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ConstantineTG
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I’ll spend as much time you’re willing to spend understanding Philippine Culture and Catholicism in the Philippines
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Ockham
Guest
As the bishops of the Philippines are saying their culture isn’t as important as preserving the tradition and integrity of the liturgy. You have made numerous posts indicating a willingness to follow the teachings of the Church. Take notice of what the bishops are saying and disregard what so-called liturgists are trying to do. If you actually read what the bishops of your previous country are saying your position in this thread should be different than what you are posting. Could it be in your best interests to read them again?I’ll spend as much time you’re willing to spend understanding Philippine Culture and Catholicism in the Philippines
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ConstantineTG
Guest
That is why I said I had faith in our bishops that whatever will be done will not be soemthing against the Church or her tradition. I did make a point that I think our disconnect here is that you and I have different perceptions of what inculturation means especially in the context of the Church in the Philippines. The Bishops need to make these statements to reiterate that. And its not like they haven’t implemented anything in the past, they have. But everything done is subtle and doesn’t alter the Liturgy. One example is the “mano” I just discussed. Did it change the Mass? No. But it incorporated a practice thats very much part of our culture. That is all I expect out of this. That is why I ask you to understand the situation of the Church in the country, to know that things like this has been done and its not a bad thing at all. Sure, there have been grave abuses in other countries, I can’t see that happening in our country because I know we have conservative Bishops (generally). Yes, there are abuses that happen in the parish level, but I can’t see the CBCP as a whole giving in to that.As the bishops of the Philippines are saying their culture isn’t as important as preserving the tradition and integrity of the liturgy. You have made numerous posts indicating a willingness to follow the teachings of the Church. Take notice of what the bishops are saying and disregard what so-called liturgists are trying to do. If you actually read what the bishops of your previous country are saying your position in this thread should be different than what you are posting. Could it be in your best interests to read them again?
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Ockham
Guest
The progressive Filipino liturgists believe the country needs a unique liturgy. The country’s bishops beg to differ as does our Holy Father, prefering a universal liturgy. The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church is greater than any particular country or culture. It’s that simple.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
The fact of the matter is its never that simple.The progressive Filipino liturgists believe the country needs a unique liturgy. The country’s bishops beg to differ as does our Holy Father, prefering a universal liturgy. The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church is greater than any particular country or culture. It’s that simple.
Another inculturation I can think of is the love of Filipinos going to malls. Its akin to Canadians spending a sunny weekend day in the Park. We just hang out at Malls. And what does the Church do about this? They’ve made efforts to ensure there are spaces in most of the popular malls to celebrate Mass. Yes, we have Mass at Malls. Is the Mass any different? No. But because of our Mall going culture, it is and adjustment that the Church has made to accomodate the mall-going faithful.
See, these are things you never think of because of unfamiliarity with the culture. That is why I’m asking, understand the culture and the situation of the Church in the country. It never is the same, it never is that simple.
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Ockham
Guest
Listen to the bishops. They disagree with you. It’s that simple.See, these are things you never think of because of unfamiliarity with the culture. That is why I’m asking, understand the culture and the situation of the Church in the country. It never is the same, it never is that simple.
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ProVobis
Guest
Megachurches use the same concept. What’s your point?And what does the Church do about this? They’ve made efforts to ensure there are spaces in most of the popular malls to celebrate Mass.
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Aramis
Guest
And in its greatness, embraces 26 very ethnic liturgies as valid and worthy of preservation… including 4 western ones (Anglican, Mozarabic, Bragan and Ambrosian).The progressive Filipino liturgists believe the country needs a unique liturgy. The country’s bishops beg to differ as does our Holy Father, prefering a universal liturgy. The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church is greater than any particular country or culture. It’s that simple.
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Ockham
Guest
Did you read the bishop’s letter?And in its greatness, embraces 26 very ethnic liturgies as valid and worthy of preservation… including 4 western ones (Anglican, Mozarabic, Bragan and Ambrosian).
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ConstantineTG
Guest
I don’t think you are understanding what the Bishop is trying to say because simple you do not understand it in the context of Philippine society.Listen to the bishops. They disagree with you. It’s that simple.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
I think you missed the point that Mass is celebrated in a shopping mall. Like in the shopping mall itself. Note that this is not a chapel in a mall but they would occupy mall space itself. Sometimes its a temporary space, but temporary here is used loosely because the Mass is said there every Sunday.Megachurches use the same concept. What’s your point?
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Ockham
Guest
How’s that? Explain the bishop’s letter in your context.I don’t think you are understanding what the Bishop is trying to say because simple you do not understand it in the context of Philippine society.
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joeantony
Guest
Hi ProVobis,Non-sequitor. We’re talking about preserving the truth.
Do you mean to say that Truth= Latin ?
If “Truth” ( I believe you are thinking of the official texts of vatican) is written in anyother langauge or spoken in any other langauge ceases to be not “Truth” ?
Also, it is important for us to realise when churches around the world do the inculturation in their liturgies, they do not intend to go away from Papacy. Niether their faith is deteriorated nor they are less informed. It is just that they are focusing on the correct thing. Which is a liturgy that the congregation can understand and contemplate on.
Latin evidenlty is not capable of penetrating the minds of large number of people. It is ridiculous to put a linguistic qualification to be able to understand and participate in liturgy.
Having said that as far I understand everybody who speak for the inculturation and vernacular liturgies is not asking for a rock concert or a skit in the church. They all want to do it as sacredly as possible in their langauge. I think we we approach inculturation as a tool that rest of the world uses to reduce the sactity of the liturgy we will of course consider “NO LATIN” statement as evil. But even the veracular, inculturised liturgies and people who love it ask for more traditional apprach in liturgies, but surely not in Latin. Latin does ot equate for “traditional” in much larger parts of teh world.
Joe
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Read all my posts. I don’t want to type them all over again.How’s that? Explain the bishop’s letter in your context.
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ProVobis
Guest
Important to note that they are solid and not retranslated every 40 years.And in its greatness, embraces 26 very ethnic liturgies as valid and worthy of preservation… including 4 western ones (Anglican, Mozarabic, Bragan and Ambrosian).
Or are they, without my knowledge?
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ProVobis
Guest
Actually yes if you follow my argument here:Hi ProVobis,
If “Truth” ( I believe you are thinking of the official texts of vatican) is written in anyother langauge or spoken in any other langauge ceases to be not “Truth” ?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=7083345#post7083345
Mathematical truth π can’t be interpreted without loss of precision. What makes you think Latin truth can be?
The rest of your post doesn’t seem to agree with the fact that 1600 years (at least) worth of Latin Masses were capable of giving Catholics full understanding of what the Mass was all about, even if they didn’t understand every single word of it or didn’t have handmissals to translate it for them.
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Ockham
Guest
Thanks for the offer but I’ll decline. Perhaps if you lowered the quantity and raised the quality of your posts I would accept.Read all my posts. I don’t want to type them all over again.
You should read the bishop’s letter as you seem to be opposed to his guidance. Rather than customizing a Filipino liturgy the Archbishop of Ozamis is saying Mass in the Philippines should resemble a Papal Mass.
*"A search for creativity and community were dominant projects in “reform-minded” Catholic circles in the 1960s and beyond. In itself, this might not have been bad. But the philosophy that the community was god, and that “God” was not fully “God” without the community was the source of ideas that have done most damage to the Church.
This secular notion of community made its way into the liturgy to gradually supplant the inherited Christian tradition.
These self-appointed arbiters of the reform were, and I hate to say this, liturgical hijackers who deprived ordinary parishioners – and bewildered pastors – of their right to the normative worship of their own Church. Hence, there was the need for a reform of the reform.
A major goal of Pope Benedict XVI is the restoration of our Catholic identity. Liturgy is a key component of such an endeavor.
Benedict’s broad liturgical approach can be described in terms of “continuity,” i.e. recovering elements of the liturgical tradition which he believes were too hastily set aside or downplayed in the immediate period after the Second Vatican Council."*
…]
Self-made liturgy is a contradiction in terms, and he [Pope Benedict XVI] distrusts liturgies that emphasize spontaneity, self-expression and extreme forms of local inculturation.
…]
Whoever takes part in, or watches, a papal liturgy should be able to say, “This is the way it should be done. Even in my diocese, in my parish!”"
ucanews.com/2010/09/23/the-liturgical-renewal-i-would-like-to-see/
I also suggest reading “Spirit of the Liturgy” by then Cardinal Ratzinger.
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Layman
Guest
Probably been said before, but however did Roman Catholicism spread if Latin is such an impediment to participation in the Mass?
I’ve seen what letting the locals get creative does to Mass. The result is sentimentality banality and puerility. A fabrication of a history badly-remembered. You get something that, far from being timeless, dates pretty quickly.
I’ve seen what letting the locals get creative does to Mass. The result is sentimentality banality and puerility. A fabrication of a history badly-remembered. You get something that, far from being timeless, dates pretty quickly.
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ProVobis
Guest
And the necessity of having to retranslate after 40 years is proof of that.Probably been said before, but however did Roman Catholicism spread if Latin is such an impediment to participation in the Mass?
I’ve seen what letting the locals get creative does to Mass. The result is sentimentality banality and puerility. A fabrication of a history badly-remembered. You get something that, far from being timeless, dates pretty quickly.
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Aramis
Guest
The Mozarabic is being translated to modern Spanish.Important to note that they are solid and not retranslated every 40 years.
Or are they, without my knowledge?
Many of the 22 EC’s have had new translations for their diasporal parishes at least once in the last 50 years… and several were using vernacular for their diasporal communities well before V II.
So, yes, they are
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