Progressive Philippines Catholicism

[ProVobis]

I…don’t know! I’ve never heard that! I’ve googled it real quick and found an interesting blog article (for what that’s worth).

THere’s more details here: salaswildthoughts.blogspot.com/2007/03/filipino-vs-tagalog.html

I don’t know how good this is but here’s another take:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tagalog_language

 

[ConstantineTG]

I don’t know how good this is but here’s another take:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tagalog_language

Sounds about right. 60 million out of the 90 million speak the language. I know there’s some resistance in the south because its not their dialect doesn’t play a major role in the national language. But of course the dialect of the captial city will be the one declared as the major component of the national language. Also, education in the local language is carried in Filipino and not the local dialects.

By the way, in areas where there is a large concentration of Filipino Catholics in most parts of the world, there will be a Mass in Filipino. I know there’s one in Hong Kong. I’m pretty sure around California there is, and probably in Ontario, Canada. I’m surprised here in BC there isn’t one regular Filipino Mass, despite there being Filipino priests and large numbers of Filipino Catholics. There are many parishes with Chinese (Mandarin and Cantonese) Masses.

 

[ConstantineTG]

It depends on which history books you read, and how you read them. Spain wanted to conquer the philippines for land and resources. The church wanted to christianize the philippines to save their souls. I can be argued that one was bad, one was good. Spain sent the conquistadors, the church sent the missionaries. It’s important to seperate the two, even if they came on the same boats.

Actually, the Spanish Inquisition is one of the sad parts of the history of our Church. While the Church had noble goals to spread the faith, its Spain itself which abused the Church’s desire and used it for their own political goal.

In a way I am glad for the Spanish Inquisition. Islam was spreading from the south through Sabah, Malaysia and into southern parts of Mindanao and its nearby islands. Magellan landed in Cebu which was an island directly north of Mindanao. Miguel Lopez de Legaspi came back to the same spot to conquer the islands. It was not the idea of Rome to Christianize the Philippines, but it is of course part of the mandate by Jesus Christ to preach Christianity to all nations. But Spain obviously used this mandate to mask their own desire to expand their empire. Sadly, if you look at the history its really hard to separate the good of the Church from the bad of the Spanish Empire. Religion was indeed a tool used by Spain to subjugate the natives, even though that was never the intention of the Church. Case in fact, native Filipinos were never educated by the Spanish. The Spanish has a very racist and elitist society in their colonies. Your rank in society is determined by how pure-blooded Spanish you are and your access to education is determined by your wealth. They also discriminated against the Chinese immigrants in the Philippines during that time because they were pagans.

I want to learn more about Latin America and why they’ve embrased some Spanish culture whilst Filipinos detest a lot about the Spanish. We’ve even gotten rid of speaking Spanish so quickly most people don’t realize we were a colony for 333 years.

 

[Layman]

I don’t think the Mass should be the focus of nationalist aspirations. Assert them elsewhere. Leave the Mass alone. Already we see local and national variations in the O.F. What a disaster for the unity of the Roman Catholic Church!

Were the Spanish harsh on the Filipinos? Then we must change the Mass!

There’ll always be someone to give you exactly what you want in a religion. Whether it’ll get you into Heaven is another thing. Given the stakes, I’d stick with the tried-and-tested.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I don’t think the Mass should be the focus of nationalist aspirations. Assert them elsewhere. Leave the Mass alone. Already we see local and national variations in the O.F. What a disaster for the unity of the Roman Catholic Church!

Were the Spanish harsh on the Filipinos? Then we must change the Mass!

There’ll always be someone to give you exactly what you want in a religion. Whether it’ll get you into Heaven is another thing. Given the stakes, I’d stick with the tried-and-tested.

I think its an overexaggeration to say that the Mass is being changed. Its not. There are certain elements in Mass that allow for inculturization that is allowed by the Vatican. They want to take advantage of that. But its still the same Mass.

 

[ProVobis]

I think its an overexaggeration to say that the Mass is being changed. Its not.

I don’t think anyone here has suggested that the Mass (or its substance) has changed. However, the perception of the Mass surely has and all this progressive thinking isn’t helping any.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I don’t think anyone here has suggested that the Mass (or its substance) has changed. However, the perception of the Mass surely has and all this progressive thinking isn’t helping any.

Wait, how sure are you that the Liturgy in the Philippines today isn’t progressive enough to begin with? Note that they are asking, among other things, is a return to faithfulness to doctrine.

 

[Layman]

. We are of the persuasion that liturgical renewal, as envisioned by the Constitution on Liturgy of Vatican II, entails liturgical inculturation and that our rich cultural heritage has much to offer to make the Roman liturgy truly Filipino".

A beautiful sentence, replete with phrases to put any traditionalist on their guard. “We are of the persuasion” is almost enough for me. A great pity the Mass has become a tinker-toy for mediocre minds.

 

[malphono]

A beautiful sentence, replete with phrases to put any traditionalist on their guard. “We are of the persuasion” is almost enough for me. A great pity the Mass has become a tinker-toy for mediocre minds.

And even liturgical purists, but never mind that.

One has to consider the source of that sentence. One must also consider the m.o. behind it which, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, seems to me to be self-perpetuation.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I’m saddened that a lot of judgment has already been passed on my culture when I don’t think anyone here even understands what the culture is all about and why these changes are even being asked for. The statements have been taken out of context and the entire people have been made to look like modernist heretics.

 

[malphono]

Red highlighting added

Sounds to me that the first phrase in the following item (“While we respect the option to use Latin and celebrate the Tridentine liturgy”) was included because they had no choice but to do so. The rest of the item is pretty clear: they want no Latin in the OF. Taken to the quick, that idea could have come from an equivalent meeting in the US or anywhere else for that matter.

1. The Use of the Vernacular. While we respect the option to use Latin and celebrate the Tridentine liturgy, we uphold the use of the vernacular in our parishes and communities and recommend translations that faithfully reflect both the spiritual doctrine of the texts and the linguistic patterns of our vernacular languages.

 

[Layman]

I’m saddened that a lot of judgment has already been passed on my culture when I don’t think anyone here even understands what the culture is all about and why these changes are even being asked for. The statements have been taken out of context and the entire people have been made to look like modernist heretics.

Objecting to a statement is not passing judgement on a culture. This page does.

What we’d like is a Mass free from insipid local experimentation by ‘experts’ who think felt banners, droning, banal hymns and kiddies pictures in the sanctuary are nicely evangelical.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Objecting to a statement is not passing judgement on a culture. This page does.

What we’d like is a Mass free from insipid local experimentation by ‘experts’ who think felt banners, droning, banal hymns and kiddies pictures in the sanctuary are nicely evangelical.

The thing is, how many of you making comments are even aware of the state of the Church in the Philippines? Have the Liturgies been mostly orthodox and traditional in the past up until this point?

 

[Ockham]

Because we all know what comments like “no Latin OF” means in these forums. In these forums, the words “no Latin” or “anti-Latin” equates to evil.

It does? That’s news to me so I guess not everyone in this forum thinks that way. Why do you?

Liturgy has always adopted to culture in the past. 6 rites and 22 sui juris Churches more than proves that. If the Church was meant to be one culture, we wouldn’t have that variety from the beginning.

Wrong. It is we you should adopt to Christ’s Church.

Except for colonial rule by the Spanish, Filipinos have absolutely no connection to any Latin culture. We even had our own script/alphabet before the Spanish eradicated it.

This isn’t about Latin culture it is about the Church Jesus Christ established.

If you read the history of the Philippines, it is exactly that. The Philippines was conquered during the Spanish Inquisition. The country was conquered to be Christianized by Spain. It was both a Religious and Political move by Spain. If all the missionaries wanted to do was spread Christianity, they would have sent religious men and women. Miguel Lopez de Legaspi was not a missionary, he was a conquistador.

Every country has a unique history - read English sometime. It is not up to the Church to conform to unique cultures it is up to the individual to submit to the will of God.

 

[challam2010]

Objecting to a statement is not passing judgement on a culture. This page does.

What we’d like is a Mass free from insipid local experimentation by ‘experts’ who think felt banners, droning, banal hymns and kiddies pictures in the sanctuary are nicely evangelical.

You obviously have had no contact with the Filipino culture or Filipino spirituality.

The parish I’m supposed to attend is about 90% Filipino and I have NEVER seen a more devout group of people in my life. There is nothing remotely “progressive” about this parish or its community – it is VERY traditional, as are the personal devotions practised by many people.

The parish supports a large grammar school, and the community just built a huge church twice the size of the former because of growth in numbers and attendance. This community embraces all of the American culture parish activities that we are used to, plus they bring their own customs OUTSIDE OF THE LITURGY to enjoy as a community. Being Catholic appears to be very important in their families and culture as a whole, based on the size of their families, the attendance and activities of teens on their own, and the number of men who accompany their families.

(I don’t attend this church regularly only because I have a hard time understanding the two Filipino priests’ accents, and because they use all-volunteer, amateur musicians for all the liturgies.)

I can’t speak to the culture in the Philippines as I haven’t experienced it directly, but a huge percentage of California’s medical and service workers are recent immigrants and children of immigrants, and these are they who are so devout. I think the implication can safely be they are so devout because of their very religious backgrounds, fostered by their close families.

If “inculturation” is approved by the Vatican – if the vernacular of the country is approved by the Vatican – why on earth should you worry about a document that represents people’s efforts to worship God and who live a half a world away? It sounds to me that you are looking for a reason to complain about something that has no cause or basis for worry.

 

[ConstantineTG]

You obviously have had no contact with the Filipino culture or Filipino spirituality.

The parish I’m supposed to attend is about 90% Filipino and I have NEVER seen a more devout group of people in my life. There is nothing remotely “progressive” about this parish or its community – it is VERY traditional, as are the personal devotions practised by many people.

The parish supports a large grammar school, and the community just built a huge church twice the size of the former because of growth in numbers and attendance. This community embraces all of the American culture parish activities that we are used to, plus they bring their own customs OUTSIDE OF THE LITURGY to enjoy as a community. Being Catholic appears to be very important in their families and culture as a whole, based on the size of their families, the attendance and activities of teens on their own, and the number of men who accompany their families.

(I don’t attend this church regularly only because I have a hard time understanding the two Filipino priests’ accents, and because they use all-volunteer, amateur musicians for all the liturgies.)

I can’t speak to the culture in the Philippines as I haven’t experienced it directly, but a huge percentage of California’s medical and service workers are recent immigrants and children of immigrants, and these are they who are so devout. I think the implication can safely be they are so devout because of their very religious backgrounds, fostered by their close families.

If “inculturation” is approved by the Vatican – if the vernacular of the country is approved by the Vatican – why on earth should you worry about a document that represents people’s efforts to worship God and who live a half a world away? It sounds to me that you are looking for a reason to complain about something that has no cause or basis for worry.

MARAMING SALAMAT PO! (Thank you very much)

 

[ConstantineTG]

It does? That’s news to me so I guess not everyone in this forum thinks that way. Why do you?

It doesn’t take long to get a feel of what the keywords are that would solicit negative reaction in this forum. “No Latin” ranks as high as “altar girls” and “CITH”.

Wrong. It is we you should adopt to Christ’s Church.[/qutoe]

Then explain why the entire Catholic Church is the way it is? Christ’s Church isn’t built on language, its built on faith. We adopt to the faith, not the language.
Ockham;7086961:

This isn’t about Latin culture it is about the Church Jesus Christ established.

Right. So it shouldn’t matter if there’s Latin or not in Liturgy.

Every country has a unique history - read English sometime. It is not up to the Church to conform to unique cultures it is up to the individual to submit to the will of God.

The apostles conformed to culture. Why is it then do we kneel in Mass when Eastern Catholics don’t (on Sundays)? Its a cultural thing.

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Constantine,

I want to learn more about Latin America and why they’ve embrased some Spanish culture whilst Filipinos detest a lot about the Spanish. We’ve even gotten rid of speaking Spanish so quickly most people don’t realize we were a colony for 333 years.

My wife is from Bacolod, so I’ve learned quite a bit of Ilongo. There are towns in Negros that still speak Kinachila’ (Castillan) as the everyday language. From what I can tell, Ilongo itself uses more Spanish words than Tagalog.

I sympathize with what you are saying for the most part (it is a rare occasion that I do not agree with brother Malphono, but I must take my wife’s side or I will be in trouble ). I am a bit reticent about the female altar servers though.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[CradleCath]

Somehow I get the feeling that this “statement” (perhaps “manifesto” is more apropos) is the product of a bunch of people (i.e. the so-called “liturgists”) whose primary interest lies in self-preservation. It’s like any self-perpetuating agency or group: once they get their teeth into someone or something, they never let go.** Whether the person or thing actually needs them is not one of their considerations. They need the person or thing to make themselves look productive.**

 

[ConstantineTG]

Dear brother Constantine,

My wife is from Bacolod, so I’ve learned quite a bit of Ilongo. There are towns in Negros that still speak Kinachila’ (Castillan) as the everyday language. From what I can tell, Ilongo itself uses more Spanish words than Tagalog.

I sympathize with what you are saying for the most part (it is a rare occasion that I do not agree with brother Malphono, but I must take my wife’s side or I will be in trouble ). I am a bit reticent about the female altar servers though.

Blessings,
Marduk

Right. I don’t think that will happen. Or should I say I’m hopeful that will not happen. We’re boasting of 50 million Catholics in the country, there’s no excuse to say there aren’t enough boys or men who are active in the Church. Masses are always full, standing-only. Granted that the youth seem less and less interested in serving, in most Masses I see some of the men-only EMHCs double as altar servers.

Women already serve as readers and in the choir. That should suffice.

Btw, which Negros? There is Oriental and Occidental. I know one speaks the dialect you speak of while the other speaks Cebuano or Visaya. But I keep forgetting which is which.

Yes, Tagalog is hardly spoken in the Visayas Islands which Negros is part of. But they are educated in Tagalog and if a tourist from Luzon would go down south, they would find most people can speak some Tagalog to a degree. The most interesting is that Cebuanos are very proud and wouldn’t accept Tagalog and Filipino. The common language with them is in fact English.