Promiscuity and Catholic youth

[AlanFromWichita]

Island Oak:

WHAT?!?!? Aren’t you the FATHER of a teenager?

Yes. One teenager and then three more. Two boys and two girls. The other boy and girl are in first and third grade, respectively. All are in Catholic schools except the oldest who graduated after 13 years in Catholic schools.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Island Oak:

I utterly fail to see what economic status–whether wealth or poverty–has to do with fidelity to moral teachings. I think taking a walk down that path is a temptation to exploit prejudices and class antagonisms that do nothing to further parental efforts to convey to teens the guidlines of a moral life, much less help them live it out.

Dear Island Oak,

You make a good point here. I do not wish to assert that class status has anything to do with this sort of behavior. I rather suspect that the exact demographics and types of behavior probably does cluster a bit on demographic boundaries, but that’s just my guess. I agree that fidelity to moral teachings cut across class lines.

My reason for bringing the “wealthy” aspect into this in the first place is that I was trying to avoid a characterization that I’m just talking about some chump school in some run-down slum where people might expect them to have poor morals. My message is, “parents, don’t think you’re immune just because your children attend a nice school where the kids are well behaved and ostensibly all Catholic and moral and stuff.” Kind of a “Johnny It-Could-Be-You” approach.

Neither am I saying my kids’ high school is snobbish, although some think it is. There are also a lot of very un-wealthy families (such as my own) who send kids there; their tuition is subsidized by individual parishes under family stewardship agreements so wealth is not a prerequisite for attendance.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Katie1723:

Unfortunately the girls don’t “get that way” on their own. I had to chuckle at your terminology Alan.

I’m glad you were amused! Actually before I posted it I did notice some other terminology more sexist than this part, and changed them. What you are reading could be just the tip of the iceberg.

For some reason the way the world is just doesn’t strike the same fear into me on behalf of my boys as my girls. Emotionally, promiscuity can mess up either ones just as bad but I tend to look at the boys as somehow having less to lose and having an easier time to walk away from it all than girls.

Also, I figure if we don’t teach the girls to stand up for themselves, then there is precious little hope we will be able to stop promiscuity from the male end of things! Since Eve, boys have been tempted to do practically anything the girl lets them get away with. That doesn’t mean we should give up hope on the boys, but while we’re teaching them so stay out of the girls-as-playground syndrome, I advocate helping the girls build a strong fence around that playground.

Also unfortunately, we can do the best we can with our kids and hope it is enough, but there are a lot more influences on our children than just us parents. I guess this is how our parents felt about us when we were trying to get away with many the same things.

Yes, and I found that when I acted like my dad, one of my sons treated me just like I treated my dad as a teenager. That required extraordinary measures (leaving the flock, as it were) to change the way I presented myself to him to show him that I am always on his side no matter what even if I disagree or disapprove, and that I will not do something stupid that will make his situation worse.

She gets all excited when she blesses herself and gets to “see Jesus’ helper”- the priest. They are so innocent at this age. A shame they have to grow up isn’t it?
~ Kathy ~

That is so precious! When my oldest son (18) was that age, he used to cover his Little Tykes table with a white linen, wear an old poncho with my wife’s baptismal sash around his neck, and “say Mass.” He’d give communion and everything, and had nearly memorized one of the Eucharistic prayers.

It is a pity he still doesn’t do that, but I am so pleased with my children that even though I miss those old times there are still plenty of good times unfolding. Plus, I think I’m looking forward to this “grandparent” thing.

Alan

 

[queen_anne78]

ummmm… ok I am going skip all the weird in-fighting for the moment and just say this:

I am 20 years old. I have a large group of close girl friends. The majority of us are saving ourselves for marriage. One of the girls that did not has since returned to the Church and changed her ways, for which I am thankful. BUT, I believe that her early sexual activity could have been prevented by her parents. Her mother told her that “I am not condoning pre-marital sex, but it’s up to you in the end to make your own decisions” and she also allowed my friend to go on birth control pills, which were supposed to be for her cramps. The lack of instruction from her mother and the loss of consequences contributed to her choice to have sex.

We MUST teach kids that they are due respect and true love. My parents gave me a promise ring when I turned 16 and I still wear it. The note my mother wrote to me said:

“Wear this ring as a symbol of the promise that you are saving yourself for God and trusting that He has the right spouse out there for you. When you get married to the man that God intends for you, give him this ring as his wedding band, and it will become a symbol of the fact that you have waited your whole life just for him, and that from then on for the rest of your life you will be just for him.”

WOW. This ring kept me from making a bad choice SO many times, because when I looked at it I was reminded that I was waititng for someone to give this ring to. Next May, I will give this ring to my fiancé on our wedding day and I am so excited to be able to give him the gift of this ring and everything that it symbolizes.

I definately plan on giving all my kids (my brother got a promise ring, too, his looks like a plain wedding band, and my sister and mine has 12 small diamonds set in a small band) promise rings like this. My sister couldn’t wait to turn 16 to get hers. I think, though, that given the way that our culture has gotten even more sexualized, that I will be giving my kids promise rings earlier on, maybe at 14.

This may not solve all the problems, but it has certainly worked in our family!

 

[AlanFromWichita]

queen_anne78:

WOW. This ring kept me from making a bad choice SO many times, because when I looked at it I was reminded that I was waititng for someone to give this ring to. Next May, I will give this ring to my fiancé on our wedding day and I am so excited to be able to give him the gift of this ring and everything that it symbolizes.

I definately plan on giving all my kids (my brother got a promise ring, too, his looks like a plain wedding band, and my sister and mine has 12 small diamonds set in a small band) promise rings like this. My sister couldn’t wait to turn 16 to get hers. I think, though, that given the way that our culture has gotten even more sexualized, that I will be giving my kids promise rings earlier on, maybe at 14.

This may not solve all the problems, but it has certainly worked in our family!

That’s a great story, and very encouraging. My wife gave our three oldest so far “chastity ring” which sounds a lot like that.

Alan

 

[Katie1723]

I just wish other parents felt as you do Alan. What a wonderful tradition with the chastity ring! Your children are indeed fortunate that you are so understanding.I suppose I am a bit cynical as I work as a maternity tech, and as such have seen girls as young as 12 having babies. And it is not unusual for some 14 or 15 y/o to have more than one. We had several cases of sisters having babies simultaneously as they both attended the “same party” It horrifies me the way our young people treat themselves and their bodies. I fell powerless to stop them. So I suppose the best I can do is pray for them. I just wish as parents there was more that we can do. I wish we could teach them respect and real love and “keeping your body as a temple” (MY mother told me this!). So I will try with my grand daughter and hope I will be able to influence her.
Thanks for listening,
~ Kathy ~

 

[hopeandlove]

queen_anne78:

ummmm… ok I am going skip all the weird in-fighting for the moment and just say this:

I am 20 years old. I have a large group of close girl friends. The majority of us are saving ourselves for marriage. One of the girls that did not has since returned to the Church and changed her ways, for which I am thankful. BUT, I believe that her early sexual activity could have been prevented by her parents. Her mother told her that “I am not condoning pre-marital sex, but it’s up to you in the end to make your own decisions” and she also allowed my friend to go on birth control pills, which were supposed to be for her cramps. The lack of instruction from her mother and the loss of consequences contributed to her choice to have sex.

We MUST teach kids that they are due respect and true love. My parents gave me a promise ring when I turned 16 and I still wear it. The note my mother wrote to me said:

“Wear this ring as a symbol of the promise that you are saving yourself for God and trusting that He has the right spouse out there for you. When you get married to the man that God intends for you, give him this ring as his wedding band, and it will become a symbol of the fact that you have waited your whole life just for him, and that from then on for the rest of your life you will be just for him.”

WOW. This ring kept me from making a bad choice SO many times, because when I looked at it I was reminded that I was waititng for someone to give this ring to. Next May, I will give this ring to my fiancé on our wedding day and I am so excited to be able to give him the gift of this ring and everything that it symbolizes.

I definately plan on giving all my kids (my brother got a promise ring, too, his looks like a plain wedding band, and my sister and mine has 12 small diamonds set in a small band) promise rings like this. My sister couldn’t wait to turn 16 to get hers. I think, though, that given the way that our culture has gotten even more sexualized, that I will be giving my kids promise rings earlier on, maybe at 14.

This may not solve all the problems, but it has certainly worked in our family!

What a nice idea for the ring, and what a wonderful gift for your future husband. Good Luck in all your wedding planning!

I agree with you that parents play a key role in this issue for their teen children, and should do everything to teach them that they “due respect and true love” but at some age we become responsible for ourselves and our bodies and not all premarital sex can be blamed on bad parenting.
Alan - Sorry to hear about your home, may the repairs go smoothly and quickly!

 

[demolitionman65]

I utterly fail to see what economic status–whether wealth or poverty–has to do with fidelity to moral teachings. I think taking a walk down that path is a temptation to exploit prejudices and class antagonisms that do nothing to further parental efforts to convey to teens the guidlines of a moral life, much less help them live it out.

Oak, I was not suggesting that this issue is tied exclusively into economic status. I AM saying that based on my observations, the wealthy appear to be more susceptible to this particular concern.

Now, when I was working amongst poor Native Americans, there was the same problem, only expressed differently. There we had NO parental supervision, and I suspect that is common amongst the working poor as well. However, that is different from what I was describing with the wealthy, who seem to have some knowledge of the problem and ignore it.

 

[Murphster]

I was homeschooled up until high school, when I attended boarding school. If ever there is a crowd of wealthy, decadent and “entitled” youth, they are in boarding schools, Catholic or not.

Boarding schools are places of hideous ritual and moral perversity. Every freshman class was subjected to hazing that was primarily sexual in nature and resembling a scene from stereotypical sorority-like initiations. “Rich Girls Gone Wild” is how my twin sister still describes it. Girls who would consent to sleeping with as many guys as possible during the last night of initiation were practically guaranteed popularity and “insta-friends” with the upperclassmen.

My particular school had house parents (faculty) and some of those house parents had families (i.e. small children) living with all of us boarders, but it is impossible to categorize our experience as being anything remotely familial. House parents had little control over their students.

My school had daily devotions and religion was supposedly part of the package, but living out any of those values was not a priority or even on the radar of any student I can remember.

Parents from afar often gave their kids full access to bank accounts, credit cards, etc. Birth control pills could be easily gotten from Planned Parenthood in the city, and every Saturday a bus took boarders into the city–no questions asked about where you were or what you did, as long as you made the bus trip back and/or were present at curfew time Saturday night. Dorm presidents were known to always keep a fishbowl of condoms underneath their bed, and whenever you wanted one or were in short supply…all you had to do was ask.

The administration was not very concerned with the activities of students, though they threatened consequences regularly. They were far more concerned with losing valuable contributions from parents and future alumni.

I was very innocent when I first arrived at boarding school. I had never even kissed a boy (though…thinking back, what was wrong with being 14 years old and never having kissed a boy before?). My naivete soon faded as I witnessed one demoralizing act after another and the ruthless peer pressure that followed to conform, conform, conform. Drink, party (drugs), spend money, have sex, etc.

Some of it was fun and games, I do admit. We threw toga parties and competed in athletics and academics and the endless jokes and super-tight closeness of living in such intimate quarters is not something I easily forget. But I would never want my twin babies exposed to that kind of debauchery. No one cared what we did, and eventually nothing was off limits to explore, to push, to test.

 

[puzzleannie]

Teenagers do not design the fashions, produce the TV shows, movies, videos and music, pay the high salaries for rock, rap and movie stars. Adults control those industries and adults are responsible for the garbage that permeates the media. Adults who promote this, make money from it, and aim it at teens and children are guilty of child abuse in its most insidious form – attacking the hearts and minds of youth. Adults who give their children the wherewithal to purchase or indulge in such trash, or who allow it in the home and thereby endorse the message, are guilty of child abuse and neglect toward their own children. CCC beginning about section 2200 deals with duties of parents toward children, responsibility for their education in faith and morals. Catholic parents have failed abysmally by failing to model Christian morality in their own lives - adultery, divorce, premarital sex, contraception, having immoral books, movies, music in the home etc. – and by a laissez faire attitude toward their own children’s behavior.

 

[La_Chiara]

puzzleannie:

Teenagers do not design the fashions, produce the TV shows, movies, videos and music, pay the high salaries for rock, rap and movie stars. Adults control those industries and adults are responsible for the garbage that permeates the media. Adults who promote this, make money from it, and aim it at teens and children are guilty of child abuse in its most insidious form – attacking the hearts and minds of youth. Adults who give their children the wherewithal to purchase or indulge in such trash, or who allow it in the home and thereby endorse the message, are guilty of child abuse and neglect toward their own children. CCC beginning about section 2200 deals with duties of parents toward children, responsibility for their education in faith and morals. Catholic parents have failed abysmally by failing to model Christian morality in their own lives - adultery, divorce, premarital sex, contraception, having immoral books, movies, music in the home etc. – and by a laissez faire attitude toward their own children’s behavior.

Amen, Annie!

 

[Giannawannabe]

puzzleannie:

Teenagers do not design the fashions, produce the TV shows, movies, videos and music, pay the high salaries for rock, rap and movie stars. Adults control those industries and adults are responsible for the garbage that permeates the media. Adults who promote this, make money from it, and aim it at teens and children are guilty of child abuse in its most insidious form – attacking the hearts and minds of youth. Adults who give their children the wherewithal to purchase or indulge in such trash, or who allow it in the home and thereby endorse the message, are guilty of child abuse and neglect toward their own children. CCC beginning about section 2200 deals with duties of parents toward children, responsibility for their education in faith and morals. Catholic parents have failed abysmally by failing to model Christian morality in their own lives - adultery, divorce, premarital sex, contraception, having immoral books, movies, music in the home etc. – and by a laissez faire attitude toward their own children’s behavior.

:clapping:

God Bless
Giannawannabe

 

[Island_Oak]

AlanFromWichita:

The other day I was sure that I posted to the Bill Joel thread, but since I have an unreliable connection in my motel room, I didn’t get a chance to see follow-ups until I went to the public library and could not find my post. Either it never got posted in the first place, or it was deleted. If it was deleted, I suppose I wasn’t surprised because I allowed myself to speak as if I was still a sexually active youth, away at college and out of reach of mommy and daddy, and it probably was offensive and/or scary to some.

At the risk of over-indulging you, let’s review here: According to your own self-reporting (no, we don’t have the dubious benefit of seeing the original post you are describing) you, a grown man of teenage children, went on-line and posed on a Billy Joel site “as if I was still a sexually active youth, away at college, and out of reach of mommy and daddy, and it probably was offensive and/or scary to some.” Despite your circular verbal dance in your response to me, you give never give any logical or reasonable explanation for such conduct. Frankly, I can’t imagine one. Pretending to be someone you’re not, and writing as a sexually active, scary-offensive someone at that, is NOT what I would consider healthy parental modeling of responsible internet use. Thus have I labeled your behaviour creepy and bizarre.

Whatever rationalization you toss out for having engaged in this unseemly conduct, the fact remains you have become a contributor to the vile slop that is rampant on the net and which the rest of us are trying to protect our kids from. The readers of your post to the Billy Joel site had no idea you are anyone other than who you claimed to be. If you made efforts to sound credible (even more creepy) then you may have in fact offended or scared or otherwise emotionally-spiritually harmed one of OUR daughters, sisters, cousins, students, etc. As such I’d label you a predator and potentially dangerous. Do us ALL a favor and the next time you feel like slumming incognito and getting your thrills via “sexually active”, “scary and/or offensive” posts on a website, take a walk or a cold shower.

And, yeah…you might have just a little to much time on your hands…

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Dear Mr. Oak,

Thank you for your clarification. Now I see your problem, and it is all in your mind. I’m sorry for the trouble that your imagination must have caused you.

Now I beg your pardon, although I am not holding my breath for an apology.

Your problem is that you misread my original post, and therefore mischaracterized my behavior, and then went on to call me many nasty names before even explaining how this behavior offends you.

As Gomer Pyle would say, Shime, Shime, Shime. :tsktsk:

There was no Billy Joel site involved.

Since you are prone to accuse before checking your facts, please note in my original post, an astonishing lack of mention of any Billy Joel site:

AlanFromWichita:

The other day I was sure that I posted to the Bill Joel thread, but since I have an unreliable connection in my motel room, I didn’t get a chance to see follow-ups until I went to the public library and could not find my post. Either it never got posted in the first place, or it was deleted.

OK, now let’s see about posing to be somebody else:

AlanFromWichita:

If it was deleted, I suppose I wasn’t surprised because I allowed myself to speak as if I was still a sexually active youth, away at college and out of reach of mommy and daddy, and it probably was offensive and/or scary to some.

I was speaking here in terms of my conversational style. I have posted enough times on this forum that with a quick search you could see that I have made no attempts to hide my identity, and have even revealed information leading to my whereabouts.

Again I’m sorry you were scared, but it was your own misperception that scared you. I can’t really take any credit for it.

Alan

P.S. some words to live by:
Matt 23:25-28:

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You cleanse the outside of cup and dish, but inside they are full of plunder and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee, cleanse first the inside of the cup, so that the outside also may be clean. "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You are like whitewashed tombs, which appear beautiful on the outside, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and every kind of filth. Even so, on the outside you appear righteous, but inside you are filled with hypocrisy and evildoing.

Oh, yes, and be careful. You might want to teach your children that every person posting on the Internet is not all they claim to be. For all I know you could be a spy for the enemy. For all you know, I could.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Island Oak:

Whatever rationalization you toss out for having engaged in this unseemly conduct, the fact remains you have become a contributor to the vile slop that is rampant on the net and which the rest of us are trying to protect our kids from.

You have kids? I’m curious about something.

Do your kids ever complain to their friends that their parents misunderstand them? If so then I assure you the Holy Spirit can help. Ask Him to become less judgmental, and open your eyes to better observe the facts of the world as they are. You might find the world is not as bad as you fear.

Alan

 

[Island_Oak]

AlanFromWichita:

Dear Mr. Oak,

There was no Billy Joel site involved.

Since you are prone to accuse before checking your facts, please note in my original post, an astonishing lack of mention of any Billy Joel site:

OK, now let’s see about posing to be somebody else:

I was speaking here in terms of my conversational style. I have posted enough times on this forum that with a quick search you could see that I have made no attempts to hide my identity, and have even revealed information leading to my whereabouts.
.

This makes absolutely no sense. Are you saying your normal conversation style as a 40+ year old man is indistinguishable from that of a “sexually active youth away at college and out of reach of mommy and daddy?” Were you or were you not pretending to be someone other that a 40-something adult/parent when you were posting your sexually explicit scary/offensive message on the Billy Joel thread?!? Is there a rational explanation for EVER posting in such a manner for a man of your age?

p.s. yes, I have kids–and it’s Mrs. IslandOak. We have no complaints from our kids about being misunderstood as of now–but then again they are not dealing with the confusion of parents who engage in speaking or writing styles which mimic a “sexually active youth away at college…”

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Dear Mrs. Oak,

First, I am not your doctor, but I think you might talk to him or her about getting yourself some chill pills.

Second, I was trying not to repeat my original post which was evidently a problem, but you want it all spelled out. I’ll write a PM to you with an example of what I was talking about.
Island Oak:

p.s. yes, I have kids–and it’s Mrs. IslandOak. We have no complaints from our kids about being misunderstood as of now–but then again they are not dealing with the confusion of parents who engage in speaking or writing styles which mimic a “sexually active youth away at college…”

No, but they are dealing with at least one parent who jumps to wrong conclusions, based on incomplete information, and accuse quickly. If you talked to your children the way you talk to me – keeping in mind that I might just be the least of Christ’s brothers, then I don’t suspect you’ll hear any complaints because there’s no point.

Alan

Oh, and about thinking you were a male, I’m sorry that I stereotyped your aggressive behavior as male. I would never talk to another male larger than me the way you talk to me.

 

[Murphster]

Kids, can we talk about the original subject?

 

[Island_Oak]

Still no substantive answer to any legitimate question I asked. Spare me the pm–I need no unsolicited smut in any of my in-boxes–esp. from a Catholic website. Good luck.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Island Oak:

Still no substantive answer to any legitimate question I asked. Spare me the pm–I need no unsolicited smut in any of my in-boxes–esp. from a Catholic website. Good luck.

Madam, I have exercised patience with you. You see whatever you believe you see. Actually I thought twice and decided not to PM you, because I am concerned that you are mentally unstable. You are so angry you are blind, and you have made some extremely serious accusations against me which are completely unfounded.

If you speak to strangers the way you do me, then I feel sorry for anybody who knows you personally.

I wanted to see what it would take for you to figure out how judgmental and wrong you were about me. Apparently God is not calling you to see this at this point. I shake your dust off my feet and will not bring it up again unless you do.

Alan