Progressive Philippines Catholicism

  • Thread starter Thread starter Ockham
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
By the way, all these new translations for the English OF Missal, its been done right the first time in the Tagalog Missal. I’ve been comparing current English translations and the new English Translations with the Tagalog translation and the Tagalog translation is closer to the new translations, which means they’re more faithful to the Latin all along. And I maintain that some of the words, while acurate, are dated and could benefit the people if updated.
 
See, in the Philippines there are no Missals printed for the people. Because we are a third world country and poor, books tend to go missing all the time. Many people resort to petty crime just to have something to eat every day. The paper from missals will be brought to paper recyclers where these people will get some money for their food. Its a sad reality but it is the reality. And like I mentioned before, many people aren’t even that good with reading, if they can read at all. So much for missals.
You said it! There’s also the fact that a lot of churches aren’t very high-maintenance. There’s this one adoration chapel I went to with my mom a few times, and all the books and bibles there that were supposed to help you with meditations and stuff were so worn out, some even had a few pages torn (not torn off mind you, but the tears were HUGE). As far as repairs to such books go, most often they just use cheap scotch-tape.

I don’t even wanna begin to describe the state of the more ancient (and need I say historical churches) such as the ones I’ve visited in my hometown of Cebu City and that one time my family and relatives vacationed in Bohol. I mean seriously, despite their historical value, they are deteriorating. I have to actually pay a small fee just to use the bathroom for crying out loud. You can see bats and birds making nests all over the roofs, pews rotting away from termite infestations… and these Latin-insistent folks are going on about printing booklets. Layman, you can shake your head in disbelief all you want. ProVobis, you can keep laughing at our poverty. The fact remains, its the truth. This is coming from someone who lives here!

As much as I’ve found a fair deal of my country to be proud of, its poverty, international third-world status, and the general fact that anything outside a tour-guide’s route is a complete dump are not included.

And here you all are, laughing and finding it hard to believe simply because a majority of our population prefer Mass spoken in a language we understand over a dead one.
 
I’ve been comparing current English translations and the new English Translations with the Tagalog translation and the Tagalog translation is closer to the new translations, which means **they’re more faithful to the Latin **all along.
So you know enough Latin to make this claim? Or are you just parroting what you’ve been told?
 
ProVobis, you can keep laughing at our poverty.
Perhaps you have more poverty over there, granted, but we do have our share of homeless who live in city churches, crowded bathrooms, and fried chicken laid out in the streets. Come sometime in the middle of winter and see how we put up with subzero weather, freezing rains, and 20 inches of snow. It’s not exactly perfect heaven here.

But what exactly does poverty have to do with it? Over 1600 years of illiterates, the poor, in frozen and hot climates have attended the Latin Mass. How did that happen?
 
Perhaps you have more poverty over there, granted, but we do have our share of homeless who live in city churches, crowded bathrooms, and fried chicken laid out in the streets. Come sometime in the middle of winter and see how we put up with subzero weather, freezing rains, and 20 inches of snow. It’s not exactly perfect heaven here.

But what exactly does poverty have to do with it? Over 1600 years of illiterates, the poor, in frozen and hot climates have attended the Latin Mass. How did that happen?
I’ve also seen homeless Whites, Eskimo and Athabascans attend Tagalog, Samoan and Korean OF masses… people who have no clue as to the language, but are there because (1) it’s warm, (2) it makes them feel less outcast, and (3) there’s usually a reception with food afterwards (which if they don’t draw too much attention at, they can get a good plate of food).

The evidence is that a lot of people didn’t understand what was happening, other than it was “beneficial for their souls, and beautiful to behold”… and “Missing Mass is a sin that sends you to hell!!!” It was never all the people, might not have been most, but it was quite a few. They went, they said their prayers by rote, went to confession and communion… but really didn’t understand what they were saying, nor why.

For many, it became empty repetition. Complaints about empty repetition due to ignorance were rife from the 1500’s on…
 
Perhaps you have more poverty over there, granted, but we do have our share of homeless who live in city churches, crowded bathrooms, and fried chicken laid out in the streets. Come sometime in the middle of winter and see how we put up with subzero weather, freezing rains, and 20 inches of snow. It’s not exactly perfect heaven here.
Compared to cramped slum areas with hardly decent plumbing which could all be easily washed away by floods and typhoons? If not typhoons then blazed by fires started by either the extreme heat of the dry season, bad electrical wiring, careless fire handling, or simply just a gust of wind fanning the flames of a nearby pile of burning trash. (Yes burning trash is still pretty much a common practice here.)
But what exactly does poverty have to do with it? Over 1600 years of illiterates, the poor, in frozen and hot climates have attended the Latin Mass. How did that happen?
Did it ever occur to you that they didn’t even understand the Latin and just blindly replied? Its pretty much common knowledge that the Spanish during their 300-year reign here were quite frequent to use the Church as a means of suppressing us, who they refer to as the “common and inferior indio”, just as American evangelicals used the Bible to deem blacks inferior.

In fact here’s a nice little quote from Chapter 60 of Noli Me Tangere. Here’s what our national hero had to portray regarding those who learned Latin. You’re lucky I managed to scrounge up my English translation of it from when I was still in high school.
Even if Captain Tinong had wanted to talk back, he could not very well have done so. His wife had both her hands over his mouth, pressing back his head against the armchair, so that the poor man would have choked to death but for the arrival and intervention of a newcomer.
He was the couple’s cousin, Don Primitivo, who knew Amat’s book by heart, a man of some forty years, faultlessly groomed, full-bellied and somewhat chubby.
Quid video? What do I see?” he exclaimed upon entering, “and why? Quare?
“Ay cousin,” said the woman, advancing tearfully towards him. “I had you called; I don’t know what will become of us… What do you advise us? Tell us, you who studied Latin and know how to argue…”
“But before all else, quid quaeritis? Nihil est in intellectu quod prius non fuerit in sensu; nihil volitum quin praecognitum; what do you want? There is nothing in the mind which is not perceived by the senses, and what is unknown cannot be desired.”
And he sat himself down deliberately. As if the Latin phrases had a tranquilizing virtue, the couple stopped weeping and approached him, awaiting counsel from his lips, as once did the Greeks of old before the saying word of the oracle that would rescue them from their Persian invaders.
Mind you? Me and my siblings get the same treatment because we speak good English. But the difference between us and this Primitivo character is: WE. CAN’T. STAND. IT!!!

Don’t you see? Any language that is above the vernacular (including English) is in of itself a mark of social status. Its a stupid way to mark but its a mark nonetheless. I can only imagine how much worse its gonna be (and in the past, most likely was) for the Mass.
 
Did it ever occur to you that they didn’t even understand the Latin and just blindly replied?
Only the servers need to reply in the EF. And it wasn’t so much the people understood every word of the priest as much as understanding what the Mass was. I understood only a few words of the opera Madame Butterfly but I knew what the opera was about. When you find more believing the Mass is just a meal, something definitely went wrong with the translations. But, presuming you are right, that brings up an interesting question. Would you prefer that people understand nothing or people understand the theology incorrectly?

Again, and though your story is a good one, how is a translation, any translation, superior to the original text?

Maybe the Italians have a point when they say “Traduttore, tradittore” or “Translator, traitor.” (which means I’m a traitor for even writing this. 🙂 )
 
But, presuming you are right, that brings up an interesting question. Would you prefer that people understand nothing or people understand the theology incorrectly?
This is moot. They’re both nothing but equal levels of ignorance. What’s your point?
Again, and though your story is a good one, how is a translation, any translation, superior to the original text?

Maybe the Italians have a point when they say “Traduttore, tradittore” or “Translator, traitor.” (which means I’m a traitor for even writing this. 🙂 )
English, Spanish, whatever. The content is the same. Rizal wasn’t exactly the best friend of the imperialist-infested clergy of the time. He was also quite familiar with the Filipino colonial mentality (attitudes towards language was just one manifestation of it).
 
English, Spanish, whatever. The content is the same.
Mathematically speaking, given that many words have a multitude of meanings, this is virtually impossible.

English isn’t/wasn’t my first language and having had to do many translations for my own parents, I decided there were times when certain things were better left untranslated. I simply said that I didn’t know how to translate this or that. That probably motivated them to learn English (a little more).
 
Mathematically speaking, given that many words have a multitude of meanings, this is virtually impossible.
That’s not my point. Have you resorted to nitpicking my words now since you can’t come up with a response to the fact that the colonial mentality that plagues the Filipino attitude towards non-native languages gives one sufficient reason to do away with Latin so they’d have lesser alienation from the Mass?
 
That’s not my point. Have you resorted to nitpicking my words now since you can’t come up with a response to the fact that the colonial mentality that plagues the Filipino attitude towards non-native languages gives one sufficient reason to do away with Latin so they’d have lesser alienation from the Mass?
Personally, I think this is also the same reason why a full comeback of the EF into the mainstream will take a while into the Philippines (I’m not saying it’s impossible, only that it requires a bit of work).

A lot of Filipinos (me included :D) are taught in schools of what is obstinately ‘Philippine history’. Which is well and good, though I feel that parts of it are, in one sense, biased (not that it’s bad; we all have biases, after all).

One thing that I often think about is how we often portray our heroes as saint-like entities, while our ‘enemies’ were often demonized in a way that you kinda find it hard to symphatize with them. For example, Spain. It’s common knowledge that Spain is (this really bad) entity that took away our freedom by putting on us the yoke of imperialism for three centuries. The writings and deeds of the men we call our heroes (say, Rizal) are not much help either, since they portray Spaniards in a negative light.

But many do not know that the Spaniards were not all bad. Beyond fiestas and surnames, Spain also brought to us, first and foremost, Christianity (thanks be to God). Second would be the whole idea of the Philippines being one nation. If Spain never colonized us, then we still probably would have been small and separate kingdoms/sultanates even today. Third would be education. It is oft-repeated that some Spaniards wanted to exploit the ignorance of the Indios (another trivia: ‘Filipino’ in those days referred to Spaniards born in the islands - the natives are all relegated to the title ‘Indian’ or ‘Indio’ ;)). But the Spaniards did establish numerous primary schools to educate the indios. The reason why university was never widespread in the islands those days was the fact that our economy was primarily agricultural. You won’t really need higher education if you were to become a farmer or a merchant, which is what many became in those days.

Also, we need to understand that a lot of what happened back then was a result of the ‘times’. The exploitation, slavery, and etc. were all a natural order of things. Spain itself was ravaged by numerous wars. Their colonies, Philippines included, bankrupted their national coffers. You can’t expect Spain to put the ‘Indios’ first before their own citizens. I understand that many unjust and immoral deeds (those I can’t really stomach) were committed, but we don’t need to play it up than what was required of us: if we were a superpower, we would have been doing the same things as well.

And BTW, while Spain never did teach the Filipinos Spanish, it wasn’t the reason why we never learned to speak Spanish. At its height, Spanish was spoken by 60% of the populace with varying degrees of fluency. The reason why it became rare is because the Americans (who colonized us next) suppressed it, putting English in its place. As a result, by the 1960’s, only a few knew Spanish. In Latin American countries, the Spanish language never became widely spoken until they gained their independence from Spain. In the Philippines, the same would have happened if not for the American invasion.

This is something I want to discuss next: the American invasion. You don’t find many blaming America, even though they colonized and exploited us such as Spain did. In many of our history books, America is often this great friend who redeemed us from those dastardly Spaniards (and later, the Japanese) and gave us ‘education’ and ‘freedom’. Yes, the Americans were probably less cruel and resulted more to propaganda than force of arms in colonizing the country. However that doesn’t take away the fact that they still exploited our land. But have you ever seen people who actually bear a grudge with America on the same level as Spain (and possibly, Japan)? Not too many, I think. 😉

Most of the men who stood up against the Spaniards at the Philippine Revolution of 1896-1898 are all hailed as heroes who helped win us some freedom (even though it was short-lived, as the Americans came next), but if you’ll notice, many of the folks who fought against the Americans still had some status as insignificant ‘trouble-makers’ and ‘fanatics’. In official history, Miguel Malvar was the last general to surrender to the Americans, but in reality, many people still continued the struggle after the Philippine-American War officially ended. Massive propaganda labeled these men (whom I put on a par with the people who fought in the 19th century Revolution) as mere bandoleros and were stigmatized until recent research put them in a more positive light. Ever familiar with names such as Macario Sakay and his Republika ng Katagalugan, Lucio de Vega, the Pulahanes, Luciano San Miguel, Papa Isio, Artemio Ricarte, and Julian Montalan?
 
(continued)

Not to mention that trying to question the names and deeds of the venerable national heroes would be kind of tantamount to blasphemy. Just dig deep into or question the more ‘juicy’ and ‘darker’ aspects and negative traits of, say, National Hero Jose Rizal’s life (i.e. his involvement with Freemasonry - which is not really unique; many of the ‘heroes’ were also Freemasons - and his relationship with a lot of women), and let’s see if that doesn’t get some stares, or worse - be called a traitor to the country. Nah, I’m just exaggerating. 😃

I also personally think that one of the sad aspects that Filipino Nationalism has brought is the attitude against the Church itself. With the execution of prominent ethnic Filipino clergy such as Fr. José Burgos (and two other priests) at the hands of the Spanish royal authorities, church reforms became a facet of the Philippine independence movement.

Whereas many Spanish friars protested abuses by the Spanish government and military, other friars were committing many abuses. Many Filipinos were enraged when Spanish friars blocked the ascent of the Filipino clergy in the Catholic Church hierarchy. Vast lands were claimed as friars’ estates from landless farmers. There were also widely known cases of sexual abuse of women by priests - to the point that Rizal wrote about it, thus making the whole character of the (obese) Spanish fraile who mistreats indios and fathers illegitimate children a cliché for future generations.

This to the point that Gregorio Aglipay, an activist priest from Ilocos Norte who, despite his intercession and defense of some of the Spanish Catholic clergy from liberal-nationalist Filipino revolutionaries, was excommunicated for inciting rebellion, founded his own church, the Philippine Independent Church (aka the Aglipayans), along with politician Isabelo de los Reyes, Sr. The new church absolutely rejected the spiritual authority of the Pope (then Pope Leo XIII) and abolished the celibacy requirement from its clergy, allowing marriage among its priests, who were all former Catholic priests.

According to the ever-trusty wikipedia:

The church drew concepts of theology and worship from the Masonic Code and much of its support and inspiration from Miguel Morayta, the grand master of the Spanish Orient Lodge of Freemasonry in Madrid. Aglipay was also a Mason. The case with Morayta and other non-Filipino laymen who pushed Aglipay toward schism was merely motivation by hatred toward the friars and/or the Catholic Church rather than any kind of nationalism.

Later on, the new independent Church reformed the traditional Catholic Latin Tridentine liturgy drastically after the model of the Anglican vernacular reform. The Eucharist has been said in Spanish (sometimes: Portuguese) since the early days of the church.

While visiting other churches while travelling abroad, Aglipay rejected the divinity of Jesus and the Trinity, becoming theologically Unitarian, however the church refused to accepted his amended theology. Aglipay’s unitarian and progressive theological ideas were evident in his novenary, Pagsisiyam sa Birhen sa Balintawak, 1925 and its English translation, Novenary of the Motherland, 1926.
 
Now for my opinion over the whole matter:

I, too, would wish that Latin would make a comeback. I do recognize the difficulty. One of which is: Traditionalists are not much of a visible presence in the Philippines compared to other areas, last time I checked. But they are there, and I hope they themselves would do efforts to make the EF more mainstream.

As for oft-brought up state of poverty the Philippines are in. Yes, I grew up AMONG these people who live in houses of scraps of G.I. sheets (yero), plywood and cardboard, who hardly have enough to eat three meals for one day. Call me unsympathetic if you want, but I don’t really think that any major difference would occur whether the Mass is in Tagalog, English, Latin, Klingon and whatnot (I do like me some Latin though). After all, most of us all just sleep on the pews or look bored until recession; not to mention that many of us don’t even enter the church (including, but not limited to the reason that a miracle often occurs during Sunday or Feastday: hundreds to thousands of people pop up on the aisles of the sparsely-populated churches! :D), but just look or listen from outside while we do whatever it is that we are doing. 😛

Personally, I have a more efficient idea that doesn’t require the written word: what exactly is the homily/sermon for? 😉 Can’t Father use the sermons (or the time before and after Mass) to teach the laity, even if bit by bit (after all, serials are all the rage among us Filipinos, ain’t it? :D), what exactly the EF is, and how to respond? That is, if folks are either not late (the quintessential ‘Filipino Time’!), dozing off during the sermon, or rushing for the door as soon as ‘Thanks be to God’ - or worse, after receiving the Body of our Lord? 😛

I may be a bit optimistic here, but while teaching a lot of people everything all at once is very hard to do, educating them even if bit by bit (repetitively, if necessary), and even starting with only a few people, I think, can make a major difference. A small mustard seed can grow into a large tree, after all.

This is why I think that some education is necessary before Latin can make it back into the mainstream of Filipino Catholicism; and let’s pray to the Lord that Filipino Traditionalists out there would do their part. And DepEd has got to do some work on the school textbooks! 😃

As for the vernacular: it may be the next best thing right now, but the people of God deserve a better translation than the rather loose paraphrase that we’ve been using for a while, so they better speed up the work on the new one! 😃
 
This is why I think that some education is necessary before Latin can make it back into the mainstream of Filipino Catholicism; and let’s pray to the Lord that Filipino Traditionalists out there would do their part. And DepEd has got to do some work on the school textbooks! 😃
I don’t know. From what you reported (btw, that was a great report!) studying Latin there would be like eating porridge at a breakfast donut and pastry party. You can tell them it’s the best thing for them but they’ll probably think you’re weird.

I hate porridge by the way, but I was just trying to make a point.
 
I have to actually pay a small fee just to use the bathroom for crying out loud. You can see bats and birds making nests all over the roofs, pews rotting away from termite infestations
And yet the phrase is: “This feature ] was paid for by the pennies of the poor”. If the churches are rotting it’s because the people don’t think they’re important enough to maintain. I submit the reason for this is that, post-1940’s, the clergy, by preaching about ‘merciful Jesus’ incessantly and ignoring Sin, Hell and Damnation and saying the O.F. in the local lingo, with all the populist elements added, have convinced the laity their religion is not an urgent matter any more.

Simply put: Why should you be worried about a rite where the sacred, taboo and mysterious elements have been stripped out and populist, mundane ones have been inserted? Coupled with bare churches, ‘buddy Jesus’ sermons and no fear of Hell, well, you’re being cued that you don’t need to. So what if the collection’s down 6 months on the trot?
 
Simply put: Why should you be worried about a rite where the sacred, taboo and mysterious elements have been stripped out and populist, mundane ones have been inserted? Coupled with bare churches, ‘buddy Jesus’ sermons and no fear of Hell, well, you’re being cued that you don’t need to. So what if the collection’s down 6 months on the trot?
Wait so a more fanciful ceremony will incite a higher collection rate? Again, your ignorance, nay insensitivity to a culture’s poverty-stricken, third-world environment is appalling. People are already scraping the bottom of the barrel (even the middle class) and you expect them to shed more cash for a high-maintenance Mass? I thought we were trying to keep the Church open for all not give them more reason to stop going.
 
rcam.org/news/2010/statement_NMDDL_2010.html

We are of the persuasion that liturgical renewal, as envisioned by the Constitution on Liturgy of Vatican II, entails liturgical inculturation and that our rich cultural heritage has much to offer to make the Roman liturgy truly Filipino".
The bolded portion is a logical error. The Gospel makes the culture truly itself, not the other way around.

If you want an example of the Church’s liturgy informing, preserving, sustaining, and developing a true culture and identity, then look no further than Quebec, Canada. The Quebecois were, for a very long time, strongly Catholic amidst a sea of English speaking peoples and Anglo-Saxon culture. The Quebecois not only preserved what was authentically theirs, but they developed their own unique culture that cannot be denied ; furthermore, they accomplished this not by works, but by Faith and perseverance. They remained Quebecois, and became Quebecois, not by introducing their own “liturgical renewal,” “liturgical reforms,” or by involving more females at the Altar - as if that action would magically inform their culture - but rather by being faithful to the Magisterium and Liturgy of the Church.

The population of Quebec kept up with their counter-parts in English-speaking Canada, although the latter relied heavily upon mass-immigration. Quebec, up until the middle of the 20th century, was the single largest province in Canada (by population) and also had the single largest Metropolis (Montreal). The French language and Quebecois culture was preserved from generation to generation without recourse to Draconian laws establishing it by fiat.

Following the secularization of Quebec, the government only then became insecure about its culture, and felt compelled to force the French language upon the province, as if culture could be kept and produced by force of human laws ; further, the population has collapsed, only creating greater anxiety about the preservation of their culture, accumulating in two failed attempts to break-away from Canada and establish a new nation. This vanity of theirs has resulted in Quebec becoming more and more like any and every other nation and people, except for an accident of tongue that some imagine makes them special and unique - as if peculiar tongues produced peculiar culture - they manifestly do not.

All of this foolishness about nationalizing liturgies is in fact dangerous to the culture of the nation. The Gospel produces, develops, purifies and informs authentic culture : not and never the other way around. Again, I would point to pre-Quiet Revolution Quebec with post-Quiet Revolution Quebec.

These serpents who perversely imagine their genes, tongues and natural environment are capable of divininzing the liturgy - as if it were not already divine - imagine themselves to be gods, and force themselves onto Holy Mother Church and seek to squash or silence the Holy Spirit acting within Her.

Pax,
Tim
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top