Prodigal's Isle

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Thing said:
I don’t know; don’t follow you. …
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My apologies, Thing. Let me rephrase the question:

Is the Great Commission only for the Apostles and their successors, or for all Christians?
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
My apologies, Thing. Let me rephrase the question:

Is the Great Commission only for the Apostles and their successors, or for all Christians?
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Here is your answer.

Jump back in time to the 12th century. Do you see protestants, protestant ‘churches’, protestant doctrines, protestant teachings?

Do you see Catholics, Catholic Churches, Catholic Doctrines, Catholic teachings?

Jump back to the Scriptures;
I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH… …AND THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL…

If the teachings in Christianity change radically after the reformation does that mean the gates of hell prevailed against the Church or that the gates of hell prevailed against a few ‘teachers’ within Christianity.

Everyone is asked or called to live the faith, to love and serve the Lord, the reason for Bishops and teachers is to communicate that faith to all consistently through the centuries.
 
Thing said:
Here is your answer.

Jump back in time to the 12th century. Do you see protestants, protestant ‘churches’, protestant doctrines, protestant teachings?

Do you see Catholics, Catholic Churches, Catholic Doctrines, Catholic teachings?

Jump back to the Scriptures;
I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH… …AND THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL…

If the teachings in Christianity change radically after the reformation does that mean the gates of hell prevailed against the Church or that the gates of hell prevailed against a few ‘teachers’ within Christianity.

Everyone is asked or called to live the faith, to love and serve the Lord, the reason for Bishops and teachers is to communicate that faith to all consistently through the centuries.
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Sorry, now i don’t follow you! Are you saying the Great Commission IS for all? A simple Yes or No will help this simple-minded Gilligan know.

🤷
 
Perhaps it will help if we consider each part of the Great Commission:

"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. (a)

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, (b)

baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (c)

and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. (d)

And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." (e)

(Matthew 28:18-20)

Of these five statements, which applies only to Christ? which applies to the Apostolic successors? and which applies to all Catholics? Tell me if my guess is correct, please:
a. Applies to Christ

b. Applies to all

c. Applies to the successors

d. Applies to all

e. Applies to all
Do you think i’m right on, or way off base?

🤷
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
Perhaps it will help if we consider each part of the Great Commission:

"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. (a)

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, (b)

baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (c)

and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. (d)

And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." (e)

(Matthew 28:18-20)

Of these five statements, which applies only to Christ? which applies to the Apostolic successors? and which applies to all Catholics? Tell me if my guess is correct, please:
a. Applies to Christ

b. Applies to all

c. Applies to the successors

d. Applies to all

e. Applies to all
Do you think i’m right on, or way off base?

🤷
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Let us also consider two lines before the above quoted;

**And the eleven disciples **went into Galilee, unto the mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And seeing him they adored: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

Jesus commissioned His disciples, the eleven remaining Apostles. As the commission was to ‘teach all nations’, those whom the Apostles chose to continue this commission had the commission applied to them also; as it was said that He would be with them [in their commission] not for just one year, nor just for 50 years, nor for 100 years, but He said He would be with them in this commission until the consumation of the world. That span of time necessitates *Apostolic successors *for this commission to come true, and that those successors to the Apostles have now His approval, or indeed have the same order or commission from Christ.

Who was Jesus talking to when He gave His commission?

Yes, He was speaking to the Apostles.

And yes, He expected they would have successors in this commission as He said He would be with them until the consumation of the world.
 
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Q.7.

**When Jesus said, **
"… go and make disciples
of all nations, baptizing them
in the name of the Father
and of the Son and of the
Holy Spirit, and teaching them
to obey everything I have
commanded you."
**was he commanding only the **
**Apostles ****and ****their successors, or **
**was He **speaking to you and me?

🤷
 
Thing said:
No.
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http://www.toptenreviews.com/i/rev/misc/articles/old_blog/blog_16_1.jpg

Let’s say there is a conversation between a good Catholic mother and her young son:

JOHNNY: I hate Pete. When I see him, I’m going to step on his toe and poke him right in the nose!

MOM: Johnny, you shouldn’t talk like that.

JOHNNY: Why mom? I wish he was dead!

MOM: Because Jesus said, “Love your enemies, and do good to those who hate you.”
Now in this conversation, isn’t the good Catholic mother teaching her son to obey what Jesus commanded?
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn.../home.comcast.net/~massbackwards/gilligan.jpg

Q.7.

**When Jesus said, **
"… go and make disciples
of all nations, baptizing them
in the name of the Father
and of the Son and of the
Holy Spirit, and teaching them
to obey everything I have
commanded you."
**was he **commanding only the
**Apostles ****and ****their successors, or **
**was He **speaking to you and me?

🤷
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We don’t need to guess, Soc.
And the **eleven disciples **went into Galilee, unto the mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And seeing him they adored: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth.

This commission looks like something special to the Apostles.

To the crowds and all the disciples He continually told them through parables how He wanted them to live the faith between each other.

But the commission was only spoken to the Apostles, to whom He told they were to meet Him at this place, where He proceeded to give them this commission.
 
Thing said:
We don’t need to guess, Soc.
And the **eleven disciples **went into Galilee, unto the mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And seeing him they adored: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth.

This commission looks like something special to the Apostles.

To the crowds and all the disciples He continually told them through parables how He wanted them to live the faith between each other.

But the commission was only spoken to the Apostles, to whom He told they were to meet Him at this place, where He proceeded to give them this commission.
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(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

So Jesus was not talking to Johnny’s mom?
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
Just sit right back and you’ll hear a tale,

A tale of a fateful trip
That started from this discussion board,
Aboard this tiny ship.

The mate was a mighty sailin’ man,
The Skipper brave and sure,
Five passengers set sail that day
For a three hour tour.
A three hour tour. sound of thunder: crack! ]

The weather started getting rough,
The tiny ship was tossed.
If not for the courage of the fearless crew,
The Protestant would be lost.
The Protestant would be lost.

The ship’s aground on the shore of this
Uncharted desert isle
With Prodigal, the Skipper too,
The Millionaire and his wife,
A movie star, ( and the rest ) the Professor and Mary Ann,
( All ) Here on Prodigal’s Isle!

😃

It seems i’ve become a castaway. Making frequent voyages here, i’ve all but shipwrecked my faith. My Protestant friends tell me i’m as stupid as Gilligan on that old TV show. I suppose that some here would say sinking a ship of false faith is a good thing.

I don’t want to bore anyone with the details, so i’ll get to the point: I’ve come to the conclusion that one reason i got on board the good ship Protestant was that i was doubting the authority of the Catholic Church. Most of the people i met on the same voyage were of the same opinion. Several of you here have caused me to doubt my doubt, which has left me stranded on this deserted island Faithlessness.

I’d like to be rescued, but the only way i can see to get off this God-forsaken place is to decide, once and for all, whether the Catholic Church is an authority i can trust to get me home safely. That’s my goal. The method i’d like to take is to avoid heated debate, have a little fun, and take my time to really think through what each of you have to say.
🙂
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Sherwood Schwartz was Catholic.

Each of the seven characters on Gilligan’s Island represented one of the seven deadly sins.

How zat?
[/QUOTE]
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
Let’s say there is a conversation between a good Catholic mother and her young son:

JOHNNY: I hate Pete. When I see him, I’m going to step on his toe and poke him right in the nose!

MOM: Johnny, you shouldn’t talk like that.

JOHNNY: Why mom? I wish he was dead!

MOM: Because Jesus said, “Love your enemies, and do good to those who hate you.”
Now in this conversation, isn’t the good Catholic mother teaching her son to obey what Jesus commanded?
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Yes indeed.

But your mother never finished elementary school, she has 16 other children, and a drunken husband. She does not have the time, energy nor the opportunity nor the knowledge necessary to ‘go and teach all the nations, baptising them…’

This was why Jesus chose 12 men, told them, to leave everything and follow Him. The men He chose could do that, they could even follow Him to their deaths all the time establishing His Church all over the world.

Everyone has their own job. Let the Shoemaker Stick to His Last. ok
 
mark_a said:
Sherwood Schwartz was Catholic.

Each of the seven characters on Gilligan’s Island represented one of the seven deadly sins.

How zat?
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Fascinating! Which is Gilligan’s sin?
And do you think it the deadliest?

🤷
 
Thing said:
Yes indeed.

But your mother never finished elementary school, she has 16 other children, and a drunken husband. She does not have the time, energy nor the opportunity nor the knowledge necessary to ‘go and teach all the nations, baptising them…’

This was why Jesus chose 12 men, told them, to leave everything and follow Him. The men He chose could do that, they could even follow Him to their deaths all the time establishing His Church all over the world.

Everyone has their own job. Let the Shoemaker Stick to His Last. ok
Click to expand...
By saying, “Yes indeed,” i take it you do agree that the Great Commission is for people like Johnny’s mom, as well as for priests, popes and bishops.

But regarding your objection that Johnny’s mom doesn’t have the capacity to go into all the world, let me ask you this: Which group is more likely to succeed in fulfilling Jesus’ command to go into all the world, teaching them to obey everything He commands?

  1. *]A few thousand popes, bishops and priests?
    *]Many, many millions of moms, dads and other Catholics?

    🤷
 
“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples [of your sons and daughters] … teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

(Matthew 28:18-20)

The thing is, Thing, that it seems to me that the Great Commission is Jesus’ great mission for all Catholic parents. Do you think i’m wrong?

 
Socrates4Jesus said:
Well, Mr. Howel, having lived in both worlds, it seems to me that the differences Protestants and Catholics have regarding this issue of who has the right to speak for Christ, is caused by a different understanding of the Great Commission. When Jesus said,
“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

(Matthew 28:18-20)
You and other good Catholics seem to see Jesus as speaking to the Apostles alone. When many Protestants hear these words, they often say with amazement, “He’s speaking to me!” They see the Great Commission not as applying only to a select few in positions of authority, but to everyone who follows Christ. Making disciples is not the sole responsibility of their pastor, but a solemn responsibility to reach out to one’s immediate family, relatives, coworkers, next-door neighbors, and even strangers.

So how do you see it, Mr. Howel? Is the Great Commission only for the great elite among us? Or is it for the common man, as well as the religiously privileged?

http://l.yimg.com/eb/ymv/us/img/hv/...te_first_season/_group_photos/jim_backus3.jpg
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Dear Soc,
Code: 
          fisrt of all let me say I appreciate your excursus on wisdom.  And I guess both of us appreciate the attitude of those who know they don't know and search.
As for your Great Question on the Great Commission a couple of premises seem useful.
  1. You are referring to a the category of “good catholics”, to which you mind I would belong. You certainly know they do not believe in their own personal interpretation of Scripture, Tradition and Magisterium as final word. A catholic knows (s)he doesn’t know enough to get the meanings of Revelation by her/himself in a sure way and anyhow better than her/his neighbour.
    So, I’m just going to try to communicate what I humbly understand of a capital pericope which is mentioned in so many magisterial documents
  2. You will note that my previous point on apostolic succession is unaffected by the Great Question: : all agree the « you « comprise the ones who were materially addressed… In other words there seem to be an agreement between catholicism and protestantisms that the Apostles were assisted in their teachings and decisions. This tells us that setting the principle of apostolic succession, as recorded by Clement, appears an assisted decision.
All this said, IMHO the “you” can be referred lato sensu to the Apostolic Church at large. I do not feel excluded from the promise, as far as I act and speak as a member of the Apostolic Church.

In order to clarify what I’m saying two points might be useful
  • Getting nearer to Catholicism, you are going to perceive with growing strength, that where Protestantisms often put a rigid alternative, Catholicism often does not. The form of thought, if I may say so, of catholicism is an “et …et” one. In many instances you can observe protestantisms simply reject one of the “et”, building an “aut …aut” form of thought. This way, if the “petra” is Peter’s faith, it has to mean it is not Peter too. This way if the Holy Supper has symbolic dimensions it has to mean there is no Real Presence, …… We know “catholic” means “according to the whole” 🙂 Those who, in the centuries, went out of the Church, oftwn would choose particular interpretations within this whole to the exclusion of any other. .
In our case I get that there is something specific for the apostles and their successors in the Great Commission. All of us have to communicate the faith… Which is what this group of catholics is doing at present with yourself. But since we know from Paul that within the Church there are “teachers”, as having an office ( and the Great Commission tells they will always be with us until the parusia), you have to know we are not certified teachers of the faith, so that insufficiencies and contradictions are simply to be expected. …

Personally, I guess we can see a hint to the presence of a special ministerial dimension within the Great Commission considering we know the resurrected Jesus appeared to five hundred people, but we don’t know what they were told or even whether there was a speech to them.
The Great Commission is addressed to the Eleven. And to all of them. Which can be considered as underlining an ecclesial dimension.

Many protestant brothers will tell us: “For me too the Great Commission is for the Church at large”… The essential difference being, that a lot of them believe in the Invisible Church. Being there no magisterium and no office, that means I personally, as having a (selfclaimed) membership of that Church of true believers, am entitled to speak boldly of the most difficult questions without feeling the need to check the orthodoxy of what I am understanding and preaching. Whereas Paul himself, who had been called personally by Christ, wanted to compare what he would teach with Peter, as recorded in an already mentioned pericope in Galatians.

Catholic parents do have to communicate the faith to their children. Of course, sice our families should be a domestic church2. But they also have to be aware they do not know all the things of the faith, and they should pass essentially what they’re pretty sure about, without indulging in speculative discourses which, upon check, could be different or even contrary to the apostolic teaching guarded by the Church.

Summary:

proposed answer to the Great Question. The Great Commission is not either for everybody individually in every aspect, or for a "privileged elite " ( privileged ?).only. It is for the Apostolic Church seen as an ordered whole and for each of her members in their roles.

Bless you
P7
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
By saying, “Yes indeed,” i take it you do agree that the Great Commission is for people like Johnny’s mom, as well as for priests, popes and bishops.

But regarding your objection that Johnny’s mom doesn’t have the capacity to go into all the world, let me ask you this: Which group is more likely to succeed in fulfilling Jesus’ command to go into all the world, teaching them to obey everything He commands?

  1. *]A few thousand popes, bishops and priests?
    *]Many, many millions of moms, dads and other Catholics?

    🤷
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  1. No I don’t agree, I thought I already said that.
    Yes she is teaching, but the ‘commission’ was given to the Apostles alone, (He told them alone that he would meet them alone and speak to them alone), and from them the commission would pass to the next batch of teachers. Their commission was not only to teach but also to administer the sacraments.
    [Your Mom has to do everything as it is btw and we should not expect her to have to save the world as well.]
    Everyone else [the laity and disciples inc.] were given their own ‘instructions’ at the sermon on the mount and with the golden rule, the parables of the Kingdom, etc. which were all given both to the disciples and to large crowds of followers, simultaneously.
    The Apostles also were given *their *own instructions with the commission to teach all the nations.
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples [of your sons and daughters] … teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

(Matthew 28:18-20)

The thing is, Thing, that it seems to me that the Great Commission is Jesus’ great mission for all Catholic parents. Do you think i’m wrong?

http://symonsez.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/wardfamily.jpg
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Did you baptise your children yourself, did you baptise your neighbours children, did your neighbours baptise your children. Gets complicated when their is no order, who is doing what. Most people just go to the priest to have their children baptised. They prefer that.
 
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