Proof for praying to saints

[BMSODM]

In most protestant denominations, they excommunicate people more readily if they are unrepentant sinners who insist on sinning after being warned. Why can’t the RCC do that? You are the one true church, right? My old Lutheran Church excommunicated a Pastor for cheating on his wife. They also excommunicated my Aunt for living in sin with her boyfriend.

If these so-called phoney churches can practice discression like that and keep the congregations clear of such unrepentant sinners, why can’t you if you have the true church?

Blessings***

You asked “Why can’t the RCC do that?” Because were is the fruit in that? Look at the protestant to see what happens when that is done. Division! Thats the fruit and that my friend is bad fruit.

You hit the nail on the head when you said, “you are the ONE True church”, unification is the fruit of the RCC and that my friend is good fruit.

Just curious what happened to your aunt? What did she end up doing? Did she end up repenting and returning to her church or did she end up joining another church or did she just quit going to church all together?

Peace unto you***

 

[BMSODM]

**
Like you say once we start where would we stop? That may be the reason the Church doesn’t excommunicate often. I really think murdering children is much worse than smoking or drunk driving, but I do understand your point. I already said ,any church that was perfect, wouldn’t let me in anyway!
Reference the “Ye without sin, cast the first stone” When Jesus said that he was hit in the back of the head with a stone. Shocked, He turned around and said “Mom, what are you doing here?”
That is an old alterboy joke! Must have heard it for the first time 50 years ago or more. Might earn me 10,000 in purgatory, If Jesus doesn’t have a sense of Humor. It could get me burnt at a stake here on this thread! **

Blessings***

Love the joke, haven’t heard that one, pretty funny

On a more serious note, I don’t see the difference between selling and or using a product that kills millions, then abortion. A life is a life and murder is to take innocent blood and there both innocent and the gospel tells us a lie is equal to a murder so I would respectfully disagree with you on that. I would agree that when we look at it through fleshly eyes it appears to be worse but if looked at it in Spirit there is no difference.

We cant excommunicate members of the body unless there doing something to abolish the body or divide it. If there not a teacher then there a patient and a patient shouldn’t be removed from a hospital, expecially when there in a postion of life and death.

Grace unto you***

 

[Chris_LaRock]

Blessings***

You asked “Why can’t the RCC do that?” Because were is the fruit in that? Look at the protestant to see what happens when that is done. Division! Thats the fruit and that my friend is bad fruit.

(You don’t see the advantage in ousting someone who is facilitating murder?)

You hit the nail on the head when you said, “you are the ONE True church”, unification is the fruit of the RCC and that my friend is good fruit.

Just curious what happened to your aunt? What did she end up doing? Did she end up repenting and returning to her church or did she end up joining another church or did she just quit going to church all together?

(She went to a baptist church for a while and is now associated with Jehovah’s Witnesses. I snuck some “apostate” literature exposing the JWs into her luggage when she was visiting my family. )

Peace unto you***

 

[twb1621]

Chris_LaRock:
I gotta say, You do have commendable enthusiasm and for a non-catholic, you might need some restraints but you would be a heck of a “pit bull” on the side of the Catholic Church. :knight2:

 

[BMSODM]

Chris…

You replied:* “She went to a baptist church for a while and is now associated with Jehovah’s Witnesses. I snuck some “apostate” literature exposing the JWs into her luggage when she was visiting my family.”*

Thats my point Chris, she was excommunicated from a Luthern Church (in Christ’s fold) then with no guidence she was basically thrown out among the wolves. She managed to find a Baptist branch off the vine for a time but because she was left to lean on her own understanding she ended up in the devil’s den(JW’s).

I would have considered your point that excommunicating was a good thing (Good Fruit) if in fact she repented and returned to the original church. But in fact it produce the opposite, division and chao’s (Bad Fruit). Ultimately she has fallen from grace because she was in sin and now is a disciple of satan. How does this profit the kingdom?

You see, a sheep on its own cant defend itself against the wolves.
Even if that sheep is making poor choices it should always remain with the flock. Because the Shepard is always close by and only the shepard can protect the sheep. There is safety in numbers.

You asked: “(You don’t see the advantage in ousting someone who is facilitating murder?)”

No I dont. I dont see how if you know someone is sick you can throw them out of the hospital. I can only see throwing a doctor (teacher) out of a hospital (church) for misleading(willfully hurting) the patients.

Peace unto you***

 

[Chris_LaRock]

Chris…

You replied:* “She went to a baptist church for a while and is now associated with Jehovah’s Witnesses. I snuck some “apostate” literature exposing the JWs into her luggage when she was visiting my family.”*

Thats my point Chris, she was excommunicated from a Luthern Church (in Christ’s fold) then with no guidence she was basically thrown out among the wolves. She managed to find a Baptist branch off the vine for a time but because she was left to lean on her own understanding she ended up in the devil’s den(JW’s).

I would have considered your point that excommunicating was a good thing (Good Fruit) if in fact she repented and returned to the original church. But in fact it produce the opposite, division and chao’s (Bad Fruit). Ultimately she has fallen from grace because she was in sin and now is a disciple of satan. How does this profit the kingdom?

You see, a sheep on its own cant defend itself against the wolves.
Even if that sheep is making poor choices it should always remain with the flock. Because the Shepard is always close by and only the shepard can protect the sheep. There is safety in numbers.

You asked: “(You don’t see the advantage in ousting someone who is facilitating murder?)”

No I dont. I dont see how if you know someone is sick you can throw them out of the hospital. I can only see throwing a doctor (teacher) out of a hospital (church) for misleading(willfully hurting) the patients.

Peace unto you***

Jesus said there are two groups of people. Sheep and goats. People who help to facilitate abortion and pro-abortion laws are goats.

Does a Catholic actually have to be caught performing abortions themselves to be excommunicated? Would an abortionist be excommunicated?

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Jesus said there are two groups of people. Sheep and goats. People who help to facilitate abortion and pro-abortion laws are goats.

Does a Catholic actually have to be caught performing abortions themselves to be excommunicated? Would an abortionist be excommunicated?

**Hi Chris,

It is sad to say, but I am not sure if even an known abortionist would be excommunicated. I also don’t think it would “matter” to them if they were. They can’t have “love” in their hearts and tear a little innocent child’s body apart. What kind of animals are these people? I don’t think goats! More like vipers!
I actually heard of a abortionist who “baptised” the babies he aborted before he placed their bodys into medical waste containers! How sick is this man? How tormented must his soul be!
My God, my God, hear your people crying out! End this evil!

I, myself ,was a soldier. I killed 54 enemy soldiers. Even having tasted the thrill of killing! I could “never” kill an innocent person, man, woman, or child.

Chris, Lets pray for their souls. I would like to think that the murdered babies are! Because of the innocent victims, I sincerely hope there is eternal damnation ready for the truly evil people of the world! I would get no joy from it, just satifaction for my soul!

God Bless. May you obtain peace in your heart.**

 

[Chris_LaRock]

**
I actually heard of a abortionist who “baptised” the babies he aborted before he placed their bodys into medical waste containers! How sick is this man? How tormented must his soul be!**

Oh, that would be late-term abortionist george tiller. He’s being prosecuted for performing 19 post-viability abortions without abtaining third-party physician signatures to verify the mother’s health was at risk. He really is a sicko!

 

[hays1122]

Dear Elizabeth: Praise be Jesus that you are open to ideas.
Your question is " is there biblical proof that we should pray to saints?"
First I assume you believe in Jesus as Son of God.
2nd, there are several instances in the Gospel that Jesus listened to intercessory act from people surrounding him. I can recall some of these: 1) the wedding at Cana. Jesus performed his 1st miracle even it was “Not His time yet.” Because of her LOve for His mom, Mary, water was turned into wind. 2) Recall Lazarus brought back to life? It was through her LOve for another Mary, Marta and Lazarus himself, who were Jesus’ childhood friends that infused Jesus make this miracle.

There are several more, the two Gospel situations are examples that God Himself listens to the PRAYER of FRIENDS = the Saints.

oscbsap

But Mary was right there at the wedding.She was present. And Jesus talked to Lazarus’s sister Mary in person.
These were not “saints” as we are now told to pray to saints.
Jesus didn’t ask for Samuel or king David to help. Jesus didn’t tell his disciples to ask Elijah or Moses for help.
In Luke 11:2 Jesus told the disciples how to pray.
“And he said to them: When you pray, say: Father, hallowed be thy name.”
He didn’t say,Pray to the saints such as Moses,Elijah,Abraham,King David,Samual…
the list could be endless. Jesus said pray,“Our Father”.
And he sure didn’t say pray by asking mother Mary to intercede.
These are facts.
I’ve been coming here and reading what I can to learn about the Catholic faith. And I still don’t get it. Praying to saints and Mary doesn’t fit what Jesus taught his disciples.

 

[BMSODM]

Jesus said there are two groups of people. Sheep and goats. People who help to facilitate abortion and pro-abortion laws are goats.

Does a Catholic actually have to be caught performing abortions themselves to be excommunicated? Would an abortionist be excommunicated?

Blessings***

Ok Chris now I’m getting a little confused by your responses. You use the scripture were Jesus says there are two groups, goats and sheep but you disregard the scriptures were Jesus says:

*28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest:*

The Word of God isn’t a buffett. We dont have the choice to pick and choose our food…

peace unto you***

 

[guanophore]

Jesus said there are two groups of people. Sheep and goats. People who help to facilitate abortion and pro-abortion laws are goats.

Does a Catholic actually have to be caught performing abortions themselves to be excommunicated? Would an abortionist be excommunicated?

No, the act in itself triggers excommunication. Thinking, planning,and intending to commit the act does the same.

 

[guanophore]

But Mary was right there at the wedding.She was present. And Jesus talked to Lazarus’s sister Mary in person.
These were not “saints” as we are now told to pray to saints.
Jesus didn’t ask for Samuel or king David to help.

The Catholic Church considers them still present. We don’t believe they stop being members of Christ’s body when they pass from the veil of flesh.

Jesus didn’t tell his disciples to ask Elijah or Moses for help.

Why do you think he was so careful to have His apostles see them with Him? He could have gone off by Himself! He was showing them something important.

In Luke 11:2 Jesus told the disciples how to pray.
“And he said to them: When you pray, say: Father, hallowed be thy name.”
He didn’t say,Pray to the saints such as Moses,Elijah,Abraham,King David,Samual…
the list could be endless.

It is a long list! Why do you think God allowed Samuel to appear to Saul?

Jesus said pray,“Our Father”.
And he sure didn’t say pray by asking mother Mary to intercede.
These are facts.

What happened at the wedding in Cana is an equal “fact”.

I’ve been coming here and reading what I can to learn about the Catholic faith. And I still don’t get it. Praying to saints and Mary doesn’t fit what Jesus taught his disciples.

It seems this way to you because you are separated from the Aposotlic succession. All you have left is what is contained in Scripture.

Acts 2:41-42
“They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.”

You have lost the portion of the Apostles’ teaching that is not in scripture, the Liturgy of the Eucharist, and the prayers of the Apostles. The Apostolic Churches have not lost these things, and that is why all of them share these practices in common. In an effor to jettison the corruption, the Reformers also separated themselves from this portion of the Sacred Tradition.

 

[Chris_LaRock]

No, the act in itself triggers excommunication. Thinking, planning,and intending to commit the act does the same.

Can’t you as Roman Catholics understand my concern here? Your church speaks out against the evils of the culture of death, while many of it’s people are actively participating in those evils. Isn’t it understandable that someone might want them excommunicated?

This thread is about saints, so I have to ask: How would the saints view this situation where unrepentant people are allowed to remain in the church, while actively supporting evil practices?

 

[Realcatholicgk]

**A Christmas Tale **

When four of Santa’s elves got sick, the trainee elves did not produce toys as fast as the regular ones, and Santa began to feel the Pre-Christmas pressure.

Then Mrs. Claus told Santa her Mother was coming to visit, which stressed Santa even more. When he went to harness the reindeer, he found that three of them were about to give birth and two others had jumped the fence and were out, only heaven knows where.

---

**Then when he began to load the sleigh, one of the floorboards cracked, the toy bag fell to the ground and all the toys were scattered Frustrated, Santa went in the house for a cup of apple cider and a shot of rum. When he went to the cupboard, he discovered the elves had drank all the cider and hidden the liquor. **

---

In his frustration, he accidentally dropped the cider jug, and it broke into hundreds of little glass pieces all over the kitchen floor. He went to get the broom and found the mice had eaten all the straw off the end of the broom.

---

**Just then the doorbell rang, and irritated Santa marched to the door, yanked it open, and there stood a little angel with a great big Christmas tree. **

---

**The angel said very cheerfully, ‘Merry Christmas, Santa. Isn’t this a lovely day? I have a beautiful tree for you Where would you like me to stick it?’ **

---

And so my friends began the tradition of the little angel on top of the Christmas tree.

 

[hays1122]

The Catholic Church considers them still present. We don’t believe they stop being members of Christ’s body when they pass from the veil of flesh.

Why do you think he was so careful to have His apostles see them with Him? He could have gone off by Himself! He was showing them something important.

It is a long list! Why do you think God allowed Samuel to appear to Saul?

What happened at the wedding in Cana is an equal “fact”.

It seems this way to you because you are separated from the Aposotlic succession. All you have left is what is contained in Scripture.

Acts 2:41-42
“They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.”

You have lost the portion of the Apostles’ teaching that is not in scripture, the Liturgy of the Eucharist, and the prayers of the Apostles. The Apostolic Churches have not lost these things, and that is why all of them share these practices in common. In an effor to jettison the corruption, the Reformers also separated themselves from this portion of the Sacred Tradition.

I know the wedding in cana is a fact. Why pull one thing out and make it seem as if I’m saying something that isn’t true.What I said is that Mary was there present. Yes everything in the bible is a fact.

 

[hays1122]

It is a long list! Why do you think God allowed Samuel to appear to Saul?

.

Why did God allow Samuel to appear to Saul?
I never really thought as to Why God allowed it.
That’s a whole other topic. It’s very interesting when I read the story again. Samuel came out of the ground.
" The woman said, “I see a spirit coming up out of the ground.” “What does he look like?” he asked. “An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said. Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground."
2 Samuel 28:14
Then in verse 19,Samuel tells Saul that he’ll be with him.
“and tomorrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me”
Where was Samuel? Not in heaven since he came out of the ground. Yet he was wearing a robe.
Very interesting!

 

[guanophore]

Can’t you as Roman Catholics understand my concern here? Your church speaks out against the evils of the culture of death, while many of it’s people are actively participating in those evils. Isn’t it understandable that someone might want them excommunicated?

Of course! What I am saying is that they have excommunicated themselves. The duty of the Church is the teach the truth, not to punish those who refuse to embrace it. Their punishment is from God.

This thread is about saints, so I have to ask: How would the saints view this situation where unrepentant people are allowed to remain in the church, while actively supporting evil practices?

You are not understanding, Chris. They have excommunicated themselves by their actions. By default, they are no longer in the Church. The Apostles taught that we should avoid such people.

 

[Chris_LaRock]

Of course! What I am saying is that they have excommunicated themselves. The duty of the Church is the teach the truth, not to punish those who refuse to embrace it. Their punishment is from God.

You are not understanding, Chris. They have excommunicated themselves by their actions. By default, they are no longer in the Church. The Apostles taught that we should avoid such people.

By excommunication, I mean formally removing them as members of the church. I’m not talking about some sort of invisible, mystical seperation that takes place when someone falls into apostacy. Allowing pro-abortion political leaders to remain in the church in spite of the deaths they are causing sends mixed messages.

 

[guanophore]

I know the wedding in cana is a fact. Why pull one thing out and make it seem as if I’m saying something that isn’t true.What I said is that Mary was there present. Yes everything in the bible is a fact.

Ok, I am glad we are in agreement on this point. Now, what do you see happening at the wedding?

Why did God allow Samuel to appear to Saul?
I never really thought as to Why God allowed it.

Now might be a good time.

What is clear is the departed can and do know what is going on here on earth, and are able, by God’s grace, to interact with us.

That’s a whole other topic. It’s very interesting when I read the story again. Samuel came out of the ground.
" The woman said, “I see a spirit coming up out of the ground.” “What does he look like?” he asked. “An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said. Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground."
2 Samuel 28:14
Then in verse 19,Samuel tells Saul that he’ll be with him.
“and tomorrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me”
Where was Samuel? Not in heaven since he came out of the ground. Yet he was wearing a robe.
Very interesting!

Yes. The gates of heaven had not yet been opened, so he was in the place that the Jews called the place of the righteous dead. That is the same place Jesus told the thief he would be with Him.

My point is that Saul could have a conversation with Samuel, and Samuel knew what was going on in the world, as well as God’s plan for Saul.

 

[guanophore]

By excommunication, I mean formally removing them as members of the church.

They have already done this to themselves, by engaging in an act that causes excommunication.

I’m not talking about some sort of invisible, mystical seperation that takes place when someone falls into apostacy. Allowing pro-abortion political leaders to remain in the church in spite of the deaths they are causing sends mixed messages.

That is the point, though, they are no longer in the Church. Excommunication means they are separated from the communion of believers. They may pretend that they still are, but it does not change the facts.

What would you like to see happen? Do you want some sort of formal decree to be posted on the internet, or the bishop to rent a billboard?