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imadesomanymist
Guest
where is the proof jesus started the catholic church as the first church?
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vincent10395
Guest
I like to use St. Ignatius of Antioch’s letter to the smyrnaeans “Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”
This was around the time 100-107 A.D, and the term Catholic Church is used here as though everyone knows what he is talking about, so the words Catholic Church were used even before this.
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GISMYS
Guest
Most of the “first church” were jews. On the confession by Peter that Jesus is the Son of God (that rock of truth) was the first church built!
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Razanir
Guest
Actually, Peter (Cephas) was the Rock (Cephas) on which Jesus built His Church.
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GISMYS
Guest
Read it again!!! The rock that the god’s true church is built on is the rock of truth =peter’s confession that jesus is god’s son on that rock of truth is god;s church built and the gates of hell will not prevail against it! Ptl
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Nacho45
Guest
I can tell you, as an Orthodox, this is not taught. I have seen and heard many discussions in person and on the internet about this topic. I noticed a few inconsistencies in what people were saying and the Catholics they spoke with were pretty much saying the same thing across the board. So, I decided I would, like any responsible person, do my own research to see what I could find. You know, to settle the debate once and for all in my mind. I have to honestly say, I was very surprised by what I found. I found references to the Pope and the Catholic Church as early as the first century, something I was assured didn’t exist. I won’t go into detail about every rock I rolled over, but I will say if I didn’t find enough to make me seriously consider the Catholic Church may be telling the most complete truth, I would never have opened a profile on this site. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t hate Orthodoxy and nothing within Orthodox dogma has me rearing back in my chair in disbelief. I can just no longer dismiss Catholic claims based on what I have found in my research.
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GISMYS
Guest
You give man’s word,I post God’s Word!!!
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MarcoPolo
Guest
For me, one must do diligent analysis of the historical and theological data available. As the previous Orthodox poster mentioned, the evidence is there, and frankly, evidence for the Orthodox Church is there too, for in the beginning the Churches now known as Catholic and Orthodox were united (not in schism). In the New Testament era of the Church, part of why people followed Christ is because He fulfilled prophecies. Here’s an article offering examples. There were also a number of witnesses recorded of Christ’s miracles, death, and subsequent resurrection. From there, many martyrs gave witness to this belief with their lives. Miracles continue in the Church to this day. Now, there are also bits of evidence that point to the Church, such as the reality of a sacrificial Eucharist; bishops, priests, and deacons; apostolic succession; etc… Many of these characteristics have theological “types” in the Old Testament - that means something like a foreshadowing of what was to come.
Anyway, any of these things could be expounded upon immensely, but that’s one take in a nutshell.
Anyway, any of these things could be expounded upon immensely, but that’s one take in a nutshell.
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rfournier103
Guest
Hmm… Besides that St. Peter the Chief of the Apostles is buried under St. Peter’s Basilica?
I attended a PUBLIC high school, and a PUBLIC university; and in my Western Civilization classes at each, it was taught to me that the Catholic Church was the ORIGINAL Christian Church, and the MOST influential force in western civilization for well over a millennium.
That may not be proof enough for you, but even if I were not raised Catholic, I think the history books and archeology would have led me there eventually.
Good luck on your quest for the truth. As they said on the “X-Files”… The truth is out there…
I attended a PUBLIC high school, and a PUBLIC university; and in my Western Civilization classes at each, it was taught to me that the Catholic Church was the ORIGINAL Christian Church, and the MOST influential force in western civilization for well over a millennium.
That may not be proof enough for you, but even if I were not raised Catholic, I think the history books and archeology would have led me there eventually.
Good luck on your quest for the truth. As they said on the “X-Files”… The truth is out there…
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Abu
Guest
From the acceptance of the reality of God to the truth of Catholicism is based on the history of Christ Himself.
Quadratus writes (circa 123 A.D.) that in his day there were still persons around who had been cured or raised from the dead by Jesus – prime witnesses. [Eusebius, *Church History, 4.3, 1.2; See Free From All Error, Fr W. Most, p 12].
Even Adolf von Harnack, a rationalist historian of high repute among Rationalists and Protestants, wrote that the Synoptic Gospels were written before 70 A.D. – before the fall of Jerusalem, and accepted the tradition that St Luke derived his information on the infancy of Jesus from Mary His Mother. Theologische Quartalsch, Tubingen 1929, IV, p 443-4].
[See *Apologetics and Catholic Doctrine, The Saint Austin Press, 2001, Sheehan/Joseph p 89, 93].
The facts of Jesus miracles were recorded by His own Apostles who were present – Saints Matthew and John were companions of Christ, and Saints Mark and Luke lived in constant contact with His contemporaries.
His miracles “were so frequent, the eyewitnesses so numerous, and the evidence so stark, that not even Christ’s enemies disputed the fact of their occurrence. Instead they ascribed them to the power of the devil, or defied Him to perform another one in His own favour.” (See Mt 12:24; 27:39-42; Jn 11:47). Apologetics and Catholic Doctrine, Sheehan/Joseph, Saint Austin Press, 2001, p 104].
It was Jesus who said to His apostles “he that hears you hears Me” (Lk 10:16)
All four promises to Peter alone:
“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18)
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven." ( Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19) [Later to the Twelve].
Sole authority:
“Strengthen your brethren.” (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).
Thus was His Catholic Church founded.
No other religious founder claimed to be God—not Mohammed of Islam, not in Hinduism, not in Buddhism, not in Taoism, not in Confucianism.
The vast gulf between Catholicism and any other religion is that the Catholic Church has been founded by a Divine Person who lived with a human and divine nature and claimed to be God, proving that claim by His Resurrection and many recorded miracles. When God leads us through His Church, others fashion their own beliefs and morals.
Quadratus writes (circa 123 A.D.) that in his day there were still persons around who had been cured or raised from the dead by Jesus – prime witnesses. [Eusebius, *Church History, 4.3, 1.2; See Free From All Error, Fr W. Most, p 12].
Even Adolf von Harnack, a rationalist historian of high repute among Rationalists and Protestants, wrote that the Synoptic Gospels were written before 70 A.D. – before the fall of Jerusalem, and accepted the tradition that St Luke derived his information on the infancy of Jesus from Mary His Mother. Theologische Quartalsch, Tubingen 1929, IV, p 443-4].
[See *Apologetics and Catholic Doctrine, The Saint Austin Press, 2001, Sheehan/Joseph p 89, 93].
The facts of Jesus miracles were recorded by His own Apostles who were present – Saints Matthew and John were companions of Christ, and Saints Mark and Luke lived in constant contact with His contemporaries.
His miracles “were so frequent, the eyewitnesses so numerous, and the evidence so stark, that not even Christ’s enemies disputed the fact of their occurrence. Instead they ascribed them to the power of the devil, or defied Him to perform another one in His own favour.” (See Mt 12:24; 27:39-42; Jn 11:47). Apologetics and Catholic Doctrine, Sheehan/Joseph, Saint Austin Press, 2001, p 104].
It was Jesus who said to His apostles “he that hears you hears Me” (Lk 10:16)
All four promises to Peter alone:
“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18)
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven." ( Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19) [Later to the Twelve].
Sole authority:
“Strengthen your brethren.” (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).
Thus was His Catholic Church founded.
No other religious founder claimed to be God—not Mohammed of Islam, not in Hinduism, not in Buddhism, not in Taoism, not in Confucianism.
The vast gulf between Catholicism and any other religion is that the Catholic Church has been founded by a Divine Person who lived with a human and divine nature and claimed to be God, proving that claim by His Resurrection and many recorded miracles. When God leads us through His Church, others fashion their own beliefs and morals.
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Cathoholic
Guest
imadesomanymist. You asked:
Before I answer that, I want to know what you would consider as “proof”.
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Misplaced_Book
Guest
The Latin Church has its roots in the Catholic Church (as does the Oriental Orthodox)…to say that it is THE Catholic Church…that continues to be a matter of contention. Numerous threads abound all over the internet about this.
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Misplaced_Book
Guest
History books are funny things. From our perspective, there was only one Holy Roman Empire, and the Emperor was no Frank.
Western Civilization is not the Center of the World, nor is it the center of Christendom.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Earliest Use of the Name “Catholic Church”
The early Church - the Church founded by Christ as promised in Matthew 16:18 - was that which was originally known as “the Way” (cf. Acts 24:14). Later, those individuals who followed Christ began to be called “Christians” beginning at Antioch (cf. Acts 11:26). As early as 107 A.D., those same individuals referred to themselves collectively as the “Catholic Church”. In a letter to the Church of Smyrna, Ignatius of Antioch wrote, “You must all follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery (priest) as you would the Apostles. Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans, A.D. 107, [8,1])
Notice that Ignatius does not introduce the term “Catholic Church”; instead he uses it in a manner suggesting that the name was already in use and familiar to his audience. This further suggests that the name, Catholic Church, had to have been coined much earlier in order to have achieved wide circulation by the time of this writing. In other words, the Christian assembly was calling itself the Catholic Church during the lifetime of the last Apostle, John, who died near the end of the first century. John, the beloved disciple, may have thought of himself as a member of the Catholic Church!
The Catholic Church began with Peter and the Apostles and continued without interruption or cessation through their disciples (Ignatius, Irenaeus, Polycarp, Clement, Justin Martyr, etc.) down to the present day. As a side note, it appears that the believers in Antioch may have coined both terms still in use today: “Christian” and “Catholic Church” – terms they used to describe the one body of believers in Christ.
Protestant Scholar on the use of the Proper Name "Catholic"
One Protestant author who is honest about this history is the renowned Church historian, J. N. D. Kelly. Kelly dates the usage of the name “Catholic” after the death of the Apostle John, but he acknowledges that the original Church founded by Jesus called itself the “Catholic Church”.
“As regards ‘Catholic,’ its original meaning was ‘universal’ or ‘general’ … As applied to the Church, its primary significance was to underline its universality as opposed to the local character of the individual congregations. Very quickly, however, in the latter half of the second century at latest, we find it conveying the suggestion that the Catholic is the true Church as distinct from heretical congregations. . . . What these early Fathers were envisaging was almost always the empirical, visible society; they had little or no inkling of the distinction which was later to become important between a visible and an invisible Church” (J. N. D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines, 5th ed. [San Francisco: Harper, 1978], 190f).
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Jon_S_1
Guest
Matt 18
15 “If your brother or sister** sins,[c] go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’[d] 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
18 “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be[e] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[f] loosed in heaven.
What does this tell us about the Church?
- It is visible- we can go to it to settle disputes
- there is one church sound in doctrine and one church that teaches the truth of Christ. Having multiple churches teaching different things negates this passage.
- it has authority (to bind and loose)
- if someone is sent out if this church they are not to just form a new church as there is only one.
Further Christ promised this church would not fail.**
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Jon_S_1
Guest
1 Cor 12
27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. 28 And God has [r]appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, thenmiracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. 29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of [t]miracles, are they? 30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? 31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts.
27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. 28 And God has [r]appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then
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rfournier103
Guest
Doesn’t “Catholic” mean “Universal”? If Christ founded His Universal Church, why is only one Church today known as “Catholic”?
It isn’t?
So… What might YOUR take on all this be?Good question…
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thistle
Guest
I notice the OP has started a few threads but doesn’t participate in them.
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