Proof for praying to saints

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sandusky said:
🤷 That’s anachronism.
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Hi,

Pray, tell us, Sandusky, as we make petition for you to entreat us, in our humble supplication, so as to explain why you believe the church is bound to follow your errant grammatical rules whereby you consider these words cannot be used to refer to simply making request (as is their correct traditional english usage) and must refer exclusively to worship?

I pray that you may be so kind as to explain this position if you will…

[Merriam-Webster dictionary]
Main Entry: 1prayer
Pronunciation: \ˈprer\
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French priere, praiere, preiere, from Medieval Latin precaria, from Latin, feminine of precarius obtained by entreaty, from prec-, prex
Date: 14th century
1 a (1): an address (as a petition) to God or a god in word or thought (2): a set order of words used in praying b: an earnest request or wish
2: the act or practice of praying to God or a god
3: a religious service consisting chiefly of prayers —often used in plural
4: something prayed for
5: a slight chance <haven’t got a prayer>

God Bless,
 
D_M said:
Hi,

Pray, tell us, Sandusky, as we make petition for you to entreat us, in our humble supplication, so as to explain why you believe the church is bound to follow your errant grammatical rules whereby you consider these words cannot be used to refer to simply making request (as is their correct traditional english usage) and must refer exclusively to worship?

I pray that you may be so kind as to explain this position if you will…

[Merriam-Webster dictionary]
Main Entry: 1prayer
Pronunciation: \ˈprer\
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French priere, praiere, preiere, from Medieval Latin precaria, from Latin, feminine of precarius obtained by entreaty, from prec-, prex
Date: 14th century
1 a (1): an address (as a petition) to God or a god in word or thought (2): a set order of words used in praying b: an earnest request or wish2: the act or practice of praying to God or a god
3: a religious service consisting chiefly of prayers —often used in plural
4: something prayed for
5: a slight chance <haven’t got a prayer>

God Bless,
Click to expand...
You can believe whatever you’d like, Pal; in fact, you already do.

I’m just offering the truth to Elizabeth.
 
sandusky said:
🤷 That’s anachronism.
Click to expand...
**

Sand, And what is the Bible?

Prayer is an act in the practice of religion which consists in asking proper gifts or graces from God. In a more general sense it is the application of the mind to Divine things, not merely to acquire a knowledge of them but to make use of such knowledge as a means of union with God. This may be done by acts of praise and thanksgiving, but petition is the principal act of prayer.

The words used to express it in Scripture are:
to call up (Genesis 4:26);
to intercede (Job 22:10);
to mediate (Isaiah 53:10);
to consult (1 Samuel 28:6);
to beseech (Exodus 32:11);

The Church Fathers speak of it as:
the elevation of the mind to God with a view to asking proper things from Him (St. John Damascene, “De fide”, III, xxiv, in P.G., XCIV, 1090);
communing and conversing with God (St. Gregory of Nyssa, “De oratione dom.”, in P.G., XLIV, 1125);
talking with God (St. John Chrysostom, “Hom. xxx in Gen.”, n. 5, in P.G., LIII, 280).

Once we teach you prayer, can we move on to FAITH? That is what you seem to be lacking! 😃
I found all the correct answers for you. They will explain the CC religion so you can see for yourself what we know! The files will download automatically. I hope that the devil doesn’t try to stop you from receiving them, as he does the meaning of prayer: Here they come: **
freesmileys.org/smileys/whacky056.gif
 
Realcatholicgk said:
**

Sand, And what is the Bible?

Prayer is an act in the practice of religion which consists in asking proper gifts or graces from God. In a more general sense it is the application of the mind to Divine things, not merely to acquire a knowledge of them but to make use of such knowledge as a means of union with God. This may be done by acts of praise and thanksgiving, but petition is the principal act of prayer.

The words used to express it in Scripture are:
to call up (Genesis 4:26);
to intercede (Job 22:10);
to mediate (Isaiah 53:10);
to consult (1 Samuel 28:6);
to beseech (Exodus 32:11);

The Church Fathers speak of it as:
the elevation of the mind to God with a view to asking proper things from Him (St. John Damascene, “De fide”, III, xxiv, in P.G., XCIV, 1090);
communing and conversing with God (St. Gregory of Nyssa, “De oratione dom.”, in P.G., XLIV, 1125);
talking with God (St. John Chrysostom, “Hom. xxx in Gen.”, n. 5, in P.G., LIII, 280).

Once we teach you prayer, can we move on to FAITH? That is what you seem to be lacking! 😃
I found all the correct answers for you. They will explain the CC religion so you can see for yourself what we know! The files will download automatically. I hope that the devil doesn’t try to stop you from receiving them, as he does the meaning of prayer: Here they come: **
freesmileys.org/smileys/whacky056.gif
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#10

Click on that “#10” it’s the answer to how and to whom the believer should pray.
 
Realcatholicgk said:
**The Church Fathers speak of it as:
the elevation of the mind to God with a view to asking proper things from Him (St. John Damascene, “De fide”, III, xxiv, in P.G., XCIV, 1090);
communing and conversing with God (St. Gregory of Nyssa, “De oratione dom.”, in P.G., XLIV, 1125);
talking with God (St. John Chrysostom, “Hom. xxx in Gen.”, n. 5, in P.G., LIII, 280).
**
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Thanks for the quotes. I’ll have to give them a little thought.

If you don’t mind my asking, what Church or Denomination do you belong to?
 
sandusky said:
You can believe whatever you’d like, Pal; in fact, you already do.

I’m just offering the truth to Elizabeth.
Click to expand...
Hi,

I pray to you, sandusky, that even though you failed to give explanation for why it is prayer cannot refer to making earnest request and instead chose to level unjustified accusations against me, that I may still make further petition to you to answer some more questions for us…

Now consider:

James 5:16 Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.

So we see here, that the prayers of the saints have great powers in their effects and that we should pray for one another.

Now if I asked a righteous person who was living today to pray for me would you have any problem with this?

Am I committing idolatry by asking this person to pray for me?

If yes, then you are rejecting scripture that teaches this.

If not, then you agree that making these requests are valid.

Now suppose the person died and went to heaven… am I no longer allowed to ask them, since they can hear me in heaven, to pray for me because they are in heaven now?

Why does the fact that the person is dead make it idolatry to ask them to pray for me, but when they were alive it was valid to ask them this very same thing?

God Bless,
 
Peter_J said:
Thanks for the quotes. I’ll have to give them a little thought.

If you don’t mind my asking, what Church or Denomination do you belong to?
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**

Not at all, but why did you ask, may I ask? I thought my name gave it away. I said REAL catholic! 😃 Anyway, I am a cradle Roman Catholic. Re-born in the Spirit, on 11 Nov 1976. That was aid for my spirit filled christian brothers of other denominations. I am a Pratical Catholic as understood by the Roman Catholic Church in communication with the Holy See. **

freesmileys.org/smileys/bounce014.gif freesmileys.org/smileys/bounce014.gif
 
sandusky said:
#10

Click on that “#10” it’s the answer to how and to whom the believer should pray.
Click to expand...
**Sand, My dear,
If you say you never pray outside an inner room your pants will be on fire!

You QUOTE:
“But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door
and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you. — Matthew 6:6-9

We both know that:
That verse only shows that Jesus opposed public prayer! What Jesus was opposing was those phonies that pray out-loud in public places as if they are of some religious authority. We have seen people do this on college campuses where they pray loud and talk loud and condemn all of the passerbys.
Jesus was mainly saying that this is no good because the prayer is not sincere and are thereby useless. You don’t have to yell out-loud so that all men can hear. You don’t need a 120-watt speakers and high quality woofers for God to hear"
Now that doesn’t say that you can’t pray to other people than God and you know that! Come on we both know you aren’t as dumb as you pretend to be with those kind of remarks! You are intelligent! I like reading your posts. At least you try to be fair. 👍 Many people don’t see it but I sure do!

Jesus prayed outside dear:

"These things spake Jesus; and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that the son may glorify thee "–John 17. 17

These other Bible examples are still Valid examples of different type of prayer. It all isn’t worship! 👍 Please, don’t disregard them: :tsktsk: The words used to express prayer in Scripture are:
to call up (Genesis 4:26);
to intercede (Job 22:10);
to mediate (Isaiah 53:10);
to consult (1 Samuel 28:6);
to beseech (Exodus 32:11);

God Bless You!**
 
Realcatholicgk said:
**The Church Fathers speak of it as:
the elevation of the mind to God with a view to asking proper things from Him (St. John Damascene, “De fide”, III, xxiv, in P.G., XCIV, 1090);
communing and conversing with God (St. Gregory of Nyssa, “De oratione dom.”, in P.G., XLIV, 1125);
talking with God (St. John Chrysostom, “Hom. xxx in Gen.”, n. 5, in P.G., LIII, 280).
**
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Basically I would respond that these three Fathers, by describing prayer as "the elevation of the mind to God … ", “communing and conversing with God”, and “talking with God”, are not ruling out the possibility of prayer being directed to Mary and the saints.

(Sorry if that isn’t a huge help. :o)
 
japhy said:
  1. If we can ask our physically living brothers and sisters in Christ to pray for us, we can ask our spiritually living (though, in the eyes of the world, physically dead) brothers and sisters in Christ to pray for us as well.
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Here’s my problem with this. You are spiritually alive (I trust), as am I, and yet if I wish to communicate with you at all, for example to ask you to pray for me, I must do so physically, not spiritually.

Obviously prayer to someone who is not physically alive is completly different from all of our normal human-to-human interactions. The means we must use normally (physical), are impossible to use in praying to the Saints.

So, I guess my question is, since we are unable to establish spiritual communication between those who are both spiritually & physically alive, why would that change when one of the parties becomes physically dead?
 
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Realcatholicgk:
We both know that:

That verse only shows that Jesus opposed public prayer! What Jesus was opposing was those phonies that pray out-loud in public places as if they are of some religious authority. We have seen people do this on college campuses where they pray loud and talk loud and condemn all of the passerbys.
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The verse also shows the one to whom Jesus directs His people to pray—the Father. :hmmm:
 
(This is just my take on the matter… I’m not an official theologian.)
Ethan_Enoch said:
If I wish to communicate with you … I must do so physically, not spiritually. Obviously prayer to someone who is not physically alive is completely different from all of our normal human-to-human interactions. The means we must use normally (physical), are impossible to use in praying to the Saints.
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There’s an old joke about two people trying to communicate via ESP. After they fail, the first guy says to the second: “Well, I sent the message, so the problem must be on your end!”

That’s probably not so far from the truth. The means we use to speak to God are not physical (although they are often accompanied by physical actions or things), they are spiritual: we worship in spirit and truth, for example. A prayer I say silently is heard by my heavenly Father just as well as a prayer said out loud. So God is able to “hear” what we cannot.
Ethan_Enoch said:
Since we are unable to establish spiritual communication between those who are both spiritually & physically alive, why would that change when one of the parties becomes physically dead?
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Because something has changed on the “receiving” end! There have been cases between people, both living, who feel this sort of connection and assurance; it is either a momentary grace given them by God, or (more likely, in my opinion) a mutual connection to God, i.e., God making it known to one what the other has prayed.

This is not to say that the dead in Christ are God or are gods, but that they have become partakers of the Divine nature in a way which we have not (yet). Their souls are freed from sin completely – not just free juridically, but free from the effects, even. They are utterly and completely attuned to God and His will. There is nothing hindering them from exercising their spiritual attributes to the utmost. If, then, it pleases God to let them hear us and respond to us, by His almighty power and in accord with His perfect will, so be it!
 
sandusky said:
Pray to God.
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Ah, but Jesus didn’t say “Pray to God”, he said “pray to your Father”. Now the Son is not the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit the Father: that is basic trinitarian theology. So is Jesus, in so doing, forbidding us from praying to his own person and to the person of the Holy Spirit?
 
japhy said:
Ah, but Jesus didn’t say “Pray to God”, he said “pray to your Father”. Now the Son is not the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit the Father: that is basic trinitarian theology. So is Jesus, in so doing, forbidding us from praying to his own person and to the person of the Holy Spirit?
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Where I come from, this is called “quibbling.”

Go back through the OT, and note to whom the righteous address all prayer. Continue that notation in the NT.
 
sandusky said:
Where I come from, this is called “quibbling.”

Go back through the OT, and note to whom the righteous address all prayer. Continue that notation in the NT.
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John; Chapter 14
1
1 2 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You have faith in God; have faith also in me. 2 In my Father’s house there are many dwelling places. If there were not, would I have told you that I am going to prepare a place for you? 3 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back again and take you to myself, so that where I am you also may be. 4 Where (I) am going you know the way.” 4 5 Thomas said to him, “Master, we do not know where you are going; how can we know the way?” 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way and the truth 5 and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you know me, then you will also know my Father. 6 From now on you do know him and have seen him.” 8 Philip said to him, “Master, show us the Father, 7 and that will be enough for us.” 9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you for so long a time and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me is doing his works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else, believe because of the works themselves. 12 Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes in me will do the works that I do, and will do greater ones than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it. (John. CH;14)
 
sandusky said:
Pray to God.
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AGAIN, there are many different ways to define pray.
A prayer to Jesus or the Holy Spirit, or to Mary, or the saints is simply asking them to join our actual prayer - which is ulimately to God alone - as is theirs as well.
 
Prayer to Jesus is as correct as praying to God our Father, not something that is wrong to do

As I previously posted;
“I am the way and the truth 5 and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you know me, then you will also know my Father. 6 From now on you do know him and have seen him.” 8 Philip said to him, “Master, show us the Father, 7 and that will be enough for us.” 9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you for so long a time and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me is doing his works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else, believe because of the works themselves. 12 Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes in me will do the works that I do, and will do greater ones than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it. (John. CH;14)

As far as prayer to the saints, the prayers are not in worship to the saints or Mary but in asking their prayers on our behalf also. Although I believe Sandusky knows that already anyway but for those who may be confused I point it out. But the point must be made the ONLY one who is Worshiped in prayer is God.
The argument that we should not pray in asking for the supportive prayers of the saints or Mary because they are dead but claiming it is OK to ask the living to pray for us is a bit ridiculous. If we believe in Heaven and the salvation of those who we accept are in heaven, we do not consider them “dead” but in their eternal life and as such, responsive through that spiritual awareness. This is more, not less than what intersession an earthly being could offer on another’s behalf. To say they are “dead” is to deny our belief in the salvation of all those whom we believe to be Holy.
 
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