Proof for praying to saints

[twb1621]

I’m kind of sitting on the fence on this one…
Curious

These verses were posted earlier in the thread and may help to dispell your confusion regarding what you asked.
The assertion that dead saints cannot hear our invocations rests on Ps. 115 [113]:17: “The dead do not praise the Lord…” To understand and dispell this notion, It should be noted that this psalm was written at a time when Jewish understanding of the after-life was not yet fully developed. By the second century BC the Jews would have a better understanding of both the after-life and the intercessory role of the dead. So it was that Onias saw the deceased prophet Jeremiah praying for
Israel: “What he saw was this: Onias, who had been high priest, a noble and good
man, of modest bearing and gentle manner, one who spoke fittingly and
had been trained from childhood in all that belongs to excellence, was
praying with outstretched hands for the whole body of the Jews. Then in the
same fashion another appeared, distinguished by his gray hair and dignity,
and of marvelous majesty and authority. And Onias spoke, saying, This is a
man who loves the family of Israel and prays much for the people and the
holy city––Jeremiah, the prophet of God. Jeremiah stretched out his right
hand and gave to Judas a golden sword, and as he gave it he addressed
him thus: Take this holy sword, a gift from God, with which you will strike
down your adversaries” (2 Macc. 15:12-16).
At the Transfiguration on Mount Tabor, Moses and Elijah appeared talking
with Christ (St. Matt. 17:3). This would have been impossible if they had
been “dead” according to the Protestant understanding of Psalm 115 [113].
In relating to the Pharisees the parable of the Lost Sheep, Christ stated that
“there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who
repents” (St. Luke 15:10). Furthermore, in His discourse to the Sadducees,
Christ declared that the just dead are “equal to angels” (St. Luke 20:36) for
God “is God not of the dead, but of the living; for to him all of them are
alive” (St. Luke 20:38). In Hebrews 12:1 the Old Testament saints are
called “a great cloud of witnesses” that surround the believers in Christ.
Hence, it follows that both angels and humans in heaven are aware of what
is happening on earth. This is because they possess the Beatific Vision
which enables them to see in God whatever knowledge is relevant to them.
That is, they become “multi-scient”: “Now I know in part; then I shall
understand fully” (1 Cor. 13:12). In their glorified state the saints are
capable of unimaginable things, including hearing multiple prayers in
various languages. The Devil himself, though he is finite, is aware of many
things simultaneously and is engaged in multiple activities.
Consider also the following passage:
“But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the
heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to
the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the
judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect” (Heb. 12:22-
23).
In this text St. Paul explains to the faithful that although they are still on
earth, they are in communion with the heavenly Jerusalem and with the
dead saints, those righteous made perfect. The faithful on earth are not in
communion with the bodies of the saints buried in peace, but with their
souls. Death does not inhibit this communion.

Consider also the following passage:
“But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the
heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to
the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the
judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect” (Heb. 12:22-
23).
In this text St. Paul explains to the faithful that although they are still on
earth, they are in communion with the heavenly Jerusalem and with the
dead saints, those righteous made perfect. The faithful on earth are not in
communion with the bodies of the saints buried in peace, but with their
souls. Death does not inhibit this communion.

The Book of Revelation in the following verses indicates otherwise:
“…the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp,
and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints”
(5:8).
“I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of
God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice,
‘O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and
avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?’” (6:9).
“And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on
their faces and worshiped God, saying, ‘We give thanks to thee, Lord God
Almighty, who art and who wast, that thou hast taken thy great power and
begun to reign. The nations raged, but thy wrath came, and the time for the
dead to be judged, for rewarding thy servants, the prophets and saints, and
those who fear thy name, both small and great, and for destroying the
destroyers of the earth” (11:16-18).

 

[BMSODM]

Hello

As an ex protestant I struggled with much of the catholic teachings. I found through an un- bias research that all the church teaches is truth and lines up with scripture very well. The trick is to forget everything you think you know already and pray that God will show you the truth in accord to His will. I mean even if your wrong you will just end up back to were you are now. So what do you have to loose? Have faith and trust God will not miss lead you.

As for the saints scripture shows Jesus speaking with Moses and Elijah long after they were dead. And this was witnessed by the apostles. There is much more in scripture to support speaking with the saints, but let me use a little common sense here.

If you are master carpenter and you want to build a work of art do you just use a hammer and screwdriver? Or would you rather use a whole bag of specialty tools that were made for very specific jobs and are made perfect? This my friends is the kingdom of God. We have many people who were made perfect in very specific ways. If you read some of the story’s of the saints you will find that they had different gifts and were almost all made perfect in there life on earth. So common sense should tell us that if they reached a level of perfection that most will not reach here, then wouldnt it make sense to ask them to help us were we lack?

Peace unto you

Ps. And dont forget Our Blessed Mother is the greatest Saint by God’s Grace, so look to Her as your most Blessed Mother and speak with Her often because She will always bring you towards Her Son…

 

[Ecoclimber]

That verse refers to the mediation of atonement. The mediation of Christ opens the chasm between the Holy Father and sinful man. If this verse prohibited intercession, then it would also prohibit those on earth praying for one another.

Thanks for the replies. I understand more clearly now but in the statement above, if I go to my Protestant brethren for prayer and intercession, they offer prayers to God in the name of Jesus, Jesus only as a mediator not the saints, as Jesus directs in the Gospels. So the logic of the above statement is lacking.

Ask anything in my name, believe and you shall have it John 14:14. John 16:23-24
In that day you will no longer ask me anything. I tell you the truth, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 24 Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.

Why go to the saints who then must go through Jesus when we can go directly to Jesus Himself, Son of God, who knows our infirmities and weaknesses having suffered in the flesh? I do not see any scriptural references to pray to the saints other than inferences as previous stated. Didn’t Jesus direct us how to pray with the Our Father? He knows our needs even before we ask?

 

[twb1621]

Angels Unaware;4416842:

That verse refers to the mediation of atonement. The mediation of Christ opens the chasm between the Holy Father and sinful man. If this verse prohibited intercession, then it would also prohibit those on earth praying for one another.

Thanks for the replies. I understand more clearly now but in the statement above, if I go to my Protestant brethren for prayer and intercession, they offer prayers to God in the name of Jesus, Jesus only as a mediator not the saints, as Jesus directs in the Gospels. So the logic of the above statement is lacking.

Ask anything in my name, believe and you shall have it John 14:14. John 16:23-24
In that day you will no longer ask me anything. I tell you the truth, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 24 Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.

Why go to the saints who then must go through Jesus when we can go directly to Jesus Himself, Son of God, who knows our infirmities and weaknesses having suffered in the flesh? I do not see any scriptural references to pray to the saints other than inferences as previous stated. Didn’t Jesus direct us how to pray with the Our Father? He knows our needs even before we ask?

read post #138, it answers these questions.

 

[Ethan_Enoch]

By the second century BC the Jews would have a better understanding of both the after-life and the intercessory role of the dead. So it was that Onias saw the deceased prophet Jeremiah praying for
Israel: “What he saw was this: Onias, who had been high priest, a noble and good
man, of modest bearing and gentle manner, one who spoke fittingly and
had been trained from childhood in all that belongs to excellence, was
praying with outstretched hands for the whole body of the Jews. Then in the
same fashion another appeared, distinguished by his gray hair and dignity,
and of marvelous majesty and authority. And Onias spoke, saying, This is a
man who loves the family of Israel and prays much for the people and the
holy city––Jeremiah, the prophet of God. Jeremiah stretched out his right
hand and gave to Judas a golden sword, and as he gave it he addressed
him thus: Take this holy sword, a gift from God, with which you will strike
down your adversaries” (2 Macc. 15:12-16).

I’m afraid I haven’t read 2 Maccabees, ( ) so I’m not quite sure of the context of this. It doesn’t seem to be an instance of praying to Jeremiah or any other saint.

At the Transfiguration on Mount Tabor, Moses and Elijah appeared talking
with Christ (St. Matt. 17:3). This would have been impossible if they had
been “dead” according to the Protestant understanding of Psalm 115 [113].

Well, as I’ve said, I care nothing for your “Protestant” interpretation af this Psalm.

In relating to the Pharisees the parable of the Lost Sheep, Christ stated that
“there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who
repents” (St. Luke 15:10). Furthermore, in His discourse to the Sadducees,
Christ declared that the just dead are “equal to angels” (St. Luke 20:36)

I don’t think Christ meant that in the ressurection saints become like angels in every particular, with the exact same abilities, duties, and responsibililties. He’s using the angels an an example of how the saints won’t be married in heaven.

In Hebrews 12:1 the Old Testament saints are
called “a great cloud of witnesses” that surround the believers in Christ.
Hence, it follows that both angels and humans in heaven are aware of what
is happening on earth.

I offered an alternative interpretation of this verse earlier, that the saints are witnessing to us, not witnessing us. You seem to assume that your interpretation is correct. Perhaps it is, but what makes you so sure?

This is because they possess the Beatific Vision
which enables them to see in God whatever knowledge is relevant to them.
That is, they become “multi-scient”: “Now I know in part; then I shall
understand fully” (1 Cor. 13:12). In their glorified state the saints are
capable of unimaginable things, including hearing multiple prayers in
various languages. The Devil himself, though he is finite, is aware of many
things simultaneously and is engaged in multiple activities.

The saints in heaven don’t know everything. I don’t know that we can determine what knowledge is relevant to them. We might think that the knowledge of when their blood will be avenged is relevant to them, but we know that they don’t know this (Rev. 6:10).

If you include the context of 1 Cor. 13:12,

“For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know only in part; then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known.”,

I think you can see this verse is talking about knowing God, not knowing everything.

Consider also the following passage:
“But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the
heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to
the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the
judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect” (Heb. 12:22-
23).
In this text St. Paul explains to the faithful that although they are still on
earth, they are in communion with the heavenly Jerusalem and with the
dead saints, those righteous made perfect. The faithful on earth are not in
communion with the bodies of the saints buried in peace, but with their
souls. Death does not inhibit this communion.

I have never said it did. You are the one suggesting that this spiritual communion is altered by physical death, Not I. I think our spiritual communion with the saints in heaven is the same as it is with the saints on earth, and that it does not involve direct spiritual communication.

The Book of Revelation in the following verses indicates otherwise:
“…the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp,
and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints”
(5:8).
“I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of
God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice,
‘O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and
avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?’” (6:9).
“And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on
their faces and worshiped God, saying, ‘We give thanks to thee, Lord God
Almighty, who art and who wast, that thou hast taken thy great power and
begun to reign. The nations raged, but thy wrath came, and the time for the
dead to be judged, for rewarding thy servants, the prophets and saints, and
those who fear thy name, both small and great, and for destroying the
destroyers of the earth” (11:16-18).

I am not at all questioning the ability of the saints in heaven to pray to God, I’m question our ability to pray to them.

 

[Ethan_Enoch]

From the Church Fathers;
Fathers
Inscriptions from the Catacombs
“O Atticus, sleep in peace and in the security of thy salvation and pray
earnestly for our sins” (Capitol Museum, Rome);
“Gentianus, faithful, in peace who lived twelve years, eight months and
sixteen days. You will intercede for us in your prayers because we know
that you are in Christ” (Lateran Museum, Rome).4
CCC # 1852, 2110-2117.

These are definitely the strongest piece of evidence you’ve shown so far. Do you know who wrote these, and when & where they were written?

St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures 23 (Mystagogic 5), 10
(c. 350 AD)
“Then we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first,
the patriarchs, prophets, Apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers
and supplications God would receive our petition; next, we make mention
also of the holy fathers and bishops who have already fallen asleep, and, to
put it simply, of all among us who have already fallen asleep; for we
believe that it will be of very great benefit to the souls of those for whom
the petition is carried up, while this holy and most solemn Sacrifice is laid
out.”
St. Epiphanius of Salamis, Against All Heresies 75, 8 (377 AD)
“Furthermore, as to mentioning the names of the dead, how is there
anything very useful in that? What is more timely or more excellent than
that those who are still here should believe that the departed do live, and
that they have not retreated into nothingness, but that they exist and are
alive with the Master? And so that this most august proclamation might be
told in full, how do they have hope, who are praying for the brethren as if
they were but sojourning in a foreign land? Useful too is the prayer
fashioned on their behalf, even if it does not force back the whole of guilty
charges laid to them.”
St. Augustine of Hippo, Against Faustus the Manichean 20, 21 (c.
400 AD)
“A Christian people celebrates together in religious solemnity the
memorials of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so
that it can share in their merits and be aided by their prayers. But it is done
in such a way that our altars are not set up to any one of the martyrs––
although in their memory––but to God Himself, the God of those martyrs …
That worship, which the Greeks call latria and for which there is in Latin
no single term, and which is expressive of the subjection owed to Divinity
alone, we neither accord nor teach that it should be accorded to any save
to the one God.”

These do not suggest praying to the Saints. Mentioning someone, or having a memorial for someone, is not the same as trying to communicate with him.

St. Jerome, Against Vigilantius 6 (406 AD)
“You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each
other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for
another can be heard; and this is especially clear since the martyrs, though
they cry vengeance for their own blood, have never been able to obtain
their request. But if the Apostles and martyrs while still in the body can
pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about
themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories,
and triumphs.”

This has to do with the Saints praying to God, not with us praying to them.

St. John Damascene, Apologetical Sermons Against those who Reject
Sacred Images 3, 41 (post 725 AD)
“We worship and adore the Creator and Maker alone, as God who by His
nature is to be worshipped. We worship also the Holy Mother of God, not
as God, but as God’s Mother according to the flesh. Moreover, we worship
also the saints, as elect friends of God, and as having gotten ready audience
with Him.”
Referenceed from lumenverum.org/apologetics/DefendtheFaith/page247.html

Golly. I thought the Catholic apologetic line was that you don’t worship Mary & the Saints. Are you agreeing with this person?

 

[Angels_Unaware]

Thanks for the replies. I understand more clearly now but in the statement above, if I go to my Protestant brethren for prayer and intercession, they offer prayers to God in the name of Jesus, Jesus only as a mediator not the saints, as Jesus directs in the Gospels. So the logic of the above statement is lacking.

I think you have this a little confused. If you go to your living brother and ask him for prayer, then he joins his prayers with yours that are directed to the Father. They don’t go “through” Jesus; Jesus opened the door to the Father so we can go directly to the Father. Now, we can go directly to Jesus, too, who will go to the Father- but the mediation of Jesus you are speaking of (the One Mediator) is atonement based, which tore the veil in the temple. Jesus opened the door so that people (the Church militant, suffering, or triumphant) have access to the Father.

What you seem to have confused is that when you ask the Church triumphant (the saints) to pray for you, they are accessing the Father just like your brother here. You aren’t “going through a saint instead of Jesus”.

Why go to the saints who then must go through Jesus when we can go directly to Jesus Himself, Son of God, who knows our infirmities and weaknesses having suffered in the flesh? I do not see any scriptural references to pray to the saints other than inferences as previous stated. Didn’t Jesus direct us how to pray with the Our Father? He knows our needs even before we ask?

The question of why ask the saints to pray for you instead of going directly to the Father or the Son is answered in exactly the same way as it is here on earth. Because when two or more are gathered together in Christ’s name He is present. There is something special about people joining their prayers together. It is edifying.

You said, “didn’t Jesus direct us to pray to Our Father? He know our needs before we ask?”

Yes, and you should pray to the Father. That does not mean you should not ask a saint to pray for you and with you also.

Yes, and if He knows our needs before we ask, then why pray at all? Obviously we pray for reasons other than to have our needs met. We pray to glorify God, for example, and to draw near, and to exercise the fruits of the spirit and our spiritual gifts.

One Protestant asked some very bizarre questions about this topic on another thread that gave the impression that she thought Catholics go first to saints in substitution for God… I can’t speak for other Catholics, but I spend the bulk of my time praying to God directly. It is only when I am finished that I say, "St. Teresa, pray for me for this intention, " or whoever I am directing the request to.

 

[Nita]

Golly. I thought the Catholic apologetic line was that you don’t worship Mary & the Saints. Are you agreeing with this person?

We don’t worship Mary and the saints as “God”. In Catholic theology, there are three separate categories of worship:

1)*** latria*** - adoration which is due to God alone;

2)* hyperduliae* - (this is substantially less the the “latria” which is given to God) - it is a special veneration given to Mary in view of her dignity as the Mother of God and her fullness of grace.

1. duliae - this is the veneration given to the angels and saints.

So you see, the problem arises only when one is unaware of the multiple uses and meanings of the word “worship” in Catholic terminology.
(In secular terminology also, “worship” is used in various ways. Eg. " He worships the ground she walks on.")

 

[japhy]

These do not suggest praying to the Saints. Mentioning someone, or having a memorial for someone, is not the same as trying to communicate with him.

You’re not reading closely enough. They mention either praying to God through the saints, or the saints praying for us:
St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures 23 (Mystagogic 5), 10 (c. 350 AD)
“Then we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, Apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition…”

St. Epiphanius of Salamis, Against All Heresies 75, 8 (377 AD)
“What is more timely or more excellent than that those who are still here should believe that the departed do live, and that they have not retreated into nothingness, but that they exist and are alive with the Master? And so that this most august proclamation might be told in full, how do they have hope, who are praying for the brethren as if they were but sojourning in a foreign land?”

St. Augustine of Hippo, Against Faustus the Manichean 20, 21 (c. 400 AD)
“A Christian people celebrates together in religious solemnity the memorials of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so that it can share in their merits and be aided by their prayers.”

I thought the Catholic apologetic line was that you don’t worship Mary & the Saints. Are you agreeing with this person?

The use of the English word “worship” is lamentable. I’d like to see the original text. But even still, we can see that St. John is differentiating between God (Who alone is worshiped and adored) and Mary and the saints (who are “worshiped”).

 

[twb1621]

I’m afraid I haven’t read 2 Maccabees, ( ) so I’m not quite sure of the context of this. It doesn’t seem to be an instance of praying to Jeremiah or any other saint.

with all due respect, all of the information pertaining to Interpretations following here in blue are interpretations from a 2000 year old Church founded by Christ. Unless you can disprove the following with equal authority I don’t see where your refuting them is credible.

Well, as I’ve said, I care nothing for your “Protestant” interpretation af this Psalm.

OK, you choose not to care about this but it doesn’t refute the substance of the point.

I don’t think Christ meant that in the ressurection saints become like angels in every particular, with the exact same abilities, duties, and responsibililties. He’s using the angels an an example of how the saints won’t be married in heaven.

Your personal interpretation is wrong. Actually, according to Biblical interpretation, Jesus is expressing the insignificance of their question regarding marriage asserting what is of importance, the fact that because they (the saints) are the ones who will rise: literally, “being sons of the resurrection.” He was supporting the point describing their equality with the angels.

I offered an alternative interpretation of this verse earlier, that the saints are witnessing to us, not witnessing us. You seem to assume that your interpretation is correct. Perhaps it is, but what makes you so sure?

Again, according to Biblical interpretation, this verse is referring to the heroes of the Old Testament who obtained their recompense only after the saving work of Christ had been accomplished. Thus they already enjoy what Christians who are still struggling do not yet possess in its fullness. In this respect, we are surrounded by them and their support in which case they are aware.

The saints in heaven don’t know everything. I don’t know that we can determine what knowledge is relevant to them. We might think that the knowledge of when their blood will be avenged is relevant to them, but we know that they don’t know this (Rev. 6:10).

If you include the context of 1 Cor. 13:12,

“For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know only in part; then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known.”,

I think you can see this verse is talking about knowing God, not knowing everything.

I think this is your interpretation. However, Again, according to Biblical interpretation, this verse is referring to the heroes of the Old Testament who obtained their recompense only after the saving work of Christ had been accomplished. Thus they already enjoy what Christians who are still struggling do not yet possess in its fullness. In this respect, we are surrounded by them and their support in which case they are very much aware.

I have never said it did. You are the one suggesting that this spiritual communion is altered by physical death, Not I. I think our spiritual communion with the saints in heaven is the same as it is with the saints on earth, and that it does not involve direct spiritual communication.

I am not at all questioning the ability of the saints in heaven to pray to God, I’m question our ability to pray to them.

According to Biblical interpretation, it is recognized as Beatific Vision, which is described as the intuitive knowledge of God which produces heavenly beatitude. As defined by the Church, the souls of the just “see the divine essence by an intuitive vision and face to face, so that the divine essence is known immediately, showing itself plainly, clearly and openly, and not mediately through any creature” (Denzinger 1000-2). Moreover, the souls of the saints “clearly behold God, one and triune, as He is” (Denzinger 1304-6). It is called vision in the mind by analogy with bodily sight, which is the most comprehensive of human sense faculties; it is called beatific because it produces happiness in the will and the whole being. As a result of this immediate vision of God, the blessed share in the divine happiness, where the beatitude of the Trinity is (humanly speaking) the consequence of God’s perfect knowledge of his infinite goodness. The beatific vision is also enjoyed by the angels, and was possessed by Christ in his human nature even while he was in his mortal life on earth. (Etym. Latin beatificus, beatific, blissful, imparting great happiness or blessedness; from beatus, happy.) From the Catholic Dictionary

 

[japhy]

These are definitely the strongest piece of evidence you’ve shown so far. Do you know who wrote these, and when & where they were written?

This source records the “Gentianus” and “Atticus” inscriptions as from the 3rd or 4th century. It has many other records of inscriptions asking the deceased in Christ to pray.

 

[Ethan_Enoch]

Hi Ethan, How are you?

Fine, thank you. How are you?

Sola Scripture doesn’t work honey! Where in scripture does it say that it has inerrant qualities?

Sola Scriptura & the Inerrancy of Scripture are not synonymous. If the Bible is inerrant (Inerrancy of Scripture) it does not necessarily follow that it is the supreme rule of faith & practice (Sola Scriptura). If their were a newspaper article that did not have any errors it would be inerrant, but not the supreme rule of faith.

Inerrancy is necessary for Sola Scriptura, Sola Scriptura is not necessary for Inerrancy.

As for scripture witnessing to its own inerrant qualities, inerrancy has only one quality: no errors. We con infer this from 2 Tim 3:16:

“All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,”

Which errors did God inspire? Which errors are profitable to teach, &c.?

There are so many errors and contradictions in Scriptures. A few are:

…&c., &c., &c.,…

***Dear, There are also many ( I have around 150 or more) examples if you need more proof that your statement is in error thinking that scriptures could not be! The truth of scripture as interpreted by the “real” church is never in error. But things taken out of context of the entire scripture, in order to prove a particuler point usually are in error as interpreted! ***

I don’t get your point. Do you believe Scripture says anything that isn’t true? You’ve given me a long list of supposed “errors” in the Bible, and then say “The truth of scripture…is never in error.” Do you believe some parts of the Bible are not part of “the truth of Scripture”? I’ll take one of your examples:

14. God is warlike Ex 15:3/ Is 51:15
God is peaceful Rom 15:33/ 1 Cor 14:33

Do you believe that one of these is not true? Which is the “error”? It seems to me that they are both true, and so it is with all of your examples.

Interpretations can be in error, but not Scripture.

***That “observable” fact isn’t true. It is your personal opinion. How do you know humans do not receive spiritual communications from other human beings?

Many people profess that they in fact do, and also from the departed. Who are you to dismiss their opinion for your own?
Don’t throw out your personal opinion as undisputed fact dear, it just isn’t so! many people have received Miracles from Saints, do yuo wish to call them all liars? I would hope not. You see too nice to do that!

Oh, By the way, have you ever heard what happens when we “assume” ?***

Well, if you like, we can conduct an experiment. Spiritually pray to someone living, without telling him that you’re going to ahead of time. Ask him to pray for a prayer request which he doesn’t already know about. Afterwards, physically ask him if he heard your prayer.

Waiting with baited breath here!

What is it baited with? I hope it’s cheese. I can’t resist cheesy breath!

(Sorry, I just couldn’t help myself!)

 

[Ethan_Enoch]

I don’t understand this objection. You stated as Scripture says, those who “die” in Christ are alive (and moreso than on Earth) in Him… that Psalm refers to all the dead who were in Sheol (1 Peter 3:18-20) who by the way were conscious and awaiting deliverance. Now they CAN praise God… those righteous.

I agree. twb1621 seems to have had the idea that my objection to praying to the saints was based on this verse. It is not. I think this verse is irrelevant to our debate.

And 1 Samuel 28 we see that Saul went to a medium, a witch, to try to contact Samuel. Well, much to the witch’s shock and fear, Samuel appeared. Don’t be so surprised that people humans could recieve spiritual communication from other humans during their physical lives.

Are you arguing that praying to the Saints is like Saul at Endor? I would have thought you would want to stay away from that story.

 

[twb1621]

These are definitely the strongest piece of evidence you’ve shown so far. Do you know who wrote these, and when & where they were written?

Thank the Archeologists that discovered and proved them. There in Museums in Rome but I am sure you can look up the museums on line.

These do not suggest praying to the Saints. Mentioning someone, or having a memorial for someone, is not the same as trying to communicate with him.

#1. St. Cyril of Jerusalem - “Then we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, Apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers
and supplications God would receive our petition;
#2. St. Epiphanius of Salamis, Against All Heresies 75, 8 (377 AD)
“Furthermore, as to mentioning the names of the dead, how is there
anything very useful in that? What is more timely or more excellent than
that those who are still here should believe that the departed do live, and
that they have not retreated into nothingness, but that they exist and are
alive with the Master? And so that this most august proclamation might be
told in full, how do they have hope, who are praying for the brethren as if
they were but sojourning in a foreign land? Useful too is the prayer
fashioned on their behalf, even if it does not force back the whole of guilty
charges laid to them.”
#3. “A Christian people celebrates together in religious solemnity the
memorials of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so
that it can share in their merits and be aided by their prayers…”

What were you reading?

This has to do with the Saints praying to God, not with us praying to them.

What it is saying is clear. “But if the Apostles and martyrs while still in the body can
pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about
themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories,
and triumphs”. Meaning they undoubtedly will pray for us in Heaven. You can argue this but you would be arguing against St. Jerome.

Golly. I thought the Catholic apologetic line was that you don’t worship Mary & the Saints. Are you agreeing with this person?

Of course I agree with the principal it clearly presents although not the misuse of the word “worship”. But don’t fret Ethan, I assure you I will contact the source and have the misuse of the word “worship” corrected to honor which is as it should be. I also intend to recommend the author be held to one full week without ice cream before bed for this error.

 

[johnnydigit]

interesting tidbit, the early Church said Mass on the tombs of the martyrs (which is why we still have relics in our altars). the tomb of the Saint became the altar. it’s like we would offer up the ultimate human victim to God, in perfect imitation of Christ - Man and God. God approves it, and sends Christ, the only mediator between Man and God, down on such altar to bring us the perfect connection, the perfect life - His true Body and Blood to complete the redemption. we each strive to become that Saint each time we receive Him.

i am coming to learn just how awesome the Saints are. i encourage everyone to read daily, “The Lives of the Saints” by Fr. Alban Butler (%between%read online sacred-texts.com/chr/lots/index.htm) . it is so inspiring and brings me to tears almost on a daily basis. next to the Bible and Imitation of Christ, it is said to be indispensable to living a holy life.

 

[Peter_J]

I’m afraid I haven’t read 2 Maccabees, ( ) so I’m not quite sure of the context of this. It doesn’t seem to be an instance of praying to Jeremiah or any other saint.

You’re right, it doesn’t mention praying to Jeremiah or any other saint. But it’s very closely connected to the question of praying to the Saints, because it proves that the Saints in heaven pray for us.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Fine, thank you. How are you?

**If I was a dog, my tail would be wagging! **

Sola Scriptura & the Inerrancy of Scripture are not synonymous. If the Bible is inerrant (Inerrancy of Scripture) it does not necessarily follow that it is the supreme rule of faith & practice (Sola Scriptura). If their were a newspaper article that did not have any errors it would be inerrant, but not the supreme rule of faith.

Dear, there are "mistakes in the bible. But the messsage in the bible as “interpreted” by God’s church is Inerrant. People can not interpret the Bible themselves! And yes it says that in the Bible!

Inerrancy is necessary for Sola Scriptura, Sola Scriptura is not necessary for Inerrancy.

As for scripture witnessing to its own inerrant qualities, inerrancy has only one quality: no errors. We can infer this from 2 Tim 3:16:

**STOP! To “infer” is to have your “Own” opinion. So just say “In my opinion…” You see I don’t hold the same opinion! so there isn’t any We unless you are French ! **

“All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,”

**I agree with that as stated 100%. However, It doesn’t say or infer that it is inerrant, just inspired and “useful”! **

Which errors did God inspire? Which errors are profitable to teach, &c.?

**No errors were inspired. Many were made! The “message” was inspired and infalliable! However, that doesn’t mean that every word written **was “Inspired” .Rather, only the infalliable message that the writing is attempting to transmit through words subject to mis-interpretations is inspired.
The Bible communicates ideas, just like we are attempting to do right now. Don’t you have people mis-quote you? If not stay around here a few days it will happen often here. They “claim” you said something when in your “heart” and " personal understanding as the original author " you actually know you said something else. Imagine the Bible written over centeries by many authors

I don’t get your point. Do you believe Scripture says anything that isn’t true?

**Yes they do! Of course they do! So you did get my point! **

You’ve given me a long list of supposed “errors” in the Bible, and then say “The truth of scripture…is never in error.” Do you believe some parts of the Bible are not part of “the truth of Scripture”? I’ll take one of your examples:

God is warlike Ex 15:3/ Is 51:15
God is peaceful Rom 15:33/ 1 Cor 14:33

Do you believe that one of these is not true? Which is the “error”? It seems to me that they are both true, and so it is with all of your examples.

They say different things and you think they are both correct? Of course one of them would be “used” wrong if taken out of context. to prove anything! That is my point.

John is Poor. John is Rich. Which is true? It depends dosn’t it? The statements can not stand alone. That is what has to happen with the Bible. The statements can not be taked out to prove anything, unless it is done by the author. The 2,000 year old Church!

God is peaceful = Don’t fight the Bible says so! it is “infered” in Rom 15:33/ 1 Cor 14:33
God is warlike = God want us to fight our enemys! It can be “infered” in Ex 15:3/ Is 51:15

The problem is: ONLY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH HAS THE AUTHORITY TO INFER ANYTHING ABOUT THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION

Interpretations can be in error, but not Scripture.

** “That”** statement is so wrong! The Catholic church’s interpretation of the messages of the scripoture can not be wrong. Everyone knows the Bible is riddled with repetitions and contradictions, things that the Bible bangers would be quick to point out in anything that they want to criticize. That isn’t my intention at all. I love the Bible I read it often. I just don’t intertret it that is the Church’s Job! Beyond my pay grade as our future persident says!
For instance, Genesis 1 and 2 disagree about the order in which things are created, and how satisfied God is about the results of his labors. (The truth is GOD CREATED THE EARTH everything.)
The flood story is really two interwoven stories that contradict each other on how many of each kind of animal are to be brought into the Ark–is it one pair each or seven pairs each of the “clean” ones? (The truth there was a FLOOD)
The Gospel of John disagrees with the other three Gospels on the activities of Jesus Christ (how long had he stayed in Jerusalem–a couple of days or a whole year?) and all four Gospels contradict each other on the details of Jesus Christ’s last moments and resurrection. (They were teaching different lessons to different people. They are all TRUE but contain error in “facts” for lack os a better word)
The Gospels of Matthew and Luke contradict each other on the genealogy of Jesus Christ’s father; though both agree that Joseph was not his real father. Such repetitions and contradictions are understandable for a hodgepodge collection of documents, which the books of the Bible actually are. There are many errors contained in the bible! Only a Church truly guided by the HS can provide the correct interpretation. That would be Jesus’ church. The CC! The Scriptures are not some carefully constructed treatise, reflecting a well-thought-out plan. It is a " LOVE STORY! " ~ God so loved the world that He made us and gave us His son to bring us to everlasting Joy with Him in Heaven! We need Jesus, the church and the sacraments we don’t need the Bible to be saved only to be remined of Gods love for us!

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Ethan Enoch:

Post part two:

**Note to my dislexic Protestant friends. No I did not call myself a god at the beginning of the last post! However, I did go to a toga party dressed as a goat once! …
**

Well, if you like, we can conduct an experiment. Spiritually pray to someone living, without telling him that you’re going to ahead of time. Ask him to pray for a prayer request which he doesn’t already know about. Afterwards, physically ask him if he heard your prayer.

**What could or would that prove exactly?

I happen to think about people and they will call me or come visit. I might not have thought about them in months etc. I didn’t “pray” but maybe our spirits did communicate.
The Native Americans have a word for it “Calling” You think of someone they will reply.
When I was in the war, I felt the prayers of my family. I felt the protection their love provided me. If you are so empty a shell I will pray to and for you my dear! That is so sad!
Anyway, who am I to judge mysteries? I am but a poor stupid human, with the help of God, attempting to obtain eternal life.

What would your little unscientific experiment prove? That we don’t agree? I already know that:thumbsup: Don’t you? **

What is it baited with? I hope it’s cheese. I can’t resist cheesy breath!

**Sigh see what I mean? It was strawberry jam! **

(Sorry, I just couldn’t help myself!)

** (Me neither! )

God Bless you! **

 

[BMSODM]

Angels Unaware;4416842:

That verse refers to the mediation of atonement. The mediation of Christ opens the chasm between the Holy Father and sinful man. If this verse prohibited intercession, then it would also prohibit those on earth praying for one another.

Thanks for the replies. I understand more clearly now but in the statement above, if I go to my Protestant brethren for prayer and intercession, they offer prayers to God in the name of Jesus, Jesus only as a mediator not the saints, as Jesus directs in the Gospels. So the logic of the above statement is lacking.

Ask anything in my name, believe and you shall have it John 14:14. John 16:23-24
In that day you will no longer ask me anything. I tell you the truth, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 24 Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.

Why go to the saints who then must go through Jesus when we can go directly to Jesus Himself, Son of God, who knows our infirmities and weaknesses having suffered in the flesh? I do not see any scriptural references to pray to the saints other than inferences as previous stated. Didn’t Jesus direct us how to pray with the Our Father? He knows our needs even before we ask?

**Hello again
I noticed you used the ask and recieve scriptures, the thing to remember is that its only given if its in accord with the Fathers Will. This is very important because praying with other humans here on earth limit our chances of knowing the Will at all times. But when we pray with the Saints we know its more likely that the saints know the Will of God because they are with Him in the fullness of His Glory. So when we ask them to pray for something we trust that they will ask in accord with the Will and it will be given because two or three are gathered and a prayer of a righteous man avaith much.

Hope this makes a little sense
Peace unto you…**

 

[Angels_Unaware]

Angels Unaware;4416842:

That verse refers to the mediation of atonement. The mediation of Christ opens the chasm between the Holy Father and sinful man. If this verse prohibited intercession, then it would also prohibit those on earth praying for one another.

Thanks for the replies. I understand more clearly now but in the statement above, if I go to my Protestant brethren for prayer and intercession, they offer prayers to God in the name of Jesus, Jesus only as a mediator not the saints, as Jesus directs in the Gospels. So the logic of the above statement is lacking.

Ask anything in my name, believe and you shall have it John 14:14. John 16:23-24
In that day you will no longer ask me anything. I tell you the truth, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 24 Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.

Why go to the saints who then must go through Jesus when we can go directly to Jesus Himself, Son of God, who knows our infirmities and weaknesses having suffered in the flesh? I do not see any scriptural references to pray to the saints other than inferences as previous stated. Didn’t Jesus direct us how to pray with the Our Father? He knows our needs even before we ask?

Just wanted to clarify the authors who posted various sentiments so that it does not appear that I made the comments that were made by Ecoclimber…His quotations were slightly skewed so it appeared I made his comments