Progressive Philippines Catholicism

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ConstantineTG said:
But again, the Church isn’t Latin only
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But again, Latin is the only language that has been singled out by the Church in the West. Reread Vatican II and Veterum Sapientia. Is English or Filipino mentioned there? I rest my case.
 
ProVobis said:
But again, Latin is the only language that has been singled out by the Church in the West. Reread Vatican II and Veterum Sapientia. Is English or Filipino mentioned there? I rest my case.
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And again, the Roman Church is not the entire Church. The entire faith is carried faithfully in languages other than the Roman Church. Your argument seems to be on the narrow viewpoint that only the Roman Church can transmit the teachings moving forward. Even if the Roman Church and Latin were to disappear, we will still reveice a fully faithful Catholic teaching from another particular Church who uses another language. Our faith is not incapsulated in Latin.
 
ConstantineTG said:
And again, the Roman Church is not the entire Church. The entire faith is carried faithfully in languages other than the Roman Church. Your argument seems to be on the narrow viewpoint that only the Roman Church can transmit the teachings moving forward. Even if the Roman Church and Latin were to disappear, we will still reveice a fully faithful Catholic teaching from another particular Church who uses another language. Our faith is not incapsulated in Latin.
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Again, a straw man. You are exaggerating your opponent’s argument, then ‘refuting’ it.

There are very good reasons to retain Latin as the sacred language of the Roman Catholic Church. The arguments pro-vernacular are weak, by comparison.

The liturgical dilletantes have had their day in the sun. Time to give the Mass that helped convert nations a try.
 
ConstantineTG said:
Even if the Roman Church and Latin were to disappear, we will still reveice a fully faithful Catholic teaching from another particular Church who uses another language. Our faith is not incapsulated in Latin.
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Strange argument. I guess you could say the same about the Eastern Church. What if both the Eastern and Western Churches disappeared?
 
ConstantineTG said:
Even if the Roman Church and Latin were to disappear, we will still reveice a fully faithful Catholic teaching from another particular Church who uses another language. Our faith is not incapsulated in Latin.
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Strange argument considering that Church holds its documents in Latin. But I guess you could say the same about the Eastern Church. What if both the Eastern and Western Churches disappeared? I think you’ve just lost your Apostolic Succession.
 
Layman said:
Again, a straw man. You are exaggerating your opponent’s argument, then ‘refuting’ it.

There are very good reasons to retain Latin as the sacred language of the Roman Catholic Church. The arguments pro-vernacular are weak, by comparison.

The liturgical dilletantes have had their day in the sun. Time to give the Mass that helped convert nations a try.
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Just because you refuse to accept the reasons doesn’t mean their week. The fact that the entire Church is composed of different liturgical languages is already a great argument against those who claim that Latin is the only way to faithfully transmit the faith. Take note that I’m not against Latin. But at the same time I don’t want to make Latin what it is not in our Church.

Wait a minute, why did the other thread’s topic get into this thread? GO PHILIPPINES! 😃
 
ConstantineTG said:
Even if the Roman Church and Latin were to disappear, we will still reveice a fully faithful Catholic teaching from another particular Church who uses another language. Our faith is not incapsulated in Latin.
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Strange argument considering that Church holds its documents, council minutes, and development of ideas in Latin. But I guess you could say the same about the Eastern Church. What if both the Eastern and Western Churches disappeared? I think you’ve just lost your Apostolic Succession.
 
ProVobis said:
Strange argument. I guess you could say the same about the Eastern Church. What if both the Eastern and Western Churches disappeared? I think you’ve just lost your Apostolic Succession.
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My point only is that the faith is not dependent on one language. I think the arguments of the other thread spilled here because of the refusal of some groups in the Philippines to use Latin in the OF. FYI, there was never Latin in the OF in the Philippines since I was born in the 70s. In fact, I never knew that there was still a Latin Mass outside of Rome until the past couple of years. Most people my age have the same perception. And yet this was never a detriment to the faithful. People are still very devout. Where else in the world do people wake up at 4am to attend Mass for 9 consecutive days before Christmas? And mind you the churches are packed. If mass starts at 4:30am and you get there 4:20am, you’ll probably be standing outside in the cold (if you’re North American, then no big deal. Cold in a tropical country is just right for most people here). But not to worry, most parishes are equiped with speakers outside the church building because its common occurence for parishes to be overflowing with people.
 
ConstantineTG said:
But at the same time I don’t want to make Latin what it is not in our Church.
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When you find someone who could do St. Jerome’s great work in consolidating the old Greek, old Hebrew, and old Aramaic Scriptures into a language other than Latin, please let us know.
 
ProVobis said:
When you find someone who could do St. Jerome’s great work in consolidating the Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic Scriptures into a language other than Latin, please let us know.
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To be honest with you, even then I doubt you will accept him.
 
ConstantineTG said:
Just because you refuse to accept the reasons doesn’t mean their week.
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Again, bad reasoning. My refusal to accept the reasons has no bearing on whether they’re good or bad for the Church.

40 years of ‘The People’s Mass’ had not revived our worship. It has led to scandal and banality. This chap expresses my fears well, I think. Just what does ‘enculturation’ mean except the locals adding what they like to the Mass?
 
Layman said:
Again, bad reasoning. My refusal to accept the reasons has no bearing on whether they’re good or bad for the Church.
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What the Church is right now supports my argument. Thats the proof of strength of my argument. Our faith is never dependent on one language. Its dependent on Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium.
Layman said:
40 years of ‘The People’s Mass’ had not revived our worship. It has led to scandal and banality. This chap expresses my fears well, I think. Just what does ‘enculturation’ mean except the locals adding what they like to the Mass?
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So we’re talking people’s opinons as facts now? I have access to already dozens of blogs and other Filipino Catholic groups that would show how alive and well Catholicism is in the country. But again, opinions are opinions. Fact is we have packed churches, feasts are celebrated with tens or hundreds of thousands of people, sometimes even million. The Philippines boasts of the largest attendance of the World Youth Day, and second place isn’t even close. And most of it is because of locals. Granted that Protestanism is making strides in the mostly-Catholic country, they’re picking off the lukewarm Catholics. Those who are devout then are devout today.
 
Pope Benedict XVI has said he’d prefer a smaller, faithful Church than a larger one full of errors.
 
Ockham said:
Pope Benedict XVI has said he’d prefer a smaller, faithful Church than a larger one full of errors.
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I believe Jesus said the harvest is plenty and the workers are few. We need more workers so the harvest is plentiful. Jesus never intended for a small Church. He wants to save all.
 
ConstantineTG said:
I believe Jesus said the harvest is plenty and the workers are few. We need more workers so the harvest is plentiful. Jesus never intended for a small Church. He wants to save all.
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Oh please. I’m not going to get into a Scripture shootout with you choy, but do the phrases, “eye of a needle” and “many are called, few chosen” ring any bells?
 
Ockham said:
Oh please. I’m not going to get into a Scripture shootout with you choy, but do the phrases, “eye of a needle” and “many are called, few chosen” ring any bells?
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I have noticed the similarity and pattern myself.
 
Thread is beginning to turn into a discussion about each other. Please focus on the subject.

Thanks

Thomas Casey
Moderator
 
Traditionalists like to feel a sense of awe.

Liberals like to feel a sense of community.

One group argues against the other because they don’t like how the other group feels.

Some like Latin because of the sense of awe it inspires - it’s just so otherworldly, even heavenly, to sit there while not understanding a thing that is being said. It’s the feeling that counts, just like with the liberals. If Traditionalists and Liberals realized how close they really are to each other in their intentions, maybe they can get along a lot better.

Brother ConstantineTG, you are making a lot of sense.👍

Blessings,
Marduk

P.S. Negros Occidental
 
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