Proof for praying to saints

[Realcatholicgk]

They have already done this to themselves, by engaging in an act that causes excommunication.

That is the point, though, they are no longer in the Church. Excommunication means they are separated from the communion of believers. They may pretend that they still are, but it does not change the facts.

What would you like to see happen? Do you want some sort of formal decree to be posted on the internet, or the bishop to rent a billboard?

**hi guan,

I think Chris must feel like some prophets of old.:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

I think he needs the serenity prayer: Chris, For you my friend:
God, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change, Courage To Change The Things I Can, And Wisdom To Know The Difference. Living One Day At A Time, One Moment At A Time, Accepting Hardship As The Pathway To Peace. Amen**

 

[BMSODM]

By excommunication, I mean formally removing them as members of the church. I’m not talking about some sort of invisible, mystical seperation that takes place when someone falls into apostacy. Allowing pro-abortion political leaders to remain in the church in spite of the deaths they are causing sends mixed messages.

Blessings Chris***

You keep insisting that we rip the tares out from the wheat, Why?

Peace be with you***

 

[guanophore]

Blessings Chris***

You keep insisting that we rip the tares out from the wheat, Why?

Peace be with you***

He has rightly judged that the tares are worthy of being burned in the fire, but I think maybe he does not trust the Holy Angels to do the job right?

 

[BMSODM]

He has rightly judged that the tares are worthy of being burned in the fire, but I think maybe he does not trust the Holy Angels to do the job right?

Blessings***

Maybe so, but the Word warns us that even though it looks like a tare it might be wheat and if we humans try to pull the tare we might end up pulling a wheat or two with it. If we only pull one peice of wheat by accident that would be one to many. We are better off leaving that job to the ones who are already perfected.

We have to remember who is the potter and He can create anyone for good or evil and only He knows the heart of the clay under His thumb. There is a reason that the tare is with the wheat and that is because God allows it, and that should be a good enough reason to not humanly excommunicate a soul.

Grace and peace unto you***

 

[Chris_LaRock]

What would you like to see happen? Do you want some sort of formal decree to be posted on the internet, or the bishop to rent a billboard?

I would like to see them publically excommunicated and named publically. These people boast about being pro-abortion and catholic. I want to see them publically shamed and forbidden to even take communion.

Until your church grows the spine needed to expell these scumbag baby killers, I will continue to see the rcc as all talk and no action.

 

[Chris_LaRock]

He has rightly judged that the tares are worthy of being burned in the fire, but I think maybe he does not trust the Holy Angels to do the job right?

If that’s the case, let the priests who ordain women to remain in the church. We wouldn’t want do do anything as crazy as enforce the teachings of the church, would we?

 

[BMSODM]

If that’s the case, let the priests who ordain women to remain in the church. We wouldn’t want do do anything as crazy as enforce the teachings of the church, would we?

Blessings***

Priest’s are held at a different standard than laity Chris. Its quit obvious to me you just want to agrue your point and aren’t open to learning. Your already set in your belief’s and that isn’t very smart on your part. You just keep skating around the Word of God to conform to your understanding. As long as you keep leaning on your own understanding you will not grow to the potential you would otherwise obtain.

The truth has been presented to you over and over and you may accept it or reject it…I Pray God’s grace would open your heart to the Wisdom He wants you to receive…God Bless you my brother.

Peace unto you***

 

[hays1122]

Ok, I am glad we are in agreement on this point. Now, what do you see happening at the wedding?

Now might be a good time.

What is clear is the departed can and do know what is going on here on earth, and are able, by God’s grace, to interact with us.

Yes. The gates of heaven had not yet been opened, so he was in the place that the Jews called the place of the righteous dead. That is the same place Jesus told the thief he would be with Him.

My point is that Saul could have a conversation with Samuel, and Samuel knew what was going on in the world, as well as God’s plan for Saul.

OK, I understand your point now. And I agree.Samuel did know what was going on. He had feelings too.
About the wedding. I know that Mary told Jesus that there was no wine. Then she asked the others to do what Jesus asked.
But I don’t take that to mean that Jesus is under Mary’s authority.
Or that Jesus listens to Mary up in heaven.
Jesus is God. And he is the one we should focus on. Period.

 

[twb1621]

OK, I understand your point now. And I agree.Samuel did know what was going on. He had feelings too.
About the wedding. I know that Mary told Jesus that there was no wine. Then she asked the others to do what Jesus asked.
But I don’t take that to mean that Jesus is under Mary’s authority.
Or that Jesus listens to Mary up in heaven.
Jesus is God. And he is the one we should focus on. Period.

post 1 0f 2
it would help to understand and to keep in mind not only that the “woman” spoken of in the OT was Mary in the prophecies but also that she was predestined to suffer the pain of the sword as prophesied by Simeon at the temple. This was the reason Jesus referred to her as “woman” at times referring her to those prophecies. In fact, if you make the Compression, Mary’s life was (although a difference in degrees) to parallel the life of Jesus right down to His passion and suffering yet she remained as silent in her suffering as Jesus in His. It is a fact recognized by all Christians that the Blood of Christ is the Blood of our salvation. Mary was born full of grace and created by God with purity to be the ark of the new covenant just as God directed the construction of the ark of the old covenant. Mary was even more precious because it would be the Son of God who she would carry.
But most importantly, it should not be difficult to understand that if the blood of Jesus is the source of our salvation, this very blood pulsating through the veins of Jesus flowed through the veins of Mary and from her through Him. Her devotion and her immaculate nature could not have been flawed to start with and certainly could not have been soiled after sharing the living blood of Christ. If it were, there would be no salvation at all from the spilling of this very same blood and their shared torment and suffering. In sharing such a parallel it would also be a logical expectation that Jesus would have wanted her assumption as well.

As far as scripture, It would also stand to reason that considering the persecution of Christians at that time, the Apostles would have been very protective of Mary in her remaining years avoiding writing or any public proclamations having to do with her that might be used against her in some way. The logical thought would be that information regarding her life and death and assumption was passed on through Sacred Tradition but kept protected until such a time it could more safely be revealed along with the location she was originally laid to rest before the assumption. (Theoretically)

Some excerpts to ponder;
64. “Through the prophets, God forms his people in the hope of salvation, in the expectation of a new and everlasting Covenant intended for all, to be written on their hearts. [Cf. Is 2:2-4 ; Jer 31:31-34 ; Heb 10:16 .] The prophets proclaim a radical redemption of the People of God, purification from all their infidelities, a salvation, which will include all the nations. [Cf. Ezek 3:6; Is 49:5-6; Is 53:11 .] Above all, the poor and humble of the Lord will bear this hope. Such holy women as Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel, Miriam, Deborah, Hannah, Judith and Esther kept alive the hope of Israel’s salvation. The purest figure among them is Mary. [Cf. Ezek 2:3 ; Lk 1:38 .]”
148. “The Virgin Mary most perfectly embodies the obedience of faith. By faith Mary welcomes the tidings and promise brought by the angel Gabriel, believing that ‘with God nothing will be impossible’ and so giving her assent: ‘Behold I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be (done) to me according to your word.’ [Lk 1:37-38; cf. Gen 18:14.] Elizabeth greeted her: ‘Blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her from the Lord.’ [Lk 1:45 .] It is for this faith that all generations have called Mary blessed. [Cf. Lk 1:48.]”
273. “Only faith can embrace the mysterious ways of God’s almighty power. This faith glories in its weaknesses in order to draw to itself Christ’s power. [Cf. 2 Cor 12:9 ; Phil 4:13.] The Virgin Mary is the supreme model of this faith, for she believed that ‘nothing will be impossible with God’, and was able to magnify the Lord: ‘For he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name.’ [Lk 1:37, 49.]”
487. “What the Catholic faith believes about Mary is based on what it believes about Christ, and what it teaches about Mary illumines in turn its faith in Christ.”
490. “To become the mother of the Savior, Mary ‘was enriched by God with gifts appropriate to such a role.’ [LG 56.] The angel Gabriel at the moment of the annunciation salutes her as ‘full of grace’. [Lk 1:28 .] In fact, in order for Mary to be able to give the free assent of her faith to the announcement of her vocation, it was necessary that she be wholly borne by God’s grace.”
491. “Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, ‘full of grace’ through God, [Lk 1:28 .] was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854: The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin. [Pius IX,
Ineffabilis Deus (1854): DS 2803.]”
catscans.com/catholicsite/mary.htm
Continued at post 2 of 2

 

[twb1621]

Post 2 of 2 continued

“For as Eve was seduced by the word of an angel to flee from God, having rebelled against His Word, so Mary by the word of an angel received the glad tidings that she would bear God by obeying his Word. The former was seduced to disobey God, but the latter was persuaded to obey God, so that the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. As the human race was subjected to death through [the act of] a virgin, so it was saved by a virgin.”
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V:19,1(A.D. 180),in ANF,I:547

“Under your mercy we take refuge, O Mother of God. Do not reject our supplications in necessity, but deliver us from danger,[O you] alone pure and alone blessed.”
Sub Tuum Praesidium, Egypt 3rd Century, From Rylands Papyrus,in MCF,79

“O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides.”
Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin,71:216(ante AD 373),in MCF,106

“Recalling these and other circumstances and imploring the Virgin Mary to bring assistance, since she, too, was a virgin and had been in danger, she entrusted herself to the remedy of fasting and sleeping on the ground.”
Gregory of Nazianzen, Oration 24:11(A.D. 379),in MCF,167

“Let, then, the life of Mary be as it were virginity itself, set forth in a likeness, from which, as from a mirror, the appearance of chastity and the form of virtue is reflected… Nor would I hesitate to admit you to the altars of God, whose souls I would without hesitation call altars, on which Christ is daily offered for the redemption of the body. For if the virgin’s body be a temple of God, what is her soul, which, the ashes, as it were, of the body being shaken off, once more uncovered by the hand of the Eternal Priest, exhales the vapour of the divine fire. Blessed virgins, who emit a fragrance through divine grace as gardens do through flowers, temples through religion, altars through the priest.”
Ambrose, On Virginity II:6,18(AD 378),in NPNF2,X:374,376

“For it is said that he[Gregory the Wonderworker] heard the one who had appeared in womanly form exhorting John the Evangelist to explain to the young man the mystery of the true faith. John, in his turn, declared that he was completely willing to please the Mother of the Lord even in this matter and this was the one thing closest to his heart. And so the discussion coming to a close, and after they had made it quite clear and precise for him, the two disappeared from his sight.”
Gregory of Nyssa,On Gregory the WonderWorker(AD 380),PG 46:912,in MCF,94

I STOPPED BEFORE AD 400 BUT THIS IS CONTINUED AT
cin.org/users/jgallegos/mary_dev.htm

 

[guanophore]

Blessings***

Maybe so, but the Word warns us that even though it looks like a tare it might be wheat and if we humans try to pull the tare we might end up pulling a wheat or two with it. If we only pull one peice of wheat by accident that would be one to many. We are better off leaving that job to the ones who are already perfected.

We have to remember who is the potter and He can create anyone for good or evil and only He knows the heart of the clay under His thumb. There is a reason that the tare is with the wheat and that is because God allows it, and that should be a good enough reason to not humanly excommunicate a soul.

Grace and peace unto you***

I agree, but one must also be mindful that the purpose of excommunication is for a person to learn, to repent, and to return to the fold. It is a last resort in an effort to get their attention and thus save their soul.

 

[guanophore]

If that’s the case, let the priests who ordain women to remain in the church. We wouldn’t want do do anything as crazy as enforce the teachings of the church, would we?

I am surprised to hear you take this approach, given the history of the Church “enforcing” teachings throughout history. Many lives have been ruined or ended through the Church’s attempts to “enforce” the teachings. One only needs to explore the history of the inquisitions and crusades to see this clearly.

You also do not seem to accept that excommunication has already occurred when these people (abortionists and those who “ordain” women") act outside the teaching of the Church. It seems that you want your pound of flesh from people, public reprimanding and shaming. THis has been done much over the course of history with disasterous results. The problem is not with the teaching or even a lack of backbone, but with the log that is in the eye. When officials in the Church attempt to “enforce” around that log, bad things happen.

I think what is more appropriate toward the end that we both seek is personal holiness. When the officials of the Church are purified in body, soul, mind and spirit, there will be no need for such public drama. In the meantime, the focus needs to be placed on removing logs, so that one can see to remove the specks.

 

[guanophore]

OK, I understand your point now. And I agree.Samuel did know what was going on. He had feelings too.

Yes. One of the objections put forth for praying to the saints is that they are “dead and know nothing”. I think this is false.

About the wedding. I know that Mary told Jesus that there was no wine. Then she asked the others to do what Jesus asked.
But I don’t take that to mean that Jesus is under Mary’s authority.
Or that Jesus listens to Mary up in heaven.
Jesus is God. And he is the one we should focus on. Period.

We do not consider that Mary has “authority” over Jesus. She did when He was a child, because she was His parent. Now, she submits to His authority. The wedding in Cana is an example of Mary’s intercession. One can only imagine how many private miracles Jesus did for her in the years prior. Clearly, it was like second nature to her to bring problems to Him, and trust that whatever He did about it would be sufficient. This is the model she provides to us, taking the problem to Jesus, then complete trust in him to take care of it. The direction she gives to the servants “do whatever He tells you”, she continues to give to us today.

Why would Jesus “stop” listening to Mary now that she is in heaven? Do you really think that the wine running out is more important than the saving of souls? He did that as an illustration for us, that He would answer Mary’s prayers “up to the brim”!

God chose to be born into a family. He created mankind as a family. He wants us to be related to one another as a family. If he wanted to be “alone” He would not have made any of us.

 

[BMSODM]

I agree, but one must also be mindful that the purpose of excommunication is for a person to learn, to repent, and to return to the fold. It is a last resort in an effort to get their attention and thus save their soul.

Blessings***

You said: “the purpose of excommunication is for a person to learn, to repent, and to return to the fold.”

One could argue that’s the purpose of the Holy Spirit.
To teach so we learn. To convict that we repent. To guide that we return. And there is no better place to be then in the Church to recieve the Holy Spirit’s teachings.

Peace unto You***

 

[guanophore]

Blessings***

You said: *“the purpose of excommunication is for a person to learn, to repent, and to return *to the fold.”

One could argue that’s the purpose of the Holy Spirit.
To teach so we learn. To convict that we repent. To guide that we return. And there is no better place to be then in the Church to recieve the Holy Spirit’s teachings.

Peace unto You***

For those of teachable heart, yes, but for those whose consciences are seared as with a hot iron, sometimes they are not able to repent. The Apostles believed that there was no salvation outside the church, so one put out of it was “delivered to satan”, the god of this world.

1 Tim 1:19-20
By rejecting conscience, certain persons have suffered shipwreck in the faith; 20 among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have turned over to Satan, so that they may learn not to blaspheme.

It is possible that one might get a wake up call, and return in humility to the Church.

 

[BMSODM]

For those of teachable heart, yes, but for those whose consciences are seared as with a hot iron, sometimes they are not able to repent. The Apostles believed that there was no salvation outside the church, so one put out of it was “delivered to satan”, the god of this world.

1 Tim 1:19-20
By rejecting conscience, certain persons have suffered shipwreck in the faith; 20 among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have turned over to Satan, so that they may learn not to blaspheme.

It is possible that one might get a wake up call, and return in humility to the Church.

Blessings***

I guess your right, but When I read that I can’t help but look at who put them out (Paul). I think we can both agree Paul was walking in Spirit not flesh in his ministry (the infancy of the church)
He was in authority of the early church.

I guess my point is that the elders should be left with that decision, not us laity. And just like teachers are held to a higher standards so are the elders. They will be held accountable if they pulled any wheat along with those tares.

So if you want to judge who is who we better be ready to be judged…

The merciful shall obtain mercy

Peace unto you***

 

[Chris_LaRock]

Blessings***

I guess your right, but When I read that I can’t help but look at who put them out (Paul). I think we can both agree Paul was walking in Spirit not flesh in his ministry (the infancy of the church)
He was in authority of the early church.

I guess my point is that the elders should be left with that decision, not us laity. And just like teachers are held to a higher standards so are the elders. They will be held accountable if they pulled any wheat along with those tares.

So if you want to judge who is who we better be ready to be judged…

The merciful shall obtain mercy

Peace unto you***

But what do you do in a case where the Elders are tolerating sinful conduct and the laity are offended and demanding action to be taken against it? Do you just tell the laity to just shut up and let the Elders turn a deaf ear and blind eye to apostacy? Do you tell them that hard-hearted, stubborn, and unrepentant sinners have just as much right to be in the church as those who actually make an effort to follow the teachings and reconcile themselves to God? You have to draw a line somewhere.

 

[BMSODM]

But what do you do in a case where the Elders are tolerating sinful conduct and the laity are offended and demanding action to be taken against it? Do you just tell the laity to just shut up and let the Elders turn a deaf ear and blind eye to apostacy? Do you tell them that hard-hearted, stubborn, and unrepentant sinners have just as much right to be in the church as those who actually make an effort to follow the teachings and reconcile themselves to God? You have to draw a line somewhere.

Blessings***

I have drawn my line and that line is that I trust in Jesus and His words that say He will never forsake His Church.

Let me try to make my point clearer. I will use the abortion thing as an example. If a women has an abortion she shouldn’t be excommunicated. If a doctor performs an abortion he shouldn’t be excommunicated. Now if a priest or bishop teaches that abortion isn’t against God’s teachings then they should be excommunicated. If someone in authority is teaching against the word of God then they need to be removed. Now if a doctor was going around in the church and teaching others that abortion is ok in God’s eyes, then he should be advised to discontinue and if he continues then he should be removed.

Sin seperates us from God, so when we live in sin we are excommunicating ourselves. When we receive the Eucharist in a state of sin we are killing ourselves. No public excommunication could ever hurt someone worse then what there doing to themselves.

PEACE Unto you***

 

[Chris_LaRock]

Blessings***

I have drawn my line and that line is that I trust in Jesus and His words that say He will never forsake His Church.

Let me try to make my point clearer. I will use the abortion thing as an example. If a women has an abortion she shouldn’t be excommunicated. If a doctor performs an abortion he shouldn’t be excommunicated. Now if a priest or bishop teaches that abortion isn’t against God’s teachings then they should be excommunicated. If someone in authority is teaching against the word of God then they need to be removed. Now if a doctor was going around in the church and teaching others that abortion is ok in God’s eyes, then he should be advised to discontinue and if he continues then he should be removed.

Sin seperates us from God, so when we live in sin we are excommunicating ourselves. When we receive the Eucharist in a state of sin we are killing ourselves. No public excommunication could ever hurt someone worse then what there doing to themselves.

PEACE Unto you***

so…

A priest who condones abortion verbally…excommunicated. Somebody who participates in the actual aborting of a child…no excommunication.

Well, I guess I’ll just remain Protestant. I know we excommunicate abortionists. tiller the killer was excommunicated from the lutheran church as an unrepentant sinner. So, I’ll stick with lutheranism.

 

[Peter_J]

Somebody who participates in the actual aborting of a child…no excommunication.

No, I’m pretty sure that is incorrect. (Hopefully one of my fellow Catholics can provide a link/source.)