Progressive Philippines Catholicism

[mardukm]

Dear brother ConstantineTG,

Now that you put it that way, it does sound confusing. But I think what they’re implying is while they respect the Tridentine Mass, they’d rather have the Mass in the vernacular, which is certainly in the OF

Yes, Mass has been celebrated in the vernacular (Filipino/Tagalog, English, and local dialects) for as long as I have lived (30+ years). I most certainly am sure that what they’re implying is they want to stick to the vernacular in the OF.

I know you know that the Filipino mind does not always translate perfectly into English. A reading of Filipino newspapers in English at my house from my wife proves that.

While we respect the option to use Latin and celebrate the Tridentine liturgy, we uphold the use of the vernacular in our parishes and communities and recommend translations that faithfully reflect both the spiritual doctrine of the texts and the linguistic patterns of our vernacular languages.
I think what the text is actually saying is “While we repect the option to use Latin while celebrating the Tridentine Liturgy, we uphold the use of vernacular and recommend translations…”

Of course, this makes it seem like the EF is already in regular use, not rather as an option. So to reflect both the idea that the focus of the statement is the use of Latin in the EF, and that the EF is a matter of choice, the statement comes to us as we now have it – confusing.

Still, I think the key is the phrase “we recommend translations.” The statement is obviously talking about a text that has not previously been translated to Filipino. That can only refer to the EF that was already referred to earlier in the statement.

I haven’t heard of any movement to translate the EF when I was still there, nor even today that I am part of an online community of Filipino Catholics.

Perhaps that is because people are generally satisfied with the OF. But what I think the statement is saying is “IF we use the EF, because you have given us greater freedom to use it, we would recommend that it be translated in the vernacular.”

Yes, fact is there’s nothing in the Church that would directly prevent translating the EF into another language. But I don’t think the Church is interested in that and a proposed translation will probably not get recognitio from the Holy See.

That would seem to be the point of the proposal from the Archdiocese - to get permission to make a translation of the EF.

Blessings

 

[mardukm]

ilokano, ilonggo, Cebuano/Visaya

I’ve gotta tell you. My wife read this and she said to me:

"Are those Cebuanos now claiming to be the Visayan dialect? Who do they think they are?

She told me that Ilokano, Ilongo and Cebuano are ALL Visayan dialects. Linguists normally consider Visaya a different language than Tagalog, similar to the distinction between Spanish and Portuguese. I tend to agree with that assessment. I can barely understand Tagalog, though I speak Ilongo kind of fluently.

Blessings

 

[mardukm]

The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ two thousand years ago. It is greater than any particular country or culture. It isn’t up to the Church to adapt to a group of people - quite the opposite.

I guess we haven’t been reading the same Church history books.

I believe it was St. Paul himself who taught us the method the Church must use in her evangelizations efforts - To a Jew, I am a Jew; to a Greek I am a Greek; I am all things to all men, so I may bring all to Christ.

Blessings

 

[mardukm]

Lost Wanderer:

Yet Jesus didn’t speak in Latin when He went to preach to the masses. He spoke Aramaic did he not? Did he not also speak in unorthodox parables?

The inscription above Christ’s head on the cross was written in Latin, Greek, and Hebrew. Let’s presume He understood all three and not denigrate any one of those sacred languages.

Ummm. Lost wanderer stated Jesus did not preach in Latin.

Blessings

 

[mardukm]

Do you think the Church is forty years old? How did all those missionaries convert people in every nation on the planet for centuries? There is nothing special about the Philippines that the Church hasn’t overcome before. However, if you insist upon customization then perhaps leaving the Church is an option. Keep in mind there is no salvation outside the Church though.

I think that’s the same exact argument that Latin bishops in Germany used against Sts. Cyril and Methodius when the brothers wanted to use Slavonic in their liturgy. The Pope said the Latin bishops were wrong. 'Nuf said.

Blessings

 

[ConstantineTG]

Dear brother ConstantineTG,

I know you know that the Filipino mind does not always translate perfectly into English. A reading of Filipino newspapers in English at my house from my wife proves that.

Heheheheh. Filipinos are well educated in English. The problem is while we use English words and terms all the time, its rarely we would speak in complete sentences in English. So the common mistake of Filipinos is to construct a sentence in Filipino in their minds, then translate it word per word into English, which would sound silly in English because sentence construction in Filipino is closer to other Asian languages than in English

While we respect the option to use Latin and celebrate the Tridentine liturgy, we uphold the use of the vernacular in our parishes and communities and recommend translations that faithfully reflect both the spiritual doctrine of the texts and the linguistic patterns of our vernacular languages.
I think what the text is actually saying is “While we repect the option to use Latin while celebrating the Tridentine Liturgy, we uphold the use of vernacular and recommend translations…”

Of course, this makes it seem like the EF is already in regular use, not rather as an option. So to reflect both the idea that the focus of the statement is the use of Latin in the EF, and that the EF is a matter of choice, the statement comes to us as we now have it – confusing.

I can guarantee you that the EF is not in regular use. In fact I was only made aware this year that there is indeed a priest who celebrates Mass in the EF in the Philippines, and its been almost 4 years since I left the country. The whole time I was there I was never aware of the EF. And I go to Mass all over the place. And there are a ton of parishes in Metro Manila alone, I think from one parish to the next is less than 10 mins, and that is with the traffic so far all of them are in the OF that I know of. Including the bigger and older parishes (like 300 years old). So I guess I understood it in the context that they refer to the OF.

Still, I think the key is the phrase “we recommend translations.” The statement is obviously talking about a text that has not previously been translated to Filipino. That can only refer to the EF that was already referred to earlier in the statement.

I’m pretty sure a majority of Filipino Catholics, especially my age who are born post-V2, aren’t even aware of the EF. And I think it would be rather silly to ask to translate the EF. Maybe its just bad Filipino English thats confusing you, because it makes sense to me

Perhaps that is because people are generally satisfied with the OF. But what I think the statement is saying is “IF we use the EF, because you have given us greater freedom to use it, we would recommend that it be translated in the vernacular.”

That would seem to be the point of the proposal from the Archdiocese - to get permission to make a translation of the EF.

Blessings

One complaint I have about Filipino Masses is that Formal Filipino or Tagalog uses antiquated Filipino. Sort of like Shakespearean English. Its possible they just want to re-translate the OF into something more current. My only worry is most current words in Filipino aren’t considered formal and are bred from slangs, it may not be worthy of Mass. But thats just me, I’m not an expert of the language even though I’m a native speaker of it, maybe they can make something current and reverent. I will have to at least give them the chance.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I’ve gotta tell you. My wife read this and she said to me:

"Are those Cebuanos now claiming to be the Visayan dialect? Who do they think they are?

LOL
Don’t tell her a Manilenyo said it
Honestly, I had a girlfriend who’s Cebuano. I know she told me that Cebuano and Visaya are different, but I still have this inclination that they are the same, they just don’t want to admit to it. Cebuanos are proud of their culture. They’re the Quebec of the Philippines

She told me that Ilokano, Ilongo and Cebuano are ALL Visayan dialects. Linguists normally consider Visaya a different language than Tagalog, similar to the distinction between Spanish and Portuguese. I tend to agree with that assessment. I can barely understand Tagalog, though I speak Ilongo kind of fluently.

Blessings

Cool. Ilokano is not Visayan though, its from the North of Luzon, Ilocos. My wife is from the North although she never spoke Ilokano. When I visited their province I saw their parish had one Ilokano Mass.

 

[Aramis]

It depends on which history books you read, and how you read them. Spain wanted to conquer the philippines for land and resources. The church wanted to christianize the philippines to save their souls. I can be argued that one was bad, one was good. Spain sent the conquistadors, the church sent the missionaries. It’s important to seperate the two, even if they came on the same boats.

And the Conquistadores made great sport of punishing those who rejected missionaries, not just in the Philippines, but throughout their empire… leading many of the much kinder hearted missionaries to adapt the local customs into syncretic hybrids. Even with the Trent liturgy, the paraliturgical celebrations are syncretic, while the mass was far less affected.

 

[ConstantineTG]

And the Conquistadores made great sport of punishing those who rejected missionaries, not just in the Philippines, but throughout their empire… leading many of the much kinder hearted missionaries to adapt the local customs into syncretic hybrids. Even with the Trent liturgy, the paraliturgical celebrations are syncretic, while the mass was far less affected.

True. As good a job as the missionaries did in spreading the faith, I find that not all pagan beliefs were eradicated. There is still a lot of superstition despite hundreds of years of Christianity.

 

[mardukm]

They’re the Quebec of the Philippines

My wife disagrees. Here’s here reasoning (don’t laugh) –

French is the most pleasant-sounding language of Europe.

Ilongo is the most pleasant-sounding language of the Philippines.

Thus, Ilongo is the French of the Philippines.

Ilongo is not the language of Cebu.

Since Cebu does not speak the French of the Philippines, she cannot be the Quebec of the Philippines.



Btw, is that true? I mean, is Ilongo the most pleasant-sounding language in the Philippines? My wife tells me that when non-Ilongo speakers hear it, they say it sounds very melodious - like someone singing.

Blessings

 

[malphono]

I think what the text is actually saying is “While we repect the option to use Latin while celebrating the Tridentine Liturgy, we uphold the use of vernacular and recommend translations…”

Sorry, but I don’t buy that. I hate quoting myself but I have to repeat what I said very early on in this thread:

Sounds to me that the first phrase in the following item (“While we respect the option to use Latin and celebrate the Tridentine liturgy”) was included because they had no choice but to do so. The rest of the item is pretty clear: they want no Latin in the OF. Taken to the quick, that idea could have come from an equivalent meeting in the US or anywhere else for that matter.

While we respect the option to use Latin and celebrate the Tridentine liturgy, we uphold the use of the vernacular in our parishes and communities and recommend translations that faithfully reflect both the spiritual doctrine of the texts and the linguistic patterns of our vernacular languages.

Further, and beyond that first disclaimer, the rest of the statement is more than clear that the focus of the statement is the OF.

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Malphono,

Sorry, but I don’t buy that. I hate quoting myself but I have to repeat what I said very early on in this thread:

Further, and beyond that first disclaimer, the rest of the statement is more than clear that the focus of the statement is the OF.

It can’t be true that they don’t want Latin in the OF. I know for a fact that Filipinos often sing certain hymns in Latin.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[malphono]

It can’t be true that they don’t want Latin in the OF. I know for a fact that Filipinos often sing certain hymns in Latin.

Yes I know. And even in some areas, at least, of the US where there are only a small Filipino communities, a disproportionate number of them assist at the EF. But neither of those things has much bearing on the “statement” at the heart of this thread.

I don’t care now one dresses it up, that statement is very clear to me: no Latin in the OF. The way it’s written, it says: “if you want Latin, go find an EF, 'cause as long as WE have anything to say about, it ya ain’t gonna get it at the OF.”

 

[Layman]

Two things:

While we respect the option to use Latin and celebrate the Tridentine liturgy, **[BUT] **we uphold the use of the vernacular in our parishes and communities and recommend translations that faithfully reflect both the spiritual doctrine of the texts and the linguistic patterns of our vernacular languages.

A wise man once said: When a ‘but’ appears in a sentence, what people really mean comes after the ‘but’ e.g. “Holly Dowell is a lovely person, don’t get me wrong, *but *…”

I’ve inserted the implied ‘but’, above.

1. Just what does ‘inculturation’ or ‘linguistic patterns of our vernacular languages’ mean in practice? It all sounds very high-falutin but in practice, in the West, it means cheesy hymns, dodgy presentations, childish church decor and, yikes, the occasional bit of liturgical dancing. A quality level equivalent to a school play.

The people who want and do this sort of thing this stuff generally aren’t qualified to alter The Holy Sacrifice Of The Mass. They’re not even qualified to hold down a career as a commercial artist, I’d say.

 

[malphono]

Just what does ‘inculturation’ or ‘linguistic patterns of our vernacular languages’ mean in practice? It all sounds very high-falutin but in practice, in the West, it means cheesy hymns, dodgy presentations, childish church decor and, yikes, the occasional bit of liturgical dancing. A quality level equivalent to a school play.

While it’s not exactly the same issue as in this thread, there was a short thread in another forum here, and one in this forum concerning “inculturation” in India. If you haven’t already, do have a look.

 

[ProVobis]

That would seem to be the point of the proposal from the Archdiocese - to get permission to make a translation of the EF.

Having a translation of the EF would defeat the whole purpose of having a liturgy in its untranslateable and unchanging form, which Pope John XXIII promulgated in the 1962 Missal. He also issued the strong encyclical Veterum Sapientia which effectively banned vernacular in the same year so we know the 1962 Missal was never intended to be translated.

There is a form available for those who wish the translation already; it is called the Anglican Use. Why not promote that?

 

[ProVobis]

Ummm. Lost wanderer stated Jesus did not preach in Latin.

Blessings

Well, we know He didn’t preach in English so English is out, too.

 

[ProVobis]

Filipinos are well educated in English. The problem is while we use English words and terms all the time, its rarely we would speak in complete sentences in English.

Hey, we have Presidents and politicians who do the same thing. They play fast and lose with the language. They know that they need to control the language to push their agenda and to win elections. Do you really want to pray to God in that same language?

 

[ConstantineTG]

Hey, we have Presidents and politicians who do the same thing. They play fast and lose with the language. They know that they need to control the language to push their agenda and to win elections. Do you really want to pray to God in that same language?

Our English translations fortunately are not made by the common man, nor even our local vernacular translations. I can assure you that the text of our Mass and prayers are very beautiful.

 

[ConstantineTG]

My wife disagrees. Here’s here reasoning (don’t laugh) –

French is the most pleasant-sounding language of Europe.

Ilongo is the most pleasant-sounding language of the Philippines.

Thus, Ilongo is the French of the Philippines.

Ilongo is not the language of Cebu.

Since Cebu does not speak the French of the Philippines, she cannot be the Quebec of the Philippines.



Btw, is that true? I mean, is Ilongo the most pleasant-sounding language in the Philippines? My wife tells me that when non-Ilongo speakers hear it, they say it sounds very melodious - like someone singing.

Blessings

LOL
I said that because (sorry Quebecois) Quebec is known to love their language (French) and refure to accept the language of the rest of Canada (English). Cebuanos reject Filipino because its mostly Tagalog. When I first met my then girlfriend, we had to communicate in English as our common language because she doesn’t want to speak in Tagalog and I don’t know Cebuano.

I have to agree though that ilonggo sounds like the person is talking in a sweet, affectionate way all the time. But they’re not as prideful as the Cebuanos. Although credit the Cebuanos, Magellan landed in Mactan which is part of Cebu. Christianity in the Phlippines began in Mactan.