Projecting the words for songs at mass

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What in the world does this have to do with anything?

You were arguing about cost. I was giving you an answer.
Sorry, you have to look at the benefits as well. You can save money by not buying hymnals and many other things if you want to just look at costs saved. But I don’t think the OP was looking for a course in finance. And that’s all I’m going to say on this thread.
 
I can’t agree that merely putting song lyrics in large view improves focus or reverence.
You have zero basis for making such a statement because by your own admission you have never seen the Before and After at such a church. That’s the diffference between you and me: I have seen the difference. And I continue to attend other churches which rely on books, papers, and programs, and those Masses are very, very distracting & distracted.

I wasn’t very open (about this) before it happened, but once I saw the results (and because – only because it is handled so well at this church)-- I became a convert to it. As I already said, it’s an unusual situation. It’s the only one of 4 or 5 churches in my region which would be able to physically support such an arrangement without ‘major surgery’ to the church interior, which has decided to do it and which does it enormously successfully. I repeat: it is the single most reverent, quiet, focused Mass out of all of the many I have attended in my wide region, including very traditional (OF and EF) Latin Masses.
Reverence is an interior disposition that must be cultivated. It cannot be produced by posting large print on the walls.
I never said that a screen “produces” reverence? Where do you get these generalizations that you create as straw men to argue against? I said that a screen, when done professionally & thoughtfully, promotes reverence because it eliminates the fussing around which distracts individuals and their neighbors in the pews.

The bottom line is that you are arguing from guesses and theories. I am reporting evidence.
Active Participation does not mean singing or not singing.
I never once said that. In fact, had you bothered to search my other posts, you would see where on CAF I have said quite the opposite. I have discussed interior participation. But hey, this is just one more Straw Man for you to create so that you can oppose something you have never even seen, let alone see work extremely well.
I’m not telling you that you are wrong either…Current explanations are really pretty shallow.
Wow. (speaking of “shallow”) :rolleyes:

“Current explanations” have to do with one thing: Raw experience, before and after, within the very same church, and for more than 10 years.

Where is your counter-experience to “prove” your so-called theories?
 
Sorry, you have to look at the benefits as well. You can save money by not buying hymnals and many other things if you want to just look at costs saved. But I don’t think the OP was looking for a course in finance. And that’s all I’m going to say on this thread.
Fine, but you were challenging the COST of licensing fees to which I answered…then you went on to people falling asleep during a powerpoint. One doesn’t have anything to do with the other.

Projecting words to the song that the congregation is singing during the mass at some point is not a powerpoint “presentation” that one would be bored during. It’s assisting in particpating in the mass.

You could have just accepted that the cost (and if you needed proof, I could have gotten it) is definitely NOT an issue, in fact, thousands of dollars saved would be a big pro.
 
This will change. The Pope has called for an embracing of technology to evangelize. It’s only a matter of time before this particular little silly rule is changed to reflect more modern times. We are no longer in the age of rustling overheads, noisy (windy) projectors, and clicking noises. Modern overhead projection is pretty discreet nowadays.

Actually, what I think will come very soon is an App for an iPhone or droid that allows the Christian to download the Mass parts, music, readings, prayers, and even the local homily and announcments, and then follow along when he/she is at Mass. The print size would be adjustable to accomodate all of us. My husband already follows the readings in his droid. The rest will come. It’s probably already here, and I’m just behind the times.
Until revoked, rescinded, or explicitly altered, Musica Sacram has force of law. It absolutely forbids the practice of projectors, period.
 
Until revoked, rescinded, or explicitly altered, Musica Sacram has force of law. It absolutely forbids the practice of projectors, period.
Hmm. Since I haven’t looked into that document with regard to the practice of using screens, I certainly am not in a position to refute your claim at all. However, I must say that I would be surprised if such a prohibition rises to a serious degree of concern in all dioceses in the country. I know for a fact that our local bishop has visited the church in question (which I’ve discussed here); in fact he has visited it rather recently. I don’t know if he has personally said Mass at that church, but there would be about a 100% chance that he has personally visited the inside of the church, so he couldn’t have overlooked the gigantic screen there. And this local bishop is no rogue bishop; he is very traditional. It could be that given the excellent reports of the atmosphere in the liturgies there (and because the screen appeared long before he became bishop in the diocese), he has decided that there is no reason to enforce this particular prohibition in Musica Sacram in this diocese. I do not know.

Also, it would seem odd if other projectors in other churches (reported here on this thread) are not forbidden; rather, they are encouraged by various U.S. bishops as a means of communicating these bishops’ messages on a regular basis, to parishioners of these various dioceses. (It is not used for any other purpose than musical text in the parish I mentioned; and twice only it has been used to project images during missionary solicitations after Masses, per proper liturgical rubrics.)
 
Until revoked, rescinded, or explicitly altered, Musica Sacram has force of law. It absolutely forbids the practice of projectors, period.
Musica Sacram does not mention projectors.

I covered this in an earlier post. Disciplinary documents that are put out by the various Cardinals draw their authority from the living Pope. As this has not been addressed for half a century, and as many bishops allow overheads, I simply can not believe it is as black and white as you say.
 
You have zero basis for making such a statement because by your own admission you have never seen the Before and After at such a church. That’s the diffference between you and me: I have seen the difference. And I continue to attend other churches which rely on books, papers, and programs, and those Masses are very, very distracting & distracted.
I have witnessed both. I’m not really sure where I said by my own admission that I have not experienced this. I had a former pastor that set up a screen for the homily to instruct us. He’s at the Vatican now and is one of the most reverent priests I know. It is plainly evident that your assumption is in error.
I wasn’t very open (about this) before it happened, but once I saw the results (and because – only because it is handled so well at this church)-- I became a convert to it. As I already said, it’s an unusual situation. It’s the only one of 4 or 5 churches in my region which would be able to physically support such an arrangement without ‘major surgery’ to the church interior, which has decided to do it and which does it enormously successfully. I repeat: it is the single most reverent, quiet, focused Mass out of all of the many I have attended in my wide region, including very traditional (OF and EF) Latin Masses.
But this is anecdotal evidence at best and is strictly your opinion and personal preference. It is not a reasoned argument for that which you espouse.
I never said that a screen “produces” reverence? Where do you get these generalizations that you create as straw men to argue against? I said that a screen, when done professionally & thoughtfully, promotes reverence because it eliminates the fussing around which distracts individuals and their neighbors in the pews.
Produce/promote is semantics, the concept is the same. Either way, this is what the alleged distraction from reverence is from the main point. Reaching for a hymnal is fussing? Then so is reaching for the missalette. Is the act of doing what is necessary for the acts of worship so distracting that people can’t worship reverently. This seems like quite an excessive charge for so simple an act. Again I ask, why not post everything up there.
The bottom line is that you are arguing from guesses and theories. I am reporting evidence.
I have merely presented a logical argument that you have yet to address. Not a guess or a theory, merely a reasoned thought for your consideration. I am wondering the reason as to why you are so contentious in your replies.
… had you bothered to search my other posts,
I’m just going by what you said here. I can respond to what you have presented, There is no need to “research” you.
“Current explanations” have to do with one thing: Raw experience, before and after, within the very same church, and for more than 10 years.
Where is your counter-experience to “prove” your so-called theories?
I don’t need a counter-experience. I was just hoping that you could answer the question I proposed on its merits. However, counter-experience would include the last couple centuries where projections for the Mass did not exist. It could very well be argued against your experience that to other people, the existence of screens is a distraction as an affront to the architecture which also serves the purpose of raising the hearts and minds and souls towards reverence of God in worship. How can you be sure of everyone’s internal disposition will benefit to impose such an architectural change?

Elizabeth, Let’s try and keep this a friendly discussion. there’s is no need to devolve this into a counter productive sidetracked contest of this experience vs that experience. I have plenty of experience on both sides of this issue. I have asked a reasonable question. If all you wish to contribute is personal experience, that is fine, but it is not a reasoned argument to a proposed question.

Joe B
 
Just want to say, firstly, thank you for your discussion. It’s nice when neither party gets heated up and can actually discuss differences of opinion without feeling defensive or easily offended. 😉
You’re looking at this from your own viewpoint, and especially as a performer, and what I am telling you is that that is not the typical experience of the person in the pews (including the musically inclined).
I don’t think you meant it this way, but I want to make clear that I don’t look at it as a “performer” in the sense that most non-musicians view the term. I’m looking at it from a musician’s standpoint, which it much different from actually being a performer. When I’m on stage in an opera, I’m a musician and a performer in terms of acting. When I’m “performing” a recital or a chamber concert, I am a musician and only an instrument conveying the words of the music through my instrument. And when I am cantoring, I am praying the words through my instrument.
The projector works, as long (as I said) as those other things are in place. And given that (in my ‘perfect storm’ elements) the music is really good and the cantor is good, the people in the pews do not feel some perfectionistic obsession about singing every note, or fixating anxiously on something when they don’t need to, etc. It frees the average person, not paralyzes them. People are happy to join in where they can, and appreciate the sound of others when they cannot.

When this was being discussed at the one parish I am thinking of, a decision was made for the sake of the most rather than the sake of the few. (They knew that not 100% of the congregation would be perfectly satisfied. However, the truth was that it has come to be almost 100% embraced since inception.) Nevertheless, I’m sure that any individual who felt the need to lean on something in their hands, could go to the trouble to contact the cantor or music minister & obtain an individual copy of the body of work typically used. The decision for the screen as opposed to filling the pews with books was for the orientation of this congregation, which was toward a sense of freedom from struggle and self-absorption.
I think, as I believe you have basically said in so many words, is that this kind of thing depends on each individual parish and the perfect storm that has been discussed. Your parish is trying to make things more accessible for their congregation. Since I do not know your parish and have never been there, I trust your word that it has been successful. That said, having freelanced in more parishes than I can count in about 9 different states, I know there would only be a handful of those parishes which could possible make it work. The rest, including those couple of parishes which currently employ this practice that I’ve been to, it’s not successful. Part of it is most certainly the architecture, as these are churches built in the 1800s. Second, these areas are places where most prefer a more traditional setup. They are much like me in their thinking, although most do not have any musical background.

The one thing I am a bit perplexed by is how using a hymnal is distracting or causes one to feel perfectionistic or to have any kind of anxious fixation. I know a lot of people who aren’t musicians and sing at mass, yet I know they don’t feel anything described. They just sing. But again, perhaps that is your parish and the people in it. They are trying to reach and help their “target audience”, much like how in journalism they try to reach their “target audience” by writing at an 8th grade level, since most people have only that level of reading/writing comprehension. A bit sad, but the reality, unfortunately.

Now, would I want my child and any future children I may have grow up with that in their parish? Personally, no. I don’t want them to use it as a crutch and as an easy way out of not learning how to read music. Basically, I feel it is my responsibility to help the younger generations learn music so that we don’t have to completely rely on things like this. As discussed in other threads, if we start the music education with children either in Catholic schools, choirs, etc., it would stop this vicious cycle. But I’m also seeing that this is not just a problem within the Church. It is a problem outside of it. Without getting too off-topic, I think some of these uses and tools, although they are done with the best intentions and can possibly be successful, may be a result from a societal and cultural change. Today, most people hardly have time to breathe and take care of their families, let alone time to learn how to read music or other things in life. How many people have I known who lament never having the time to truly pray or work on their spiritual lives. Too many. Everything requires an instant result because of the world we live in. How using a hymnal is now someone difficult, cumbersome, problematic and a distraction for some congregations, seems to be a product of this change.

Again, this is just me and my personal opinion. I never really gave these projectors much thought at all until this thread. Anyway, I think I’ve said enough on this subject and expressed my opinion enough. Time to get back to actual living. haha! These forums are too addicting. Not good.
 
Until revoked, rescinded, or explicitly altered, Musica Sacram has force of law. It absolutely forbids the practice of projectors, period.
So you’re saying that Bishop Burke, along with my dear bishop, are both in the wrong? BOTH of these great bishops have it wrong?

Remember, my bishop has his doctorate in canon law. You’re saying he’s doing something against “law” to use screens to show his videos?
 
So you’re saying that Bishop Burke, along with my dear bishop, are both in the wrong? BOTH of these great bishops have it wrong?

Remember, my bishop has his doctorate in canon law. You’re saying he’s doing something against “law” to use screens to show his videos?
Cat, a lot of the times, bishops may not know everything that goes on in their dioceses. The prohibition against projectors, found in the document issued by Pope Pius XII has not been abrogated.

Projectors might work for Protestant services, but, they are not compatible with what happens in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Projectors are distracting and detracting. Protestant services only have the Word; we have both the Word and the Sacrifice.
 
So you’re saying that Bishop Burke, along with my dear bishop, are both in the wrong? BOTH of these great bishops have it wrong?

Remember, my bishop has his doctorate in canon law. You’re saying he’s doing something against “law” to use screens to show his videos?
No kidding. Now cardinal burke sent out the dvd to be played at EVERY church in the diocese, every year. He oversaw and financed the making of the video, as well as addressed the camera at the end, every year he was here.
 
No kidding. Now cardinal burke sent out the dvd to be played at EVERY church in the diocese, every year. He oversaw and financed the making of the video, as well as addressed the camera at the end, every year he was here.
I am confused and fear I may have missed something. Is the practice of making a video of this sort being argued as support for projectors being used during Mass for the purpose of replacing hymnals? They don’t seem like the same thing. Could not one argue, following this reasoning, that Cardinal Burke must also approve of using prerecorded homilies in place of actual homilies during Mass? I have been to several parishes that have played videos for promotional or educational purposes at the end of Mass, at the point when one might make announcements, but don’t see why this practice should be understood as approval of projected song lyrics. And such videos from Cardinal Burke seem no more persuasive in that regard.
 
Cat, a lot of the times, bishops may not know everything that goes on in their dioceses. The prohibition against projectors, found in the document issued by Pope Pius XII has not been abrogated.

Projectors might work for Protestant services, but, they are not compatible with what happens in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Projectors are distracting and detracting. Protestant services only have the Word; we have both the Word and the Sacrifice.
Hmmm…I might take your word for it…but probably not. Aren’t you the same one arguing against Amazing Grace? So…ya…probably not just your word…:hmmm:

I don’t find it the least bit distracting…especially how it is done at the early Mass…and dispite what you say…our priest is a great homilist. And I spent 20 years as a Protestant…I know what those projections and power points look like…this isn’t it.
 
I am confused and fear I may have missed something. Is the practice of making a video of this sort being argued as support for projectors being used during Mass for the purpose of replacing hymnals? They don’t seem like the same thing…I have been to several parishes that have played videos for promotional or educational purposes at the end of Mass, at the point when one might make announcements, but don’t see why this practice should be understood as approval of projected song lyrics.
The paragraph in question from De Musica Sacra is as follows:
  1. The use of any kind of projector, and particularly movie projectors, with or without sound track, is strictly forbidden in church for any reason, even if it be for a pious, religious, or charitable cause.
The first thing I notice, that I hadn’t seen before, is that no allowance is made for use of a projector in church even outside of mass. By suggesting that video projection is acceptable not just after mass, but actually during mass, so long as it is during the announcements, you and others seem to disregard De Musica Sacra . But you’re in good company. If a bishop is making video recordings for the entire diocese to watch on Sunday, he either wants them all to decamp to the parish hall after mass for a viewing party, or he doesn’t accept that De Musica Sacra carries the force of law.

If you or others want to argue that projected lyrics and music are a bad idea in and of themselves, that is a matter of opinion that can be argued on its own merits. But if you seek shelter and support for your argument from De Musica Sacra, that fig leaf has long since wilted.
 
My two cents. Our bishop, orthodox and strict as he is, regularly distributes DVDs to parishes to be played during the Mass on projectors. My equally orthodox and liturgically strict pastor dutifully plays these DVDs during the homily portion of the Mass. It seems to me that our bishop is making a lawful order and our pastor is obeying and carrying out that order. I guarantee you that the bishop is 100% aware of this practice. Also, just this past week a guest speaker was permitted to say a few words and she was scheduled into the “announcements” section of the Mass between the after-communion prayer and the final blessing. So showing these DVDs during the homily must be an intentional act on their part. Furthermore, I know of a parish in another part of the diocese that was custom-built with retractable projection screens in the sanctuary itself. Surely the bishop would not have authorized such a construction if projectors are verboten.

If people here are going to be so adamant about the prohibition of projection equipment then I can inquire with my pastor, but I really hate to bother him on such a liturgical nitpick when I can ordinarily trust that he does the right thing and I have never seen a liturgical abuse under his watch.

By the way, a completely technical nitpick, but many of you have been using the term “overhead projector” to refer to projectors in general. Only a certain type of projector is “overhead,” it refers to a transparent slide projector that has a mirror+lens assembly above a light box. These were frequently used for transparent-slide business presentations, and in schools, and have experienced a decline in use. Ordinary slide and movie and LCD projectors are not typically “overhead” style.
 
Cat, a lot of the times, bishops may not know everything that goes on in their dioceses. The prohibition against projectors, found in the document issued by Pope Pius XII has not been abrogated.

Projectors might work for Protestant services, but, they are not compatible with what happens in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Projectors are distracting and detracting. Protestant services only have the Word; we have both the Word and the Sacrifice.
So you’re saying that Bishop Burke had no idea what was going on in the Cathedral in St. Louis, not the old Cathedral down by the river, but the big, ornate Cathedral, the one that Pope John Paul II visited while he was in the U.S.? The one that conducts tours throughout the day for hundreds of visitors from around the world?

I can see your point if we were talking about some itty bitty Catholic church in some obscure part of the Diocese. But the Cathedral!..I’m pretty certain that Bishop Burke stayed on top of things there.

As for our bishop being on top of things–oh, yes, yes, he is very much on top of what is going on in our diocese. He’s intelligent to the max–he has to be, living here, where every day brings a new challenge to the Catholic Church. I only regret that he is retiring and we will have a replacement. I’m sure it will work out, but I think we will miss his wisdom and stature.
 
Cat, a lot of the times, bishops may not know everything that goes on in their dioceses. The prohibition against projectors, found in the document issued by Pope Pius XII has not been abrogated.
Again, Projectors are not mentioned in Musica Sacra. This is the only document Pope Pius issued on the subject. I will link it one more time. In today’s age, a simple search will clear this up. I think AB Burke and others know what they are doing.

vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_25121955_musicae-sacrae_en.html
 
  1. The use of any kind of projector, and particularly movie projectors, with or without sound track, is strictly forbidden in church for any reason, even if it be for a pious, religious, or charitable cause.
Wow! The Catholic church has rules for everything. 😛

When was this document released?
 
How do you know this? Have you included the royalty fees for the copyrighted material needed? Would the benefits exceed the costs?
How many hymns have royalties? I’m pretty sure they are public domain by now, considering the authors have been deceased for hundreds of years.
 
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