Prolonged Abstinence in Marriage

[Viki63]

In all seriousness, what I really meant is that I don’t feel like I am “in love” with my wife, nor she with me. I certainly do love her, and express that love daily; and she loves me and expresses it too. But I love my mother and my daughters and my sister too; in my marriage I’m hoping for - even expecting - something more or other than the love I have for those dear ones. And the main thing that differentiates marital love (the feeling/attraction as opposed to the act of the will) is sex. Now I will be the first to say that feeling “in love” is not necessary for marriage. However, who of us would say that it isn’t better to be “in love” with your spouse? . . . .I’d still like to hear any thoughts about the nature of prolonged abstinence itself and how to understand/deal with it in marriage.

As I recall being in love, it was more or less like having the flu: a raging obsession that took over my thoughts, filled my waking hours with thoughts of the beloved, and was exhausting. It lasted a few weeks or months into my marriage, I don’t recall, but it would have been impossible to live a rational life under those conditions.
That may not be what you mean by being in love with your wife. But you know that for most of history, being “in love” was not expected or desired. Look at St Thomas Moore, who (as I understand it ) married the oldest sister though he cared for the younger, and learned to appreciate and love his wife out of duty.
We have an abstinent marriage, because of my husband’s medical condition. I offer my abstinence to our Lord in reparation for my sins and those of others. It is a small thing to give up, since I have no choice but divorce, and it helps to recall all our Lord gave up and suffered for us.
My husband and I are affectionate and respectful to one another for the most part. We try to put God first in our marriage.
I suggest that your wife gets a checkup from her doctor, and see what he has to say. It doesn’t sound like you have any real reason to be abstinent, except that she is feeling ill and fatigued.
God bless.

 

[nancymarie]

As someone whose marriage was sexless for decades, I can tell you it is devastating when one spouse feels rejected, unattractive and unloved because the other (in this case my husband), does not seem to need or want intimacy.

I believe lack of desire for this kind of closeness signals serious problems in a marriage. It caused me to become depressed and lose self-esteem. My husband could not or would not seek help to change.

Sex should be part of a healthy, loving marriage. It doesn’t even have to be great. Just enough to let the other know you desire closeness and that you truly find them attractive.

 

[KostyaJMJ]

Do you sleep in the other room so as not to tantalize her, or have her approach you and get rejected? I’ve been where you are with avoiding any physical contact so that it won’t be interpreted in a sexual way. My husband noticed that I stopped telling him “Good night,” because I was afraid he would turn over, start to cuddle and then want sex. I mean, that’s terrible, right? But I did not want to go through the pain of explaining why I was tired, wasn’t in the mood, was angry, etc. and then having him get angry at me.

I know it drives him crazy. But we just don’t intersect that much any more - he’s gone for 2 weeks out of every month, and then when he comes back he’s jet lagged and goes to bed at like 8 p.m. and gets up at 3 a.m. It absolutely makes our relationship very very difficult, and since we were having problems before all this traveling, it sure hasn’t helped.

He has way more interest in sex than I do at this point. I feel sad that he can’t understand my point of view and he is frustrated that I can’t just be the way I used to be. I mean, we were never that well-matched since I think he’s way over-sexed and I am more normal, but I’m sure he feels that I am pathetically under-sexed and he is the normal one.

Well, I will stop before I hijack the OP’s thread. This is a very pertinent subject for me. It’s the one issue that might cause my husband to divorce me.

One of us has to set the rules and she has never rejected me in her life.

When we had to abstain because she was on pelvic rest it was easy and we stayed in the same room, but with her being healthy enough for another pregnancy it is much more difficult. She says that I do it because I simply want her to take birth control pills. We’ve been talking about it a lot lately. We both agree we are done with NFP, so if she is even able to get pregnant then it is either roll the dice or abstain.

 

[AnneTeresa]

Greetings,
What helps me personally is attending mass as often as possible, the rosary and other devotions to the Blessed Mother, and eucharistic adoration. Mary has helped our marriage in miraculous ways in the past, and I trust she can again. However, does it take a miracle to survive this? Is that normal?
ld

I am in a situation of abstinence in marriage too, and yes, I do think it takes kind of a miracle – or at least supernatural help – to deal with it. At least it has for me. I do all the things you mention and I still struggle with it.

Lately what I’ve tried doing is reading all the stuff that’s out there for teenagers or young people who have been sexual but want to stop. It is sort of funny odd but it does give me some ideas (I am in my 50s).

One thing I’ve been told to do (and I’m working on it) is find other ways to show physical affection that aren’t sexual. That takes some creative thinking on my part as I’m not used to doing that. But it’s probably good for me in a way too. Anyway, not much help here but I do emphathize.

 

[ldavid]

Quickly… I’m sure you love your mother and sister… but doubt you want to have sex with them

Sounds like you still would like to have sex with your wife… so if that helps you define marital love… I have a feeling your still in it…

Point taken.

Further,… age 44… Perimenopause isn’t really something she “thinks” she’s in…You could safely bet your next paycheck that she IS in perimenopause… and probably has been the last 5+ years. It starts in the late 30’s…

I may not be using the right term. What I mean is that she has stopped ovulating/bleeding, and we are waiting for signs of ovulation or another period. I thought “menopause” meant the time when a woman no longer ovulates, and “perimenopause” was the time of transition from ovulating each month, to menopause. I could be wrong. I think most people use “menopause” to refer to the transition not the end of it.

Probably worth talking to and NFP doctor about. And also, perhaps having her hormones checked. Just 'cause she’s in perimenopause, doesn’t mean that she has to suffer a crazy cycle and such. It can be helped with hormones (natural or synthetic) and NOT ABC…

Not sure what you mean by “helped” but as I understand it (and as we practice it) NFP requires tracking ovulation (either predicting it in advance or identifying it when it happens, we do both). As such, if there is no ovulation, we have to abstain until there is. The predictive element is now unreliable since her cycles are off, so all we have is identifying ovulation when it happens.

Also, it seems that she could be tested to see if her egg quality is even any good or abundant… check into the reality of that…

Hadn’t thought of that, will investigate. She has been very fertile in the past. I.e. we conceived within a few months of her cycles starting after breastfeeding in the past.

Thanks for the helpful ideas.

ld

 

[ldavid]

I’m not sure I understand- is the primary reason you don’t have sex is because she hasn’t ovulated and is in perimenopause?

Yes.

Others have misunderstood this too. Maybe I was too vague. Let me be clear now. We are abstaining now because my wife has stopped ovulating/bleeding. Whatever is going on in her body - perimenopause, menopause, temporary glitch in her otherwise regular cycles - since we use NFP, we must abstain until we get evidence of ovulation. It’s true we have lots of other troubles, like most people, but those are secondary in this context and are NOT the reason for our current prolonged abstinence.

I find alot of these answers strange and disheartening. I think it is wrong to downplay the importance of sex in a marriage. I know that if there is a reason such as an actual physical inability to have sex, that a marriage might have to be sexless and one is to still remain faithful. Sex is an important part of marriage and a distinguishing characteristic of marital love. Maybe you would feel “in love” with your wife if you “make love” with your wife.

This is my gut reaction too, though as a relatively new convert, I don’t trust my gut to determine truth or apply Church teaching. It sure “seems” like a marriage should be a happy sexual relationship (among other things of course), and that a sexless marriage “isn’t right”. But I would not claim that; I just don’t know.

ld

 

[larsenl1]

It sure “seems” like a marriage should be a happy sexual relationship (among other things of course), and that a sexless marriage “isn’t right”. But I would not claim that; I just don’t know.

ld

It seemed like your original question was if a marriage could withstand a prolonged period of abstinence and I guess I did not get the feeling that most of us responding downplayed the role of sex in marriage. I have read every response. Many of us are in a marriage where one partner has a greater sex drive than the other and therefore periods that are dry are more difficult for one spouse.

Sex is a very important part of a healthy marriage. I guess what I am trying to say is that my marriage is still pretty darn good even though I’m not getting any sex. I was attempting to give you hope rather than dismal comments that without sex you would grow so far apart as to be strangers. Sex is much more meaningful when you also have intimacy that is not physical. Otherwise it is just a transaction.

Hang in there. Your wife’s female situation will resolve itself. What does her gynie say? When was the last time she had a pelvic exam?

 

[FatherOfTwelve]

Dave,
I’m not one to give out advice. But I hear your concerns. I’m 47, my wife 41 (yea cradle robber, I know), we have twelve children and our first grandbaby is in the womb (due July22). So I can relate on multiple levels with you. I’m a former Protestant/Deacon (not pastor)/Taught EE/ young mens bible study/ was 40 (years in the desert) until I came into the church. Probably do as many dishes as yourself…

I just want you to know that I will be praying for you.

Eph 5: 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water …

Sacrifice is something as protestants we we’re never taught to embrace, offer it up brother.
God Bless,
Doug

 

[ldavid]

I’ll put my two cents in - NFP was the BIGGEST turn off for me as a wife! I’ll catch heat for saying this but consider condoms it will allow you to be together when the mood and timing allow but it won’t abort if you do convice.

I don’t think removing sex from a marriage is wise or healthy. I think catholics who do only play to “Catholics are only happy when they are miserable”.

Thanks for your honesty; and I see that you did catch some heat for it! I completely understand your point of view, and based on my life experiences, I would not judge a person or couple who used condoms. God will do that, with perfect mercy and justice that I don’t even comprehend let alone have, and I’m thankful to not have to worry about it.

As for NFP, my wife and I pretty much hate it. It has taken a very fragile sexual relationship and basically crushed it into lifeless dust (perhaps a bit melodramatic, but I’m the “oversexed, non-normal one”). Even my wife, with the “normal” (or “non-existent”, depending on your chromosomes) sex drive, doesn’t like the frequency - i.e. its too little for her. As I said in a previous post, with busy family and work schedules (80 hrs/wk for me, close to that for her as mom of 8 and student), we got between 0 and 4 times a month, on average. (I say “got” because now we are in indefinite abstinence because of menopause, so we ain’t “gettin” nuthin no mo’.) It’s awful and it often makes me wonder if I completely misunderstand the Catholic view of sex and marriage. There is lip-service to the “unitive purpose” and declaration that sex is good, but the real axiom seems to be “most people will be abstinent most of the time, so get used to it” (just do the arithmetic).

I also agree with your assessment that Catholics in sexless marriages who suffer visibly for it reinforce the stereotype that Catholics are unhappy and anti-sex. How can they not? I know I do, and I hate that. I am so depressed sometimes that it startles people - I see the reaction on their faces and realize I’m scowling or frowning unconsciously. Often the only comfort I have is that sooner than later I’ll be dead and done with the whole stupid farce. It is definitely purgatorial - absurd even - to live with, sleep with, be naked with the “wife of my youth” and not be able to touch her (it’s pretty much all or nothing for me). As a single man I used to think married guys had it so much easier - ha! Walk in the park compared to now - lived alone (or with other guys), slept alone; no naked ladies walking around my bedroom, etc. Abstinence in marriage is 10 times harder than in singleness (for me anyway), and I thought it was unbearable then, haha.

This could be another post altogether - “how is it supposed to be” re: sex and marriage in the Catholic view. I’ve read some “marriage” books, and am working through Love and Responsibility and TOTB (even took a class on it with my wife), but I still don’t get it when the rubber hits the road. So I’ll leave that for another time…

To those who are curious where I (and my wife) stand re: condoms, we believe the Church teaches that condoms and all other forms of contraception are an evil means, which even if used for a good purpose, are therefore illicit. I.e., it ain’t gonna happen. In particular I reason that I can’t use condoms and remain Catholic - I have to choose which I want more, and at this point I want to be Catholic more than I want to have a (good) sex life. That’s what it really comes down to, as others have pointed out. I can’t divorce and go find a “hot bunny” as my wife would say, and remain Catholic. Right now that’s what I want more than anything else. I can imagine what it would be like not to however, and I pray for mercy that I will never be in that position.

So thanks again for the honesty and God bless you on your journey; but I can’t take your path right now, much as I understand it and may like to.

ld

 

[ldavid]

Absolutely NO ONE who has responded is downplaying the importance of sex in a marriage! Either we are in the wife’s position, or we are in the husband’s position, and neither place is comfortable or easy in any way. We would all like to have strong and fulfilling sex lives! We all know that marital union is strengthened by sexual intercourse.

This is relatively minor, but I had to respond - my wife says this too. In particular that she wants a strong, fulfilling, happy, whatever, sex life too. However there is no evidence at all of this desire in her life, so I take her statement mostly as a deflection - a way to deny that she just doesn’t care that much about sex per se. She loves me, and occasionally enjoys sex, but for the most part she can take it or leave it. She is perfectly content to never have sex. I say that not as an accusation or suggesting there’s anything wrong with that (I wish I were like that!); its just the way she is. Fine, just don’t say it’s not, i.e., don’t say you want something you really don’t. I say that to her, of course; I’m not saying that to you. I don’t know you and even if I did I wouldn’t say that. But this may give some husbandly perspective inasmuch as this is a common back-and-forth among spouses.

Eventually, if we live that long, most of us won’t be chasing each other around the nursing home!

As if that’s supposed to be comforting? I don’t get it. I’m a jackleg musician and I wrote a silly song for my wife once that had the following (non silly) bridge:

Promise to love me come what may,
When I kiss you turn away,
Keep your love locked down for years til there’s none left,
Change your heart when it’s too late,
Offer up what’s left like an empty plate,
Remind me of what I never had for the rest of my life

Needless to say I never sang it for her, though it is more or less what I have experienced and expect to in the future. If I make it to a nursing home I won’t be sitting in my wheelchair laughing about how I’m not chasing my wife around, but I can see myself trying hard not to bitterly mourn the loss of what was right before me for decades, but never within my reach.

Anyway, I know you’re trying to be helpful and I’m sorry if I came across as mean or grumpy.

ld

 

[ktmeyer]

Point taken

Not sure what you mean by “helped” but as I understand it (and as we practice it) NFP requires tracking ovulation (either predicting it in advance or identifying it when it happens, we do both). As such, if there is no ovulation, we have to abstain until there is. The predictive element is now unreliable since her cycles are off, so all we have is identifying ovulation when it happens.

ld

Does she track her cervical fluid? That is the best way to predict ovulation is getting close. If she isn’t having any fertile quality cervical fluid then you should be fine to have sex, without pregnancy. Sperm needs that fluid to survive and travel. It sounds like you may need to talk to someone experienced in NFP.

Katie

 

[ktmeyer]

Thanks for your honesty; and I see that you did catch some heat for it! I completely understand your point of view, and based on my life experiences, I would not judge a person or couple who used condoms. God will do that, with perfect mercy and justice that I don’t even comprehend let alone have, and I’m thankful to not have to worry about it.

As for NFP, my wife and I pretty much hate it. It has taken a very fragile sexual relationship and basically crushed it into lifeless dust (perhaps a bit melodramatic, but I’m the “oversexed, non-normal one”). Even my wife, with the “normal” (or “non-existent”, depending on your chromosomes) sex drive, doesn’t like the frequency - i.e. its too little for her. As I said in a previous post, with busy family and work schedules (80 hrs/wk for me, close to that for her as mom of 8 and student), we got between 0 and 4 times a month, on average. (I say “got” because now we are in indefinite abstinence because of menopause, so we ain’t “gettin” nuthin no mo’.) It’s awful and it often makes me wonder if I completely misunderstand the Catholic view of sex and marriage. There is lip-service to the “unitive purpose” and declaration that sex is good, but the real axiom seems to be “most people will be abstinent most of the time, so get used to it” (just do the arithmetic).

I also agree with your assessment that Catholics in sexless marriages who suffer visibly for it reinforce the stereotype that Catholics are unhappy and anti-sex. How can they not? I know I do, and I hate that. I am so depressed sometimes that it startles people - I see the reaction on their faces and realize I’m scowling or frowning unconsciously. Often the only comfort I have is that sooner than later I’ll be dead and done with the whole stupid farce. It is definitely purgatorial - absurd even - to live with, sleep with, be naked with the “wife of my youth” and not be able to touch her (it’s pretty much all or nothing for me). As a single man I used to think married guys had it so much easier - ha! Walk in the park compared to now - lived alone (or with other guys), slept alone; no naked ladies walking around my bedroom, etc. Abstinence in marriage is 10 times harder than in singleness (for me anyway), and I thought it was unbearable then, haha.

This could be another post altogether - “how is it supposed to be” re: sex and marriage in the Catholic view. I’ve read some “marriage” books, and am working through Love and Responsibility and TOTB (even took a class on it with my wife), but I still don’t get it when the rubber hits the road. So I’ll leave that for another time…

To those who are curious where I (and my wife) stand re: condoms, we believe the Church teaches that condoms and all other forms of contraception are an evil means, which even if used for a good purpose, are therefore illicit. I.e., it ain’t gonna happen. In particular I reason that I can’t use condoms and remain Catholic - I have to choose which I want more, and at this point I want to be Catholic more than I want to have a (good) sex life. That’s what it really comes down to, as others have pointed out. I can’t divorce and go find a “hot bunny” as my wife would say, and remain Catholic. Right now that’s what I want more than anything else. I can imagine what it would be like not to however, and I pray for mercy that I will never be in that position.

So thanks again for the honesty and God bless you on your journey; but I can’t take your path right now, much as I understand it and may like to.

ld

I REALLY think you need to retake a class on NFP, or find some other books on the subject. I think you are underestimating her safe days.

Katie

 

[whm]

David I think you need to have more communication with your wife. It sounds like the uncertainty is driving you nuts. It would be easier if you knew that it was over, then you could take steps to live that way. But the mixed messages, being around her undressed etc. is sending your body and your mind conflicting signals and creating a lot of frustration.

It is so difficult to take that advice though. These days it makes you feel like there is something wrong with you to desire sex. The fact is you both have a right to each other. There may be reasons to not exercise that right, but you should not feel guilty for desiring it as long as it is not an unjust lustful desire.

If as some have suggested, she may be feeling like you are not romantic, helpful enough etc. She owes it to you to express that and you owe it to her to hear her out. It is also important for both to understand that in an abstinence situation sometime the man lowers the romance not because he isn’t getting sex (although this is sometimes the case too), but because he wants to suppress his sex drive. This is often misinterpreted as lack of respect for the other spouses needs/feelings etc. Best to keep this out in the open and not to let it fester.

I don’t disagree that NFP can make this situation worse (particularly if there is bad communication). However, NFP is not the norm, it is an alternative to abstinence. I think you should be constantly discussing why you are using NFP, to discern if it is still justified and/or remind you why you are abstaining. Also if you are using NFP, you may as well get proper training it! It has improved quite a bit over the last 10 years or so, and it is my understanding that a good coach is essential.

btw I ought to take my own advice

 

[faithfully]

Point taken.

I may not be using the right term. What I mean is that she has stopped ovulating/bleeding, and we are waiting for signs of ovulation or another period. I thought “menopause” meant the time when a woman no longer ovulates, and “perimenopause” was the time of transition from ovulating each month, to menopause. I could be wrong. I think most people use “menopause” to refer to the transition not the end of it.

No,perimenopause is the transition, ie the time period, from having normal regular cycles to actual menopause, MEANING, if she’s in perimenopause, she’s symptomatic as described in the link. Perimenopause can last 10 years. People don’t generally know that. Menopause, is in face the end of all menses.

Not sure what you mean by “helped” but as I understand it (and as we practice it) NFP requires tracking ovulation (either predicting it in advance or identifying it when it happens, we do both). As such, if there is no ovulation, we have to abstain until there is. The predictive element is now unreliable since her cycles are off, so all we have is identifying ovulation when it happens.

What I mean by helped, is that you need to figure out what stage she’s really in. Not what she or you think. Whether or not she’s ovulating or not. A vaginal ultrasound can show if there is any egg development. It’s VERY CLEAR. Granted, it’s not like anyone is going to get an ultrasound on a regular basis… (wouldn’t that be cool though???) . She may need some hormone supplementation. So for example, you physically have the urge for sex. That’s because YOUR hormones are balanced and doing well. In fact, since you’re only in your 40’s, you might consider that the next 20 years your testosterone levels will naturally drop. Guess what that’s going to do to your desire, and ABILITY to perform? She appears to have zero urge??? That’s because she’s not getting the release of hormone that (this is my GUESS) that says, hey, egg about to drop, get the goods!" Either that or she has an emotional block. Like even though, as you mentioned she’s healthy enough for another PG, does she WANT to get PG again? Have her PGs? been easy or hard in the past? Is it worth the risk to her?

Hadn’t thought of that, will investigate. She has been very fertile in the past. I.e. we conceived within a few months of her cycles starting after breastfeeding in the past.

Well, all good things must come to an end. Menopause can be very difficult for some women. And for others a breeze. It’s very odd. Personally, I think you’ll find that emotional support of your wife through these times will keep her looking at you in awe… and with love. And when her body normalizes a bit, all else can get back to normal. I know a lot of people think she’s nutz, but I now recommend reading Suzanne Sommer’s Book Breakthrough. She talks about natural care for the body, with regard to hormones. Interestingly, she’s against ABC, not for religious reasons, but because they are so destructive to our bodies… worth a library check out…

Thanks for the helpful ideas.

ld

In the end, I think it’s worth determining the root cause for lack of sex. Fear of PG, body feels bad, she’s mad at you… whatever, and address it. In theory, you should be back on track!

 

[TheRealJuliane]

This is relatively minor, but I had to respond - my wife says this too. In particular that she wants a strong, fulfilling, happy, whatever, sex life too. However there is no evidence at all of this desire in her life, so I take her statement mostly as a deflection - a way to deny that she just doesn’t care that much about sex per se. She loves me, and occasionally enjoys sex, but for the most part she can take it or leave it. She is perfectly content to never have sex. I say that not as an accusation or suggesting there’s anything wrong with that (I wish I were like that!); its just the way she is. Fine, just don’t say it’s not, i.e., don’t say you want something you really don’t. I say that to her, of course; I’m not saying that to you. I don’t know you and even if I did I wouldn’t say that. But this may give some husbandly perspective inasmuch as this is a common back-and-forth among spouses.

As if that’s supposed to be comforting? I don’t get it. I’m a jackleg musician and I wrote a silly song for my wife once that had the following (non silly) bridge:

Promise to love me come what may,
When I kiss you turn away,
Keep your love locked down for years til there’s none left,
Change your heart when it’s too late,
Offer up what’s left like an empty plate,
Remind me of what I never had for the rest of my life

Needless to say I never sang it for her, though it is more or less what I have experienced and expect to in the future. If I make it to a nursing home I won’t be sitting in my wheelchair laughing about how I’m not chasing my wife around, but I can see myself trying hard not to bitterly mourn the loss of what was right before me for decades, but never within my reach.

Anyway, I know you’re trying to be helpful and I’m sorry if I came across as mean or grumpy.

ld

Well I am sorry that you feel your wife isn’t telling you the truth. I know how much it means to my husband and I want to be able to enjoy a sexual relationship with him. There are so many other factors in our case. But you sound bitter and resentful even though she tells you that she DOES want things to be better.

I don’t see why you think your wife doesn’t want to be close with you. The woman has EIGHT CHILDREN and is a full-time student!!! I had 2 kids and have mostly been home with them and I’m burned out!!! So imagine what your wife has gone through! Maybe she does want a fulfilling sexual relationship but has just had too much on her plate for too long. You are also working a ton of hours so when do you have time to just be together, relaxed, with no agenda? Women need INTIMACY and talking in order to feel a connection and to want sex, and we need it consistently.

What I hear over and over again is YOUR needs and YOUR desires but it doesn’t seem that you are acknowledging that your wife might have physical/psychological/spiritual needs that aren’t being met, that have been neglected or put aside, or there are hidden resentments or depression that need to be dealt with. What about the timing of these encounters? We can’t find a time when one of our sons isn’t home and nearby, or it’s nighttime and we’re both tired. I don’t like early morning encounters. The middle of the day would be good, but he doesn’t like to leave work. Simple things like real life getting in the way are a huge factor too.

The nursing home comment was meant as a joke. You are younger than I am but I get really peeved at the Viagra or Cialis commercials on TV - I think it is natural for our sex drive to decline as we age and stuff happens to women’s bodies that makes it more difficult for us to enjoy sex like we did when we were young - yet here is a drug that makes men like they are 20 years old again!!! Yippee! He’s gonna want to bang all night and I will be in the emergency room the next day!! No, I think what happens more often than not is that the man goes elsewhere because he thinks “Oh, I’m young and studly again!” and his wife is not interested in being 20 again, so he goes out to find the young bit of fluff who can keep up with his 4 hour erections. It’s just wrong. Why can’t we let nature take its course instead of keeping mens’ expectations of being teenagers forever??

Anyway, that’s another subject entirely, I can just see the Viagra crowd at the nursing home too…“O no, Mr. Johnson’s had his little blue bills, ladies, better lock your doors tonight!!!”

 

[ldavid]

Does she track her cervical fluid? That is the best way to predict ovulation is getting close. If she isn’t having any fertile quality cervical fluid then you should be fine to have sex, without pregnancy. Sperm needs that fluid to survive and travel. It sounds like you may need to talk to someone experienced in NFP.

Katie

I honestly don’t know everything she does. We have not had a formal class, but have learned from different people informally over many years. She is a naturopath (in training) and so also uses techniques (like muscle testing) that vary from non-traditional to wacky, depending on your point of view. Her main tool is an electronic fertility monitor that uses urine sticks. She also checks cervial mucous (don’t know if that’s the same as cervical fluid) and charts/counts days in her cycles (she used to be very regular).

We talk about taking an NFP class but they are too expensive for us and they are usually scheduled at times we can’t attend - I work days and nights during the week, and all day Sat. and Sun., and she is driving kids everywhere, etc.

I have heard others say that sperm cannot survive more than 24 hrs or so in “non-fertile” cervical mucous, but I also saw a post somewhere (maybe on this forum) from a man who said he had 2 children as evidence to the contrary. So I’m not sure who/what to believe, and we really don’t want to have another child. My wife was gung-ho, evangelistic, homebirth-with-a-midwife momma bear who wanted all the “gifts” God would give us for 17 years. Then after number 8 she just changed on a dime and said, “that’s it”. To which I said, “no problem, you’re a hero already for the 8 we have”. Besides we were really struggling financially by then anyway. So we are very cautious and take no chances.

Someone else said NFP is not the norm, but an alternative to abstinence, suggesting the norm is sex with the possibility of conception, or abstinence. That itself is pretty mind-blowing, but it does sound correct based on my understanding of Church teaching and history. So healthy couples will either have one baby after another until menopause (who can afford to do this let alone physically do it?) or be completely abstinent; this is the norm? I realize you could mix it up - have a few babies, abstain for a few years, have another, abstain, etc. But still, this is so far from what “feels” right that it is quite alarming. I know that what feels right is not always what is right, but I’m not talking about a selfish, lustful feeling here, but a deep heartfelt longing.

Maybe we’re not using NFP to its full potential, but unless there are highly reliable techniques we don’t know about that work even during (peri)menopause, I don’t know if it will work for us. Maybe it would be better to say we’re using a combination of NFP (when its highly accurate/reliable) and abstinence (when NFP is too risky).

I will try to find the answer to the question how long sperm can live in non-fertile mucous (if there is such a thing), and if there are reliable techniques to predict ovulation during irregular cycles. My guess is that there are not, at least not with the kind of reliability we need. 60, 70, 80% sure not to conceive is no good for us. We need 95, 96, 97%.

Anyway, thanks for trying to help. If anyone has any documented answers to these questions I’m all ears.

ld

 

[faithfully]

So this site talks a bit about the affects of perimenopause on fertilty

affects o fertility IGNORE the part about birth control as a necessity (secular view obviously)… but interesting none the less.

And this one just has some REALLY interesting info… about perimenopause I’ll be forwarding this to several people. I was unaware of many of the natural ways to solve some problems… You might find the 2nd article quite interesting with regard to FSH hormone… (DW, could get that tested… that could easily add some assurance???)

This happens to be the stage My doctor agrees that I’m in… So, your inquiry has led me to more research…

I have a feeling the more YOU know and understand about all of this, the better you’re going to feel about this part of your marital journey together. It’s my understanding that with NFP, DH is supposed to be quite the partner, and know what’s going on. It’s a TEAM thing. I’m sure being new to Catholicism, in addition to using NFP is a bit over whelming perhaps feeling like a bit more than you signed up for.

Keep praying that you’ll be guided to the information that will put you both at ease, and hopefully into each others arms more often…

 

[onmyknees]

Well, I just wanted to give you hope because you said that you don’t want to get older and then be too old to enjoy sex. When your wife reaches menopause you will be able to enjoy sex without all the worries of having another child, unless one of you becomes ill. I know it is hard now for you but hang in there.

My dh and I had it really good after menopause until I was diagnosed with an inflammatory condition which makes intercourse excruciatingly painful. We only get to be together this way now about once a week so I can heal. I miss the frequent, painless relations with my dh.
My mother told me that she and my dad enjoyed marital relations into their mid-seventies. My dad became ill at this time.

 

[ktmeyer]

I honestly don’t know everything she does. We have not had a formal class, but have learned from different people informally over many years. She is a naturopath (in training) and so also uses techniques (like muscle testing) that vary from non-traditional to wacky, depending on your point of view. Her main tool is an electronic fertility monitor that uses urine sticks. She also checks cervial mucous (don’t know if that’s the same as cervical fluid) and charts/counts days in her cycles (she used to be very regular).

ld

This website/book has a lot of information: tcoyf.com/

It was my understanding that it is virtually impossible to get pregnant without fertile cervical mucous. Plus, that mucous is the best way to tell if you are about to ovulate. If she normally has wet mucous before ovulating, and now is not having any, then she isn’t about to ovulate. Just enjoy yourselves until she starts having fertile mucous, then abstain until after she ovulates. There is a lot of info in that book about irregular cycles, and on the fertilityfriend website as well. I use the cervical mucous method of charting because I’m nursing so I have irregular cycles. So far 1 year without a baby

Katie

Katie

 

[kwray]

Hi there,

Just a few points to ponder:
-Waiting until ovulation occurs to have sex is not the best idea during perimenopause. The reason (as I’m sure you’re discovering) is that ovulation is going to occur less and less frequently, and you end up abstaining a lot when your wife is actually less fertile. It’s really important to be able to make a positive identification of infertility. Up till now (and this is really common with NFP couples), you’ve likely been using a positive identification of fertility (either mucus signs/temperature or both) to indicate when intercourse was safe (ie. wait x number of days after ovulation). It’s time now to learn how to identify infertility independent of ovulation. To do this, you will need to work with an accredited instructor. Contact representatives of whatever NFP method you’ve been using to see how they can help. This uncertainty about her fertility may be a significant reason why your wife is not interested in sex.

-Some posters above indicated hormonal therapy… be very cautious about using that type of treatment unless your wife is having very serious symptoms associated with menopause, or you have ruled out all other non-medical reasons why her sex drive might be low (ie. stress, fatigue, fear of possible pregnancy, marital issues etc.) Cycle irregularity at this stage of life is normal, and doesn’t need to be fixed with hormone treatment. Again, an NFP instructor can help the two of you determine if your wife’s chart is normal for her stage of life, or if she needs to seek medical advice.

-Finally, I just wanted to encourage you to continue to work on your marriage - and I don’t mean just the two of you remaining roommates. Sex is an important part of marriage, and you shouldn’t just give up on it. It’s worth taking the time to work through these issues with your wife, so you can not be, as you said, living in Purgatory continuously. My husband and I have also lived with extended periods of abstinence due to health issues, and lack of interest due to alienation/other factors. We have made a commitment not to let that part of our marriage just fall by the wayside. It has been very difficult, and we still have a long way to go, but things are improving. One prayer that someone told me that has been really helpful is right after receiving communion, pray that God will bind your hearts in love together again. Your marriage is worth fighting for!