Proclaiming the bride and not the bridegroom

[2nd_Adam]

I have enjoyed my time on Catholic Answers tremendously. I definitely enjoy my Catholic siblings in Christ. I have noticed that many Catholic siblings like to proclaim the bride. However, I believe Scripture reveals that we should be proclaiming the bridegroom instead of the bride. Do you think my assessment is correct?

It is a naïve assessment as is the title of the thread, which will likely lead to a naïve, false an incorrect conclusion.

The amount of time a person spends on the subject does not always proportionally reflect his belief system. I can see this approach similar to some Protestants’ contention that ‘since Catholics’ prayer is more about Mary than Jesus therefore Mary is more important than Jesus’.

The substance of the discussion depends on what the topic is. If it is about the church then we talk about it and similarly, if it is about Jesus. I don’t see any correlation that this should mean a person is proclaiming more about the Church and less about Jesus. It just does not apply.

By the way, how does one proclaim Jesus? What are the visible signs of Jesus on earth? What did he leave behind so that people can see and know by looking at them they would see and know Jesus too? How can we see and know Jesus if we do not see and know what symbolizes, depicts and the things he left behind?

You are mistaken if you think that by talking about his Church we are not proclaiming Jesus.

While I think you’re correct that there are a few Catholics on this forum who loudly proclaim the Church while ignoring Jesus in their rants, they are a small (though loud) minority. It seems the majority of Catholic members proclaim the Church as the path to Christ, rather than the end of a path itself.

Quite sadly, many do. I’ve seen a number of posts that talk of the Church but manage to excize Christ from it.

The members who actually do this are few and far between, as far as I’ve noticed, but they do appear. I can’t think of any names right now - and even if I could I don’t think it charitable to point fingers. If you watch for it, I’m sure you’ll see it.

 

[eucharisteo]

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

Yes, Jesus is the way the truth and the life. The Church leads us to Him. The Saints lead us to Him. The Angels lead us to Him. God used Angels and men throughout history to bring man to Him. The Jews are the chosen people of God. We are adopted sons and daughters of God. By our baptisms we share in Christ’s inheritance as prophet, priest and king. Understanding the Church Christ left us, the packaged present to us is key to coming to know Christ. I usually place an analogy here comparing the patina on an antique to the ancient Traditions of the Church. Protestants have a washed down version of what Christ left us. We are a community of people, not just individuals.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Yes, Jesus is the way the truth and the life. The Church leads us to Him. The Saints lead us to Him. The Angels lead us to Him. God used Angels and men throughout history to bring man to Him. The Jews are the chosen people of God. We are adopted sons and daughters of God. By our baptisms we share in Christ’s inheritance as prophet, priest and king. Understanding the Church Christ left us, the packaged present to us is key to coming to know Christ. I usually place an analogy here comparing the patina on an antique to the ancient Traditions of the Church. Protestants have a washed down version of what Christ left us. We are a community of people, not just individuals.

I believe God the Holy Spirit uses primarily the Gospel and Sacred Scripture to lead us to Christ! It is interesting that we have two different perspectives here.

 

[Lapey]

Spiritual Blessings in Christ

Alive in Christ

T

Apostolic Teaching

Okay, so you can quote Ephesians and Colossians, how do these verses prove anything you assert as truth? St. Paul is part of the Church hierarchy preaching to part of the laity of the Body of Christ.

 

[guanophore]

For the Apostle Paul, he clearly proclaimed the bridegroom. Some Catholics never even mention Jesus in our discussions. Yet the Catholic Church is consistently proclaimed to me.

Have you considered that this is because it is not the nature of Christ that you are here disputing, but the teachings of the Catholic Church?

 

[Lapey]

I believe God the Holy Spirit uses primarily the Gospel and Sacred Scripture to lead us to Christ! It is interesting that we have two different perspectives here.

No its not odd, you fail to realize that these two main ingredients you site, Holy Spirit and Sacred Scripture is the Catholic Church. The Church is the bride of the Bridegroom, Christ! Happy?

The free gift of salvation won for us by the sacrifice on the cross flows through the Catholic Church.

Now do you only want a fraction or all of the salvific Grace offered by Christ? Its your choice. The fraction you have chosen so far is scripture. Saving Grace flows in the sacraments of His Church.

 

[guanophore]

I just wonder if this is possible. How could Christ be ignored by proclaiming the Church, which is His body?

No, it is not, as we can see from the Scriptural record. However, the goal of the Reformers in inventing doctrine was to break away from the Catholic Church. The “Jesus alone”, “faith alone”, “grace alone” etc. purposefully takes the Church out of the picture.

 

[guanophore]

I have to respectfully disagree. We don’t proclaim the church to the church. Rather, we proclaim Christ to the church. Grace and truth in found in the person of Jesus Christ! All the riches is found in the person of Jesus Christ. We are to be built up in Him and not the Church. We proclaim Him and not the Church.

I think that separation and division are fruits of the Reformation. As the tree is bent, so it grows.

I will agree that all those in the Church need to have Christ brought to them, and this is what happens in daily Mass.

But your characterization of “this…and not that” is what is erroneous. Jesus is not separated from his One Body, the church.

Eph 1:22 And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, Eph 1:23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.

The Church is the fullness of Him who fills all in All because He is the Head, and He is not separated from His One Body.

 

[imkingdad]

Catholics can miss Jesus by proclaiming the Church instead of Christ.

Protestants can miss Jesus by proclaiming the Scriptures instead of Chrst.

You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, - John 5:39

Put On the New Self

If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

---

Finally an ounce of truth, “Protestants can miss Jesus by proclaiming the Scriptures instead of Christ”.

Protestants proclaim Paul above all & hence diminish the Truth of Christ, Christ’s own words and teachings, the clear establishment of His Church here on Earth, His unique & total adherence to the 4th Commandment RCC version, 5th in the Protestant version of the decalogue especially as it has to do with Mary, denying the scriptures when inconvenient - the various Passages quoting the Body & Blood of Christ and Tradition, especially inconvenient for those literal adherents of the Word.

God our Father wants every soul to be saved, Christ wants His Church to be One -
on Earth & in Heaven because the Body of Christ is in both Places at this time. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to Protect & Defend His Church and Its Teachings, to inspire the Bible & to protect it, and to ensure that Holy Tradition was established & preserved. Lastly Jesus Gave us 7 sacraments, not 1 not 2, but 7. the greatest being the Holy Eucharist - the body, blood, soul & divinity of Jesus Himself.

So while you complain of hearing so much about the Church & not enough about Jesus your own commentary above states that your side of the Aisle is just as guilty as us. Could it be that you see so clearly and so easily recognize the sins in us that you are so guilty of?

When we speak about the Church we are speaking about Christ Jesus, He is the founder of It. He is the Life of It. He is shared with each & everyone of us everyday, every time we participate in the Mass. So if you feel that we are only leading you to a church you’d be wrong. We are trying to lead you to Christ, for Christ is the embodiment of the Church just as he is the embodiment of the Word. He is the head & we are the body. His Word Is Life. He is the Word made Flesh.
He is Truth Incarnate.

We find & acknowledge Christ in Scripture, Tradition, within the Church He founded & has preserved. But Not Only Jesus, but the glory of the Holy Spirit and God our Father to whom we are Reconciled through Christ. This is why the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church has endured all these centuries and will continue to do so until Christ comes in His Glory to judge the living & the dead.

I hope you heard enough about Christ here to assuage your earlier concerns.
Yours in Christ,

 

[eucharisteo]

I believe God the Holy Spirit uses primarily the Gospel and Sacred Scripture to lead us to Christ! It is interesting that we have two different perspectives here.

Jesus is our salvation. Had he not come to redeem us we would not be saved. I’d say that what you say is true, but it doesn’t stop there. You forget that the sacred scriptures are part of the Church, a tool created for the purpose of saving us… But it can not stop there because it is only a part of the deposit of faith. Sacred Tradition is that part of the deposit of faith that gave us the scriptures in the beginning… This is true for even the Jews. We also need to understand what they mean and therefore the Majesterium, the leading body of Christ placed here to guide ut through understanding our faith in a correct sense, was also handed down to us. The bible is very important. But it is not the end in of itself. Some Protestants have bibles in place of sacramentals. It gets to a point where it looks like they actually worship the bible. There are even songs made about the bible - some that sound idolatress even though not meant to be. I have a very strong devotion to scripture, having read it in much depth throughout my life. It was sacred scripture that saved me from the trap of solo scriptura.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

"2nd Adam:

Catholics can miss Jesus by proclaiming the Church instead of Christ.

Protestants can miss Jesus by proclaiming the Scriptures instead of Chrst.

And yet 2nd Adam you found only your first premise worthy of its own thread. Care to open the second premise as a thread and see how it goes?

God bless

I think the reason you wont open the thread is because you know it will inflame our Protestant brothers and sisters and not lead to constructive dialogue. Accusations such as that usually do exactly what I described. I wonder though why you thought it a good idea to create the first premise as a thread when I think you know that the second was disrespectful?

Do you do it on purpose 2nd Adam?

God bless

 

[guanophore]

Roman_Catholic;6004449:

I think the reason you wont open the thread is because you know it will inflame our Protestant brothers and sisters and not lead to constructive dialogue. Accusations such as that usually do exactly what I described. I wonder though why you thought it a good idea to create the first premise as a thread when I think you know that the second was disrespectful?

Do you do it on purpose 2nd Adam?

God bless

Yes, he did. He was getting pressed against the wall on the other thread about the sufficiency of Christ, and started this thread to avoid answering questions over there.

He seems to forget that he is not here on CAF finding fault with the person and nature of Christ, but with the Catholic Church. Given that, most of the posts addressed to him focus on his misunderstandings of the Catholic Church, and the defence of her doctrine.

There is one Mormon here who approached him for dialogue, but he refuses (put him in a 'doghouse" becuase he has a different christology.

 

[Marie5890]

Many times in these threads (and I am speaking generally of the Non-Catholic forum) I am reminded of how people would ask questions of Christ not in sincerity but in order to trap Him.

I always pray to be able to discern those who are genuine and sincere in their questions, and those whose intent it to trap and ensnare…

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Yes, he did. He was getting pressed against the wall on the other thread about the sufficiency of Christ, and started this thread to avoid answering questions over there.

He seems to forget that he is not here on CAF finding fault with the person and nature of Christ, but with the Catholic Church. Given that, most of the posts addressed to him focus on his misunderstandings of the Catholic Church, and the defence of her doctrine.

There is one Mormon here who approached him for dialogue, but he refuses (put him in a 'doghouse" becuase he has a different christology.

That’s funny because I was put in the dog house in that thread very early on. I wasn’t “playing by the rules” of his thread because I saw through his *‘Christianity is a 100% work based salvation’ *statement. I never went back to see if I ever made it out

God bless

 

[crazzeto]

I have enjoyed my time on Catholic Answers tremendously. I definitely enjoy my Catholic siblings in Christ. I have noticed that many Catholic siblings like to proclaim the bride. However, I believe Scripture reveals that we should be proclaiming the bridegroom instead of the bride. Do you think my assessment is correct?

My answer is “it depends”, you’re on Catholic Answers! Most of us are Christian’s already, even the non-catholics (yes, I know there are some others as well but they are the minority). In particular, most debates I’ve seen you in have been chalk full of Christian’s. The Bridegroom is accepted by all in the debate, thus the debates isn’t over Christ the debate is over a proper understand as our role as the Bride of Christ. In this case, I would disagree with you completely, it’s proper to proclaim the bride and not the bridegroom. Because our audience already accepts the bridegroom, that’s not the question.

On the other hand, for people like my Athiest friend who is currently investigating the Christian faith I take a different tact entirely. She’s currently lost, in the truest sense. Whta I mean by this is she’s never experienced the unconditional love of God in anyway. Even her parents were well, not the best. Her father I hate to say was a terrible example. She and her brother were left with old clothing, essentially begging for scraps, while they lived in a nice big house in a well to do suburb of Raleigh NC, and her parents owned such luxuries like an airplane. Clearly, in that family the kids were the bottom priority, they got whatever little was left over after the parents got what they wanted.

This has left my friend unable to trust in an unconditional love like Gods, she has this impediment blocking her ability to accept this. So, in this case my evangilism is nothing but Christ, and the love of Christ. If she get’s to the point where she can accept that much, and joins about any church I’ll be happy. Sure I’d love her to join the CC, but for this one just joining any church would be a victory of epic proportions! I can’t even tell you how elated I would be.

So… Yeah Adam, you have to specify your terms. More over, I find it interesting that you keep preaching calvinism, keep not answering questions posed to you, and keep turning back to “christian love” as a sheild it would seem.

 

[Cr8ton]

Catholics can miss Jesus by proclaiming the Church instead of Christ.

Protestants can miss Jesus by proclaiming the Scriptures instead of Chrst.

You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, - John 5:39

Put On the New Self

If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

I still think 2nd has a noble reason for proclaiming this to all Christians, Catholic and Protestant alike.

We are too mindly focused and place to much emphasis on the visible earthly things. If we just lead people to Jesus Christ as revealed in the Scriptures. The Holy Spirit will become their counselor and guide them into all truth!

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

You can say that while you proclaim the church you’re proclaiming part of Christ because He is the head of the church. (not to mention Protestant and Catholics see this in two different ways, visible and invisible)

You can say that when you proclaim the Scriptures that you are really proclaiming Christ because the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

Either of those are still leading to Christ and not proclaiming Christ Himself. No matter how you want to justify it. YES they both play a role in Christianity and should not be totally omitted but our divisions as believers are keeping us focused on the lesser things instead of Christ Himself.

I understand that this is a Catholic Answers site intended for supporting the Church and its reasons for doing the way it does things… but I still believe Jesus Christ should be proclaimed along with the church and not just assume everyone already knows the church leads to Jesus. You can’t assume that because you proclaim the branches, that the root in which the branches are nourished is receiving its full recognition and glory.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Okay, so you can quote Ephesians and Colossians, how do these verses prove anything you assert as truth? St. Paul is part of the Church hierarchy preaching to part of the laity of the Body of Christ.

You lost me with your posting. Are you saying that Christians cannot understand Scripture on their own? Do you read the Bible on your own?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Have you considered that this is because it is not the nature of Christ that you are here disputing, but the teachings of the Catholic Church?

I can receive teaching of the Catholic Church which is found in Sacred Scripture. I cannot receive teaching of the Catholic Church which cannot be found in Sacred Scripture.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I think the reason you wont open the thread is because you know it will inflame our Protestant brothers and sisters and not lead to constructive dialogue. Accusations such as that usually do exactly what I described. I wonder though why you thought it a good idea to create the first premise as a thread when I think you know that the second was disrespectful?

Do you do it on purpose 2nd Adam?

God bless

Please clarify your thoughts because I’m lost in what you are trying to share. I’m just pointing to Jesus Christ for our sufficient source to both Catholics and Protestants alike. As a Protestant, I know we can sometimes make the Bible an idol. It’s the same with Catholics in the same way that they can make the Catholic Church an idol too. The Bible and the Catholic Church are only as good if it points us to Jesus Christ, because our sufficiency in this life and the next is in Christ and not the Catholic Church nor the Bible.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Yes, he did. He was getting pressed against the wall on the other thread about the sufficiency of Christ, and started this thread to avoid answering questions over there.

He seems to forget that he is not here on CAF finding fault with the person and nature of Christ, but with the Catholic Church. Given that, most of the posts addressed to him focus on his misunderstandings of the Catholic Church, and the defence of her doctrine.

There is one Mormon here who approached him for dialogue, but he refuses (put him in a 'doghouse" becuase he has a different christology.

That’s your perspective which I will post is not true. Actually, your are one of the main reasons that I started this thread. You have continued to proclaim the Catholic Church to me without really mentioning Jesus Christ. It seems to me that you have a much greater affection for the Catholic Church than Jesus Christ Himself. Here is the thread that you are speaking about. I hope others will look at it to discern form themselves.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=400508