Progressive Philippines Catholicism

[Lost_Wanderer]

The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ two thousand years ago. It is greater than any particular country or culture. It isn’t up to the Church to adapt to a group of people - quite the opposite.

Yet Jesus didn’t speak in Latin when He went to preach to the masses. He spoke Aramaic did he not? Did he not also speak in unorthodox parables?

 

[Ockham]

Do you think the Church is forty years old? How did all those missionaries convert people in every nation on the planet for centuries? There is nothing special about the Philippines that the Church hasn’t overcome before. However, if you insist upon customization then perhaps leaving the Church is an option. Keep in mind there is no salvation outside the Church though.

 

[malphono]

And now you want to throw Latin into the mess?

Wasn’t Latin “in the mess” for some 300 years?

You want to make the Church here look more elitist?

Was the Church considered “elitist” at the time? If so, it would seem strange that such a majority of the population was ever baptized.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Do you think the Church is forty years old? How did all those missionaries convert people in every nation on the planet for centuries? There is nothing special about the Philippines that the Church hasn’t overcome before. However, if you insist upon customization then perhaps leaving the Church is an option. Keep in mind there is no salvation outside the Church though.

Thanks for missing my point about Jesus and Latin and instead try to make us feel like heretics. Oh and btw? You might want to take a second look as to how the Church converted the people of Asia.

Wasn’t Latin “in the mess” for some 300 years?

Yeah and looked what that produced. Anti-clerical national heroes. Rebel leaders who murdered and mocked priests. Do I have to salvage my Philippine history textbook to show you how much a grand majority of the clergy was despised here during that period?

Was the Church considered “elitist” at the time? If so, it would seem strange that such a majority of the population was ever baptized.

Pretty much actually. Ever read the famous books of Jose Rizal? Both Noli Me Tangere and El Filibusterismo portray a grand majority of priests as antagonists living in luxury.

 

[Ockham]

Oh, that was a serious point? Ok, no, Jesus didn’t speak Latin and the Last Supper didn’t look like at TLM. I’ll give you that. In fact, the Bible and Catechism weren’t even around at the time so it’s a wonder how the Church even got off the ground.

Perhaps the Philippines isn’t compatible with the Catholic Church after all. That’s too bad.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Perhaps the Philippines isn’t compatible with the Catholic Church after all. That’s too bad.

Oh its pretty compatible. Just not compatible with your image of the Church as some sort of Euro-centric Traditionalist paradise.

 

[ProVobis]

That pales though to how the ones in poverty see us. To them, being a fluent English speaker is a bloody status symbol (and sometimes an arrogant one at that)! I can’t count how many times I’ve seen in our stupid telenovelas (soap operas) were the rich families are portrayed to be fluent in English or mixing English words and phrases with a socialite flair, ugh…

And now you want to throw Latin into the mess? You want to make the Church here look more elitist?

LW, I hear you. But when I was in high school back in the 60’s, my homeroom teacher would keep telling us that Latin, though probably not in great demand, nevertheless was a stepping stone towards a greater demand. I learned later how right he was!

 

[ProVobis]

Yet Jesus didn’t speak in Latin when He went to preach to the masses. He spoke Aramaic did he not? Did he not also speak in unorthodox parables?

The inscription above Christ’s head on the cross was written in Latin, Greek, and Hebrew. Let’s presume He understood all three and not denigrate any one of those sacred languages.

 

[malphono]

Yeah and looked what that produced. Anti-clerical national heroes. Rebel leaders who murdered and mocked priests. Do I have to salvage my Philippine history textbook to show you how much a grand majority of the clergy was despised here during that period?

Pretty much actually. Ever read the famous books of Jose Rizal? Both Noli Me Tangere and El Filibusterismo portray a grand majority of priests as antagonists living in luxury.

And this all because Mass was offered in Latin before 1965? Huh?

It all may have resulted from heavy-handed Spanish imperialism, but I have a problem believing that it was due to Mass offered in Latin. As the whale said to Jonah, I ain’t aswallowin’ that.

 

[Ockham]

Oh its pretty compatible. Just not compatible with your image of the Church as some sort of Euro-centric Traditionalist paradise.

I wonder if Filipinos have a separate area in Paradise.

 

[ProVobis]

there is an increasing pressure from anti-Catholic groups not only to destroy the reputation of the Church, but to lure all the members out and into their groups. Should we just do nothing and let them? At the cost of their chance to salvation?

So what makes them different than other countries?

 

[ConstantineTG]

Oh, that was a serious point? Ok, no, Jesus didn’t speak Latin and the Last Supper didn’t look like at TLM. I’ll give you that. In fact, the Bible and Catechism weren’t even around at the time so it’s a wonder how the Church even got off the ground.

Perhaps the Philippines isn’t compatible with the Catholic Church after all. That’s too bad.

I think this conclusion shows lack of understanding of Philippine culture, which is what I have been asking for from the beginning of this thread. Filipinos are very devout. How can Catholicism cannot be compatible with Filipinos. Here are examples:

• Simbang Gabi - Filipinos wake up at 4am from December 16-24 for a 9-day novena Mass in anticipation of Christmas. Churches are packed even at that early hour of the morning. Standing room only doesn’t even justify the size of the crowd
• Feasts and processions - every parish feast day (feast day of the Patron Saint) is a grand celebration. Aside from a Mass usually precided by the Bishop of the diocese, there is a procession of the statue of the saint around the entire town with literally thousands of people lining the streets. The celebration is both solemn (for prayers) and festive (partying)
• Salubong - another early morning celebration of Easter. A statue of the Virgin Mary goes on a separate procession route than the statue of the Rissen Christ. They eventually meet in front of the church where usually a kid dressed as an angel lifts the black veil from the Virgin Mary. After which people head inside the chuch for early morning Easter Mass.
• Flores de Mayo - Flowers of May. Dedicated to the Blessed Virgin Mary. There is also the traditional Santacruzan which is a celebration of the Virgin Mary. The practice originated right after the declaration of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception
• Sinulog - a feast of the Sto. Nino (Child Jesus) and is celebrated by a procession that commemorates the conversion of the natives
• All Saints Day and All Souls Day - cemeteries are packed (think of a park during Canada Day or July 4) where people come together to remember those who passed away and pray for them. Most will stay for 3 days in the cemetery for prayers and family get-togethers.
• Pilgrimage - there are many local pilgrimage sites where people travel hours just to attend Mass, light candels and offer prayers and petitions

Those are to name a few. There is not a more Catholic country in the world if you ask me.

 

[ConstantineTG]

So what makes them different than other countries?

The fact that the country is 80% Catholic (it was higher in the past). Its different when you’re fighting an uphil battle, like here in North America where most Christians are Protestants. Whats alarming in the Philippines is that people are mostly Catholic, but Catholicism is losing ground. So the difference is fighting uphil vs. falling of a ledge.

 

[ConstantineTG]

And now you want to throw Latin into the mess? You want to make the Church here look more elitist?

I think this is another facet of Philippine society that most outsiders will not understand. How being rich is mostly looked down by a society thats mostly poor. And you don’t have to be Bill Gates rich, just even the perception of elitism is already a great big negativity. And the concept of “pakikisama” (fellowship) is important to the culture as well.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Was the Church considered “elitist” at the time? If so, it would seem strange that such a majority of the population was ever baptized.

The short answer is yes, the Church was viewed as elitist. Most of the rich in the 333 year history of Spain in the Philippines are the Spanish. And the Church was run by Spanish. The bishop was Spanish, the priests were Spanish. There is a backlash against the Spanish and fair or not, it also reflects on the clergy who are Spanish. Also, the Churches in that era were huge. So again its a case of haves and have nots. While most people live in huts, the priests live in large stone buildings. And the bottom line is they’re Spanish.

To top it all off, the fight for independence was spearheaded by Freemasons. Jose Rizal wrote two anti-Spanish novels that incited the fight for freedom. But Rizal didn’t merely write negative things about the Spanish government, he made Spanish friars look like they are sex-crazed and wealth-horders. Padre Damaso was the Darth Vader type of Villain of Rizal’s novels. Worst part is that Rizal is our National Hero, he’s seen as the equivalent of what George Washington is to America. Although Rizal never really fought in the revolution, but it was Andres Bonifacio who did. Bonifacio is also a freemason.

 

[mardukm]

Dear brothers ProVobis and ConstantineTG,

Where did that come from? We said nothing about the EF. But as long as you brought it up,

ConstantineTG:

Is this a typo? The EF is not being translated.

Here is the text of statement from the Archdiocese of Manila:

While we respect the option to use Latin and celebrate the Tridentine liturgy, we uphold the use of the vernacular in our parishes and communities and recommend translations that faithfully reflect both the spiritual doctrine of the texts and the linguistic patterns of our vernacular languages.

Isn’t the Trindentine liturgy the EF?

I have been to the Philippines several times (Bacolod City), and I’ve attended Mass OF in the vernacular (not Tagalog, but Visayan). So I can’t imagine that this statement from the Archdiocese refers to the OF Mass, because the OF Mass is ALREADY celeberated in the vernacular.

Sorry, but the EF stays in Latin:

youtube.com/watch?v=mqnjgg1vNgU

I don’t think you can propose a convincing argument that the EF can only be in Latin - at least not to me. Use of a vernacular liturgy is imbedded irrevocably in the Sacred Tradition of the Church, for it is the means by which we bring the life of Christ to the nations.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[ProVobis]

I don’t think you can propose a convincing argument that the EF can only be in Latin - at least not to me. Use of a vernacular liturgy is imbedded irrevocably in the Sacred Tradition of the Church, for it is the means by which we bring the life of Christ to the nations.

So you know better than Cardinal Arinze?

Where is your basis for all this? Why should I drive to a vernacular EF an hour away when I have a vernacular OF just down the street from me? The Mass is the Mass, after all.

 

[ProVobis]

Here is the text of statement from the Archdiocese of Manila:

While we respect the option to use Latin and celebrate the Tridentine liturgy, we uphold the use of the vernacular in our parishes and communities and recommend translations that faithfully reflect both the spiritual doctrine of the texts and the linguistic patterns of our vernacular languages.

Isn’t the Trindentine liturgy the EF?

I have been to the Philippines several times (Bacolod City), and I’ve attended Mass OF in the vernacular (not Tagalog, but Visayan). So I can’t imagine that this statement from the Archdiocese refers to the OF Mass, because the OF Mass is ALREADY celeberated in the vernacular.

The OF can be in Latin. It appears that the archdiocese doesn’t want any part of that either. Just my opinion. I don’t know how many vernaculars you have in your country. Could be another one. We have well over 20 in the Archdiocese of Chicago and I’m sure that there are requests for more.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Dear brothers ProVobis and ConstantineTG,

Here is the text of statement from the Archdiocese of Manila:

While we respect the option to use Latin and celebrate the Tridentine liturgy, we uphold the use of the vernacular in our parishes and communities and recommend translations that faithfully reflect both the spiritual doctrine of the texts and the linguistic patterns of our vernacular languages.

Isn’t the Trindentine liturgy the EF?

Now that you put it that way, it does sound confusing. But I think what they’re implying is while they respect the Tridentine Mass, they’d rather have the Mass in the vernacular, which is certainly in the OF

I have been to the Philippines several times (Bacolod City), and I’ve attended Mass OF in the vernacular (not Tagalog, but Visayan). So I can’t imagine that this statement from the Archdiocese refers to the OF Mass, because the OF Mass is ALREADY celeberated in the vernacular.

Yes, Mass has been celebrated in the vernacular (Filipino/Tagalog, English, and local dialects) for as long as I have lived (30+ years). I most certainly am sure that what they’re implying is they want to stick to the vernacular in the OF. I haven’t heard of any movement to translate the EF when I was still there, nor even today that I am part of an online community of Filipino Catholics.

I don’t think you can propose a convincing argument that the EF can only be in Latin - at least not to me. Use of a vernacular liturgy is imbedded irrevocably in the Sacred Tradition of the Church, for it is the means by which we bring the life of Christ to the nations.

Blessings,
Marduk

Yes, fact is there’s nothing in the Church that would directly prevent translating the EF into another language. But I don’t think the Church is interested in that and a proposed translation will probably not get recognitio from the Holy See.

 

[ConstantineTG]

The OF can be in Latin. It appears that the archdiocese doesn’t want any part of that either. Just my opinion. I don’t know how many vernaculars you have in your country. Could be another one. We have well over 20 in the Archdiocese of Chicago and I’m sure that there are requests for more.

Aside from Filipino/Tagalog, the major dialects would be ilokano, ilonggo, Cebuano/Visaya, Kapampangan, and Bicolano, I expect that Mass would be said in those dialects. It should be a dozen or so. The only foreign language would be English, but you can’t really consider it foreign as it is an official language of the country.