Proof for praying to saints

[rocketrob]

As a former protestant, I can tell you that Fox has a point. So, I wouldn’t be too quick to discount this obseration. Its important to figure out what the real question or issue is that you might be discussing with someone. Is it the concept that Saints are somehow being worshipped, that Christ’s salvific work or role as sole mediator is somehow being diminished, or is it just a general problem with trying to ‘communicate with the dead?’

rocketrob

**
Hi Rock,

Try to be nicer. I don’t think you should call Protestants “dead” .It is just a problem trying to communicate with people we impose their beliefs on your practices. o

God Bless**

Realcatholicgk,
I did no such thing. I was referring to the protestant position, which Ethan Enoch has brought up multiple times in this thread, that asking prayers for intercession is ‘trying to communicate with the dead.’

I think twb1621 got my point.

rocketrob

 

[Peter_J]

Realcatholicgk,
I did no such thing. I was referring to the protestant position, which Ethan Enoch has brought up multiple times in this thread, that asking prayers for intercession is ‘trying to communicate with the dead.’

I think twb1621 got my point.

rocketrob

I understood what you were saying. Whether Realcatholicgk misunderstood you, or whether he was making a joke, I couldn’t say.

 

[rocketrob]

I understood what you were saying. Whether Realcatholicgk misunderstood you, or whether he was making a joke, I couldn’t say.

Well, if nothing else, it proves the point that precise communication is key when discussing these types of issues…especially online, or in e-mail.

rocketrob

 

[twb1621]

Ok, did I say something offensive to someone?

 

[pathfinder7]

**
Protestants Bias?** freesmileys.org/smileys/laughing006.gif Who would have thunk?

well… but you know… its kind of our fault Protestants don’t like our religion. I mean… well, as a group, we aren’t the friendliest bunch, are we?

and then there are other things… (etc, etc.)… :whacky:

 

[pathfinder7]

The Wedding at Cana is a good example of the intercession of saints. ion.

Huh???

 

[BMSODM]

Huh???

I think they mean…

John 2:3 - Jesus knew the wine was gone, but invites and responds to Mary’s intercession. God desires our lesser mediation and responds to it because He is a living and loving God.

John 2:5 - Mary intercedes on behalf of those at the wedding feast and tells them to do whatever Jesus tells them. Because Mary is our perfect model of faith, we too intercede on behalf of our brothers and sisters.

John 2:11 - in fact, it was Mary’s intercession that started Jesus’ ministry. His hour had not yet come, yet Jesus responds to Mary’s intercession. Even though He could do it all by Himself, God wants to work with His children.

I also think a better example in scripture of saintly intercession is…

Matt. 17:1-3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30-31 – deceased Moses and Elijah appear at the Transfiguration to converse with Jesus in the presence of Peter, James and John (these may be the two “witnesses” John refers to in Rev. 11:3). Nothing in Scripture ever suggests that God abhors or cuts off communication between the living in heaven and the living on earth. To the contrary, God encourages communication within the communion of saints. Moses and Elijah’s appearance on earth also teach us that the saints in heaven have capabilities that far surpass our limitations on earth.

Grace and Peace unto you***

 

[Peter_J]

I think they mean…

John 2:3 - Jesus knew the wine was gone, but invites and responds to Mary’s intercession. God desires our lesser mediation and responds to it because He is a living and loving God.

John 2:5 - Mary intercedes on behalf of those at the wedding feast and tells them to do whatever Jesus tells them. Because Mary is our perfect model of faith, we too intercede on behalf of our brothers and sisters.

John 2:11 - in fact, it was Mary’s intercession that started Jesus’ ministry. His hour had not yet come, yet Jesus responds to Mary’s intercession. Even though He could do it all by Himself, God wants to work with His children.

Yes, that was also my interpretation of JesuXPIPassio’s statement.

 

[pathfinder7]

I think they mean…

John 2:3 - Jesus knew the wine was gone, but invites and responds to Mary’s intercession. God desires our lesser mediation and responds to it because He is a living and loving God.

John 2:5 - Mary intercedes on behalf of those at the wedding feast and tells them to do whatever Jesus tells them. Because Mary is our perfect model of faith, we too intercede on behalf of our brothers and sisters.

John 2:11 - in fact, it was Mary’s intercession that started Jesus’ ministry. His hour had not yet come, yet Jesus responds to Mary’s intercession. Even though He could do it all by Himself, God wants to work with His children.

I also think a better example in scripture of saintly intercession is…

Matt. 17:1-3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30-31 – deceased Moses and Elijah appear at the Transfiguration to converse with Jesus in the presence of Peter, James and John (these may be the two “witnesses” John refers to in Rev. 11:3). Nothing in Scripture ever suggests that God abhors or cuts off communication between the living in heaven and the living on earth. To the contrary, God encourages communication within the communion of saints. Moses and Elijah’s appearance on earth also teach us that the saints in heaven have capabilities that far surpass our limitations on earth.

Grace and Peace unto you***

thank you. That explains it very well… and it lilfted me up to read it…

God bless…

 

[BMSODM]

Blessings***

I find these verses also very interesting.

Matt. 26:53 – Jesus says He can call upon the assistance of twelve legions of angels. If Jesus said He could ask for the assistance of angel saints, then why can’t we, who are called to imitate Jesus in word and in deed. And, in Matt. 22:30, Jesus says we will be “like angels in heaven.” This could mean human saints (like the angel saints) can be called upon to assist people on earth. God allows and encourages this interaction between his family members. We see an example of this when we read…

Matt. 27:52-53 - at Jesus’ passion, many saints were raised and went into the city to appear and presumably interact with the people, just as Jesus did after His resurrection.

It would seem to me that if there was no involvement from the souls that have gone on, there would be no need for them to appear to many.

James 5:16; Proverbs 15:8, 29 - the prayers of the righteous (the saints) have powerful effects. This is why we ask for their prayers. How much more powerful are the saints’ prayers in heaven, in whom righteousness has been perfected?

Peace be with you all***

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Hey real, do you know if that is still the case with Father Corapi having cancer or was that rediagnosed?

I have been trying to get with Fr Dennis (My priest friend from his order) to get the truth, not the “public” information type thing. I will let you know!

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Realcatholicgk,
I did no such thing. I was referring to the protestant position, which Ethan Enoch has brought up multiple times in this thread, that asking prayers for intercession is ‘trying to communicate with the dead.’

I think twb1621 got my point.

rocketrob

**Oh Rocket,

I got your point, You just didn’t get mine!
I used that remark to imply that trying to teach protestants anything was like trying to teach the dead! PeterJ almost got it but was unsure. Ethan drove me crazy for two days I am glad he had to take a break for book learning. One thing He is reasonable, no attacking just stubborn like us! **

 

[Realcatholicgk]

well… but you know… its kind of our fault Protestants don’t like our religion. I mean… well, as a group, we aren’t the friendliest bunch, are we?

and then there are other things… (etc, etc.)… :whacky:

**
Hi path,
It isn’t that actually,
I would have to say that if your group isn’t friendly I would be suprised. My group of Catholic friends here and in real life (sorry friends you know what I mean! ) are very friendly. I have offered to help any Protestant break away from their false beliefs and come into the fulliness of christianty through the Catholic Church. Path, did you know of the estimated 61,000 protestant denominations with 1,375 different doctrines and dogmas don’t even agree with ewach other. Many considers other denomination to be cults, they fight argue and dislike their own groups. The one and only one thing they all agree with is the Jesus’ Body here on earth, The RCC is “wrong”

I ask you if Jesus is the Head of the 2,000 year old church and their religions started 500 years ago and have cecome that distorted in that 'short a period of time" what would a doctor say if uou said “Hey Doctor I have this growth on my body it keeps geting bigger and dividing every day!” I am sure He would say “That is cancer!”

When we attempt to help our Protestant brothers and sisters see the logic. They think we are being unkind.

If I was following a church beling deceived by Satan (Who else would want to destrory the “real” church? Who else would want to take souls from God? Who else could make the followers blind to the words even written in their altered versions of the “real” Bible. There are over 100 now that the SDA made their personal version.

We want to save their souls from damination, we offer to instruct, guide and correct their twisted logic and distorted views and beliefs. If that isn’t friendly that the saints in heaven mustn’t hear our many prayers offered for their conversion.

I rather think that they are the unfriendly ones.

But I love them and know that these fine, caring, decent people deserve to be saved! **

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Ok, did I say something offensive to someone?

**twb, I would hope not! :tsktsk: Be nice. I rather think it is another problem. A couple of the other posters asked me to approach you about it. Can I ask you a question? It is asked with brotherly love (I am from philly)!
The “others” wanted to know eeerrrr … do you bathe? I mean … eerrrr…often? There has been these odor rumors.

You don’t have to answer, just correct the problem and maybe they will talk to you again.

God Bless**

 

[BMSODM]

BLESSINGS***

" I have offered to help any Protestant break away from their false beliefs and come into the fulliness of christianty through the Catholic Church."

LOL…I wonder why this doesn’t work? I mean I offered to pick my sons friends out in school so they wouldn’t keep on getting in trouble and they would get better grades. I’m sure I can pick out friends that would be a greater asset to them but they insist that Im trying to be overbearing and controlling,who woulda thunk it?

The reason they don’t receive our so-called love is…FEAR!
Satan has deceived them and put fear into there hearts. There Trust is lacking and there scared. Kinda like my sons with there friends. There fear of what others will think handcuffs them and keeps them in these circles of friends. If they didnt care about what others thought and Trusted there fathers advice, they would see they would have a much more profitable life.

The only thing we can do is find a different way to lead them. Like with my sons, I allow them to make there mistakes but at the same time I indirectly plant seeds across there paths by using examples of things in life that are good. I talk about others and there situations and show them the good and bad and the result of there choices. You see Im telling them, without directing it to them. It gives them a chance to digest it and think about it. You see they are doing all the work and think they are the ones who decided to change, when in fact it was them that were just using there own logic off the seed I planted.

Its easy for a child to change when they think there the ones who did the changing…

Grace unto you***

 

[Realcatholicgk]

BLESSINGS***

" I have offered to help any Protestant break away from their false beliefs and come into the fulliness of christianty through the Catholic Church."

LOL…I wonder why this doesn’t work? I mean I offered to pick my sons friends out in school so they wouldn’t keep on getting in trouble and they would get better grades. I’m sure I can pick out friends that would be a greater asset to them but they insist that Im trying to be overbearing and controlling,who woulda thunk it?

The reason they don’t receive our so-called love is…FEAR!
Satan has deceived them and put fear into there hearts. There Trust is lacking and there scared. Kinda like my sons with there friends. There fear of what others will think handcuffs them and keeps them in these circles of friends. If they didnt care about what others thought and Trusted there fathers advice, they would see they would have a much more profitable life.

The only thing we can do is find a different way to lead them. Like with my sons, I allow them to make there mistakes but at the same time I indirectly plant seeds across there paths by using examples of things in life that are good. I talk about others and there situations and show them the good and bad and the result of there choices. You see Im telling them, without directing it to them. It gives them a chance to digest it and think about it. You see they are doing all the work and think they are the ones who decided to change, when in fact it was them that were just using there own logic off the seed I planted.

Its easy for a child to change when they think there the ones who did the changing…

Grace unto you***

** BM,

Actually my parents told my brother and I who we could or couldn’t be friends with. We had no option. That is called Love. They explained why they made these type decisions and although there might have been some kids we would have enjoyed playing with it was forbidden by our parents so we accepted their authority. I obeyed my parents in all things as long as I lived in their house. They set the rules I followed them. And if, I or my brother “forgot” we got reminders which now days would if reported to the Department of Human Services removed us from that loving, nurturing, Catholic home and putting us into foster care.
I am sure I could have had more fun, but that might not have been such a good thing. In my life time, I have never used any illegal drugs. I was a highschool counselor. Pregeant 14, 15 yeard olds. Drug using teens. All with parents that either didn’t care, or couldn’t understand where they went wrong.

Our church, should be like a stern parent saying “You can’t do that” rather than “Jesus nor Mary would do that. They would do something else. If you do that you will still be loved because God loves you.” IMO we shouldn’t “understand” others opinions etc, what good does that do? Give them a warm feeling as their soul gets closer to Hell? I say shake them and let them know they are wrong. I was in Walmark the other day. Some one “mentioned” Obama’s election. I said in a loud voice, “We are murdering two children every minute in the United States and you think a new persident will make things better. God is angry with our nation!” No one replied and I got several weird looks. I smiled as I left!

It might not have changed a thing but maybe it did. Either way they knew what was important to me!

God Bless

**

 

[BMSODM]

** BM,

Actually my parents told my brother and I who we could or couldn’t be friends with. We had no option. That is called Love. They explained why they made these type decisions and although there might have been some kids we would have enjoyed playing with it was forbidden by our parents so we accepted their authority. I obeyed my parents in all things as long as I lived in their house. They set the rules I followed them. And if, I or my brother “forgot” we got reminders which now days would if reported to the Department of Human Services removed us from that loving, nurturing, Catholic home and putting us into foster care.
I am sure I could have had more fun, but that might not have been such a good thing. In my life time, I have never used any illegal drugs. I was a highschool counselor. Pregeant 14, 15 yeard olds. Drug using teens. All with parents that either didn’t care, or couldn’t understand where they went wrong.

Our church, should be like a stern parent saying “You can’t do that” rather than “Jesus nor Mary would do that. They would do something else. If you do that you will still be loved because God loves you.” IMO we shouldn’t “understand” others opinions etc, what good does that do? Give them a warm feeling as their soul gets closer to Hell? I say shake them and let them know they are wrong. I was in Walmark the other day. Some one “mentioned” Obama’s election. I said in a loud voice, “We are murdering two children every minute in the United States and you think a new persident will make things better. God is angry with our nation!” No one replied and I got several weird looks. I smiled as I left!

It might not have changed a thing but maybe it did. Either way they knew what was important to me!

God Bless

**

Blessings***

I guess that is why there are two sides to every coin…lol…

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

If He can make one vessel for honour and one for dishonour, then it could be probable that He can make one for compassionate Love and one for tough Love…

“Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.”

Meek, Merciful, Peacemakers will inherit the earth by being able to reach the lost and will obtain mercy for themselves as well as the ones they have inherited and truelly will be the perfect image of God by becoming His devoted Children…

Peace unto you***

 

[Ecoclimber]

We don’t worship Mary and the saints as “God”. In Catholic theology, there are three separate categories of worship:

1)*** latria*** - adoration which is due to God alone;

2)* hyperduliae* - (this is substantially less the the “latria” which is given to God) - it is a special veneration given to Mary in view of her dignity as the Mother of God and her fullness of grace.

1. duliae - this is the veneration given to the angels and saints.

So you see, the problem arises only when one is unaware of the multiple uses and meanings of the word “worship” in Catholic terminology.
(In secular terminology also, “worship” is used in various ways. Eg. " He worships the ground she walks on.")

Sorry that I haven’t been responsive but lately I’ve been in poor health and other situations arose that I couldn’t follow up on some questions I had so it may appear disjointed. I am trying to find my way back to RC but keep hitting the same road blocks that caused me to leave RC in the first place. I just need clarification to some questions.

In the above quote from a response and I hope it comes out right, my question is that people in third world countries who have limited theological background and may have come from worshiping other deities really know the difference between the concept of worship and veneration. I have seen a statue of the Virgin Mary being paraded around with local villagers tossing flowers at the statue and touching it as though it had special curative powers. In my opinion, this can cause indigenous people to fall in idolatry as God commands that He alone is to be worshiped and I don’t believe that many villagers can make that distinction which can leave themselves open to demonic deception and a corruption of clear orthodox doctrine which is one of the reason among Protestant brethren for objecting to this practice.

Finally, in the New Testament Paul states categorically over and over again that all believers are saints which is irrefutable…to many references to post. So where does the RC based their practice on canonization in scripture where only people who the RC believes led a holy life while on earth and when prayed too perform a require number of miraculous interventions are canonized or considered as saints? According to St. Paul, all who have died in Christ are saints.

2 Cor 1:1
To the church of God in Corinth, together with all the saints throughout Achaia:

Rom 15:25-27
Now, however, I am on my way to Jerusalem in the service of the saints there. 26 For Macedonia and Achaia were pleased to make a contribution for the poor among the saints in Jerusalem.

 

[P10]

Ecoclimber,
Yes, the two verses you quoted, and the many more you refer to in passing, indicate that St Paul considered living, faithful Christians to be ‘saints’. The root meaning is one who is sanctified, set apart as holy. All Christians are ‘saints’, therefore, by virtue of their baptism. The Church teaches that baptized believers, who live a holy life and die in a state of grace will be welcomed into heaven. By ‘canonizing’ some of these believers who have died, the Church is not making them ‘saints’, the Church is declaring her assurance that they are, in fact, in heaven.

 

[Chancellare]

Which is my point.

Where are prayers to the dead addressed?

Are you saying Jesus is dead, together with his saints?