanted to get a correct answer about the Catholic faith, wouldn’t I ask your leaders and they would point me to where it is written as doctrine? I could also ask a member, but if I then quoted that member using their comments as Catholic doctrine…to me that is wrong. Maybe I could have misunderstood them or got it wrong - or they might not have it exactly the correct way that their doctrine states. If I quote something I think is a Catholic belief - I would expect it to be from their doctrine - not just some ones interpretation of the doctrine.

As majick said, “go to the source”, would be fine, if “the source” actually had what Mormons believe and teach. Not sure what you mean by that. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints Doctrine can be found and viewed. Scripture, General Conference talks and many other sources. That information is available to all. LDS.org has it all. I’m not clear on what your statement is implying, but it appears to be implying that there is no written source where The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints gets their beliefs. Easy to find on lds.org if you wanted to find it. You can even search by key words to find the information about what we believe on that site. It is an OFFICIAL site. Not just another member writing about our beliefs. It is the real deal, an official website of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Can’t go wrong with that. If it is there it is part of our beliefs. That is a source. That makes sense to me. What makes more sense to you? Quoting from the opposite of the source? Not sure I’m interpreting your comment correctly.

Our church is very clear on what is doctrine of our religion. We are reminded to teach from the Doctrine…not to divert from it. Personal opionion can be misunderstood for doctrine, so the leaders remind us to teach from the doctrine (which is the source I am referring to). That way misunderstanding about what we believe, can be diminished. And if we are speaking the truth from doctrine (source) than the spirit can testify if it is true or not. If we divert from it and add something we have gotten wrong, then the spirit doesn’t have the chance to testify about the truth. I hope that makes sense and clears up why I say hear it (read it) from the source.

Have you ever played telephone as a child. It is a basic communication exercise. As you hear something from someone else and it gets passed along, from person to person, the information gets misunderstood, changed etc. Maybe not intentionally. It is a fun example of how communication breaks down. So if you had the written sentences of what the first person said at the beginning of the game…then the last person to repeat it could just read it and get it right. That isn’t part of the game though and what really happens is that every one is vastly entertained by how changed the message is at the end of the party phone line as compared to the original message…which is then read out loud. Very few people have photographic memories and things that are important should be found from the source from which they came, if they are going to be used to base an opinion on. Some things are too important to guess at or rely on the party line. Some things in life can be used that way though. I think the word of Heavenly Father is too important to miss quote, when someone is using what you say as the answer. The source is safer to quote from. Where can the misunderstanding be there?

About cyber missionary work…I have never hear of that. Maybe you can send me your source. I am not aware of any official church sanction of that. I would imagine that it is others of our faith communicating through the net. But lds.org would point you to any official website from the church. There is a difference between members of a church posting information and official posted church information. I would love to view any official cyber missionary work. I suspect that there isn’t any…but I will await your source to verify.

Thank you. Let me know if I misunderstood anything you mentioned…truley I desire truth, not just my interpretation. I am ready to re-evaluate an incorrect issue. But I am all about sources when it comes to something important and this is important to me.

 
Well I thought so, because we can use them to officially teach from, but I think I need to ask my leaders that again, to see if I remember that correctly. The below statement is an official statement:

This comes from lds.org

This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted.

The last sentence is what gives us pause and reminds us to refer back to doctrine.

Happy Hunting!
 
HOLLY:

I recommend you read Dr. Walter Martin’s “Kingdom Of The Cults” for a thoroughly researched and explained history of Mormonism. Of course any mormon will tell you that the book is fiction, but everything that Dr, Martin has written is true and can be proven true.
 
I could also ask a member, but if I then quoted that member using their comments as Catholic doctrine…to me that is wrong. Maybe I could have misunderstood them or got it wrong - or they might not have it exactly the correct way that their doctrine states. If I quote something I think is a Catholic belief - I would expect it to be from their doctrine - not just some ones interpretation of the doctrine.
Problem is, you have individual LDS with different interpretations. And the whole, Mormons believe what is doctrinal, isn’t really factual in practice. Many Mormons believe AND teach ideas that are not currently at your LDS websites. But, they themselves were taught this by your church.

Your doctrine changes. People maintain belief in what they were taught.
Easy to find on lds.org if you wanted to find it. You can even search by key words to find the information about what we believe on that site. It is an OFFICIAL site. Not just another member writing about our beliefs. It is the real deal, an official website of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Can’t go wrong with that. If it is there it is part of our beliefs. That is a source. That makes sense to me. What makes more sense to you? Quoting from the opposite of the source? Not sure I’m interpreting your comment correctly.
It is a discussion we’ve had here many times with LDS. Mormons believe and teach many things that are not at the lds.org website.
Our church is very clear on what is doctrine of our religion.
I disagree.
We are reminded to teach from the Doctrine…not to divert from it. Personal opionion can be misunderstood for doctrine, so the leaders remind us to teach from the doctrine (which is the source I am referring to). That way misunderstanding about what we believe, can be diminished. And if we are speaking the truth from doctrine (source) than the spirit can testify if it is true or not.
And there’s the rub. Individual Mormons get different confirmations of the “spirit”.
If we divert from it and add something we have gotten wrong, then the spirit doesn’t have the chance to testify about the truth. I hope that makes sense and clears up why I say hear it (read it) from the source.
No, your definition of doctrine does not make sense to me.
Have you ever played telephone as a child. It is a basic communication exercise. As you hear something from someone else and it gets passed along, from person to person, the information gets misunderstood, changed etc. Maybe not intentionally.
Would be a good analogy if it were true. Your church taught the things that you are calling a “communication breakdown”. There was no miscommunication.
Where can the misunderstanding be there?
Your source changes.
There is a difference between members of a church posting information and official posted church information. I would love to view any official cyber missionary work. I suspect that there isn’t any…but I will await your source to verify.
Every member a missionary? lds1.org.
 
Well I thought so, because we can use them to officially teach from, but I think I need to ask my leaders that again, to see if I remember that correctly. The below statement is an official statement:

This comes from lds.org

This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted.

The last sentence is what gives us pause and reminds us to refer back to doctrine.

Happy Hunting!
so we can see that this means that the self proclaimed “oracles of the lord” are not speaking doctrine when addressing general conference…except that the D&C contradicts that and says otherwise.

we can see though that even when taken at face value this is problematic because LDS “standard works” change, sometimes rather substantially, and in the case of the bible, come with a disclaimer. (only where translated correctly)

Mormon doctrine is NOT clearly defined, DOES change and is interpreted differently by individual mormons all the time.
 
If a person has access to living water but doesn’t know about it, or if a person has living water in their life but stops letting it enrich their life with new insights and knowledge, then the stopped progress is like a dam in comparison to the flow of water. The water has been dammed.

I would like to drink from the purest source of water I can find, the living water. It is enlivening. It is not a catachism or an edict. It is a well of water that never dries up, and always brings new insights and additional understanding.
i derive great spiritual fulfillment from the body and blood of Christ just as his apostles did when he gave it to them.
 
Very interesting everyone. I can see that we do not agree. Doctrine gets added to and changes with the dispensation. We believe in continued revelation, hence more doctrine to come. The Doctrine during Moses’s time changed, due to that season changing. We do not still follow that doctrine exactly. Many other examples of that time. During the time of Christ the Jewish Religion didn’t believe in continued revelation. They rejected Christ. 2 Peter 1:20-21 (Words of servants moved upon by Holy Ghost scripture too, Lev 27:34 Jews rejected new revelation in Jesus’s time Lev. 27:34 was their reason. Heb 1: 1-2 Early Christians floodgates of revelation opened again, Rev 1:1 Angel talked to John the Baptist-Scripture not closed. Many other examples of Doctrine being added to and open at different times.

I was researching to see if General Conference was considered doctrine and the loose answer is yes…I was looking for more information on that, to give a well documented official answer…but since you want to find fault I need to stop trying to share. The spirit of contention only breeds more contention. Anyway I have made an error in thinking this could be a positive discussion. I see no reason to continue to answer these questions. I am being misquoted and misunderstood some of the time, which can only do more harm. If you are dead set against a religion…I guess you are not open to understanding it correctly. I am glad I have come in contact with people from other religions that do not try to convince me I am wrong with disrespect…but are really interested in my beliefs and visa versa. If we disagree, it is with respect and not an attack of your wrong I’m right. Those are enlightening discussions and both parties gain greater understanding about each other. This thread is bordering on an attack, instead of an exchange of information. Not Christ like…so I apologize for trying to share my views. I hope you can accept my sincerest apology for trying to share what is in my heart and what I believe. Again I was so surprised by the incorrect representation of my faith, when I stumbled across this website, so I posted. I enjoyed reviewing my beliefs and, in that, I have found great comfort and hope. I hope those who enjoy that kind of exchange appreciated the effort. I hope to find other avenues to learn more about others in a positive exchange of beliefs. To all those who do not malign another religion - Good Hunting! And to those that do…well - Good Hunting also!
PS I will be pulling my subscription so I will not comment anymore. I wanted to clarify that in case anyone asks me more and is confused when I do not respond. My spirit is cringing from the attacks and there really isn’t a healthy path here, as is. Adieu!
 
Adieu HopeTrail. Sorry to lose you. I earnestly pray that God, the Holy Spirit, takes away the veil of darkness from your eyes and lets you see the true light that is His word.

Meanwhile:

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem
 
I was researching to see if General Conference was considered doctrine and the loose answer is yes…I was looking for more information on that, to give a well documented official answer…but since you want to find fault I need to stop trying to share.
Sometimes the truth may hurt. You may of come here to correct things according to your “understanding”, but the examples may not have been appropriate for you and rather challenging just you,……I would suggest reading the numerous threads that are on topic with LDS doctrines and proofs, and see another perspective.

Adieu! 🙂
 
I have a very close friend who is a good Catholic and a great Christian. I think he would be ashamed to know that forums are being used by members of his religion to slander others rather than build on commonalities and spread Christ’s true message of love and tolerance. If you are so confident that you have the truth, talk about that truth! Don’t waste you time with contentious slander. “A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.” “Feed my sheep.” Christ always did this in a positive manner and was concerned with what he knew to be true… His Father’s will! If any of us know His Father’s will then let us speak of that. I was very uplifted by a recent Good Friday mass that I attended with my friend. Afterward everyone was very positive and good-hearted. I left with a sense that maybe we can bridge our theological differences and find the common ground that can bring peace to all and further Christ’s work as the Prince of peace. Forums such as this have the exact opposite effect and bring about the sort of contention that only Satan could want us to feel in our hearts. Please, all I ask is that you consider this.

Thank you and God bless!
 
Well I thought so, because we can use them to officially teach from, but I think I need to ask my leaders that again, to see if I remember that correctly. The below statement is an official statement:

This comes from lds.org

This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted.

The last sentence is what gives us pause and reminds us to refer back to doctrine.

Happy Hunting!
Poor HopeTrail was new to the Internet and he or she gave it their best. The articles that are found in church magazines are not lds doctrine. Doctrine is found in the four standard works and in official proclamations and declarations. However, there are lds that believe that what they hear in a lds general conference is doctrine but it is not. Here is an article from the lds magazine that some may be interested in reading:

lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=f318118dd536c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=1ac4105560440210VgnVCM100000176f620a____&hideNav=true

In the article it mentions home teachers. Home teachers (All male members) are members of the lds church who visit the families that are assigned to them to see if that family is okay or in need of help. They usually visit once a month. They can also give a short gospel message to that family.
 
I have a very close friend who is a good Catholic and a great Christian. I think he would be ashamed to know that forums are being used by members of his religion to slander others rather than build on commonalities and spread Christ’s true message of love and tolerance. If you are so confident that you have the truth, talk about that truth! Don’t waste you time with contentious slander. “A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.” “Feed my sheep.” Christ always did this in a positive manner and was concerned with what he knew to be true… His Father’s will! If any of us know His Father’s will then let us speak of that. I was very uplifted by a recent Good Friday mass that I attended with my friend. Afterward everyone was very positive and good-hearted. I left with a sense that maybe we can bridge our theological differences and find the common ground that can bring peace to all and further Christ’s work as the Prince of peace. Forums such as this have the exact opposite effect and bring about the sort of contention that only Satan could want us to feel in our hearts. Please, all I ask is that you consider this.

Thank you and God bless!
You are right. I have often said this also on this section of the forum. Here is one lds proclamation that catholics can agree with in spirit (give or take some doctrinal issues in the proclamation):

lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=e1fa5f74db46c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=1aba862384d20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____
 
I have a very close friend who is a good Catholic and a great Christian. I think he would be ashamed to know that forums are being used by members of his religion to slander others rather than build on commonalities and spread Christ’s true message of love and tolerance. If you are so confident that you have the truth, talk about that truth! Don’t waste you time with contentious slander. “A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.” “Feed my sheep.” Christ always did this in a positive manner and was concerned with what he knew to be true… His Father’s will! If any of us know His Father’s will then let us speak of that. I was very uplifted by a recent Good Friday mass that I attended with my friend. Afterward everyone was very positive and good-hearted. I left with a sense that maybe we can bridge our theological differences and find the common ground that can bring peace to all and further Christ’s work as the Prince of peace. Forums such as this have the exact opposite effect and bring about the sort of contention that only Satan could want us to feel in our hearts. Please, all I ask is that you consider this.

Thank you and God bless!
When LDS can discuss their religion in truth, perhaps then you would find that “contentions”, that is the truth of their beliefs being exposed by non-LDS, would end.

As it is, most LDS are deceptive about what they believe, and what their church teaches, or has taught. If they find it “contentious” that there are people who know the truth and who do not participate in their deception. So be it.
 
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