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Lapell
Guest
If you talk in general, maybe. But Jesus said it about Peter’s specific answer, and I will point out to you that at the time, Simon Peter was the only one who gave that answer… and THAT was special for Simon Peter.
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Lapell
Guest
Just like it wasn’t unique for any prophet to receive messages from God, but to be the one prophet to designate who the Messiah foretold in the Scriptures is with the spirit of the Prophet Elijah WAS unique, and that fell on John the Baptist…
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planten
Guest
That is why it has no value. Even though jesus praised his words. They were good words in respect of Jesus. Nothing more. There are so many metaphoric words in bible and in Quran. They should not be mis-construed, mis-understood.
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planten
Guest
**
Further to my above post: Just imagine, taking the religion far away from its foundations just by the words of one man (Peter). That could never be when Jesus himself never told any one those words.
If Jesus had been preaching that he was god then why he would go asking his friends what the people thought about him. First Jesus preach that he was the god almighty. Then later he could ask his friends “What do the people think I am?”
But he never preached about being God at all. There is absolutely no truth in that matter that he was god. We see Jesus doing miracles in bible and in Quran. Does the god do miracles? Or the miracles are performed by the prophets? Miracles are related to the prophets and not to god. So Jesus was a prophet only. That is what says the Quran.
Everything points to Jesus being a prophet only. The church has made a serious mistake by making a god out of Jesus. I give another reason here. Christians say that jesus got the bible (Injeel). That is another proof that he was only a prophet. Gods do not get any book. Please think over all these points.**
Further to my above post: Just imagine, taking the religion far away from its foundations just by the words of one man (Peter). That could never be when Jesus himself never told any one those words.
If Jesus had been preaching that he was god then why he would go asking his friends what the people thought about him. First Jesus preach that he was the god almighty. Then later he could ask his friends “What do the people think I am?”
But he never preached about being God at all. There is absolutely no truth in that matter that he was god. We see Jesus doing miracles in bible and in Quran. Does the god do miracles? Or the miracles are performed by the prophets? Miracles are related to the prophets and not to god. So Jesus was a prophet only. That is what says the Quran.
Everything points to Jesus being a prophet only. The church has made a serious mistake by making a god out of Jesus. I give another reason here. Christians say that jesus got the bible (Injeel). That is another proof that he was only a prophet. Gods do not get any book. Please think over all these points.**
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Charlie_Zeaiter
Guest
There is a couple of points that you missed:
- Jesus was born from the Virgin Mary
- Jesus walked on water
- Jesus suffered and died on The Cross
- Jesus rose from the dead three days later.
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Lapell
Guest
Planten, and all Muslim participants, I don’t feel much respected when you come out with statements such as this one when discussing points of the Christian faith in telling us that we got it all wrong. You are discussing the contains of our religion through a book that isn’t part of our religion and call the Church’s interpretations wrong… Excuse me, but this is not proper inter-religious dialogue. This doesn’t excuse similar talk from our side which I do disapprove. Again, it’s not proper inter-religious dialogue, so please refrain from such kind of talk.
I still wish wish you genuine peace from the One true God…
M
Mystic_Warrior
Guest
If you believe that, why can’t you see that the Koran was given to a man supposedly, written by another man supposedly and is therefore no more reliable than the Bible and men that you claim are not reliable?
so what if the Koran has been kept in Arabic? does that make the message of it any more inspired than the Bible?
MW
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Mystic_Warrior
Guest
There is absolutely nothing that can be offered or said to the Muslim participants that will change their minds. They are not open to the truth of Jesus and will therefore not ever see it.
Instead of reading quality books on the subject like Josh McDowell’s wonderful books to get a thorough examination of the Christian faith they wander around forums looking to give their own views of Christianity from a Muslim perspective instead of looking at it from a Christian perspective.
This makes about as much sense as me trying to understand Islam through Christian sources. It just doesn’t work.
I’m reminded of simplicity.
The angels revealed truth some 600 years before the Koran came around. And for Gabriel to now reveal a different truth than he preached before is ridiculous. Gabriel cannot lie.
Jesus was not just a prophet if he was crucified and raised from the dead three days later. Where is His body??? If His body were still around, don’t you think that someone would know about it and seek to “own” it?
Proof is contingent upon one’s ability to understand and have an open mind, which is something I"ve never seen a Muslim poster able to do. Sorry.
MW
Instead of reading quality books on the subject like Josh McDowell’s wonderful books to get a thorough examination of the Christian faith they wander around forums looking to give their own views of Christianity from a Muslim perspective instead of looking at it from a Christian perspective.
This makes about as much sense as me trying to understand Islam through Christian sources. It just doesn’t work.
I’m reminded of simplicity.
The angels revealed truth some 600 years before the Koran came around. And for Gabriel to now reveal a different truth than he preached before is ridiculous. Gabriel cannot lie.
Jesus was not just a prophet if he was crucified and raised from the dead three days later. Where is His body??? If His body were still around, don’t you think that someone would know about it and seek to “own” it?
Proof is contingent upon one’s ability to understand and have an open mind, which is something I"ve never seen a Muslim poster able to do. Sorry.
MW
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Mystic_Warrior
Guest
The demons hate it to hear it, see it or touch it. They hate to hear the very words of it spoken, no matter if it’s Latin, English, French or any other language. They fear it more than anything else. Good enough for me.
MW
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Charlie_Zeaiter
Guest
Nicely said.
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Dymphna2008
Guest
The same could probably be said of most Christians, even most Catholics with a need to evangelize, as you do. After all, Muslims are simply trying to do the same basic things; evangelize, teach, apologize. Would you be open to them as much as you want them to be open to you? If they represented Islam as religion that was indeed acceptable in its moral teaching, its practise, its formation of character, would it be any less an option for a thinking spiritual person? Could you listen and accept what an Imam says about the Qu’ran, as much as you would like any Muslim to sit and listen to your parish priest and their relevant understanding of what it means to be Christian, believe the Bible and the Church?
Simply because you think you know what it is to be Christian, you don’t necessarily have the right to put it on the table as the only spiritual alternative. If anything, as a Catholic, I find that spirituality is not limited to Christians; in fact, we often betray what Jesus and the apostles taught. We’ve felt the need to impose our beliefs in a way that is completely at odds with Jesus’s teaching. We wiped out entire peoples in the name of Christ, made them slaves, brought disease and death, all in the name of Christ. At least, when the Muslims began to colonize and do battle in Arabia, North Africa, Spain, India, they understood the need to leave the indigenous peoples in place. They brought superior culture and learning with them; things Christians rejected as witchcraft and alchemy, but today form the basis of physics, geometry, literature, mathematics, architecture. Jews who were ghettoized and murdered under Christian law, were safe in Muslim controlled lands. It’s when Europeans begin to encroach and assume control as colonial powers, that Jews and other peoples become fare game.
Be careful what you say about Muslims, Christians, the Qu’ran, the Bible, and who is right and who is wrong. Both have valid points; I often hear that Christians are not terrorists–not now. But they certainly terrorized peoples for hundreds of years. What you see and hear on the news now is merely the backlash.
Simply because you think you know what it is to be Christian, you don’t necessarily have the right to put it on the table as the only spiritual alternative. If anything, as a Catholic, I find that spirituality is not limited to Christians; in fact, we often betray what Jesus and the apostles taught. We’ve felt the need to impose our beliefs in a way that is completely at odds with Jesus’s teaching. We wiped out entire peoples in the name of Christ, made them slaves, brought disease and death, all in the name of Christ. At least, when the Muslims began to colonize and do battle in Arabia, North Africa, Spain, India, they understood the need to leave the indigenous peoples in place. They brought superior culture and learning with them; things Christians rejected as witchcraft and alchemy, but today form the basis of physics, geometry, literature, mathematics, architecture. Jews who were ghettoized and murdered under Christian law, were safe in Muslim controlled lands. It’s when Europeans begin to encroach and assume control as colonial powers, that Jews and other peoples become fare game.
Be careful what you say about Muslims, Christians, the Qu’ran, the Bible, and who is right and who is wrong. Both have valid points; I often hear that Christians are not terrorists–not now. But they certainly terrorized peoples for hundreds of years. What you see and hear on the news now is merely the backlash.
M
Mystic_Warrior
Guest
I wouldn’t be open to them, no. Not after my experiences in life. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it’s a false gospel and an enemy of my faith.
Then, by all means, if Islam is so wonderful and Christianity so terrible, then become a Muslim. The Christian faith is betrayed all over the world because of this venemous and heretical teaching. I have every right to put Christianity on the table as the only alternative. Why wouldn’t I? Why wouldn’t you? There is no other alternative to the Son of God. If you believe there is there’s serious trouble with your faith. Jesus is either the Son of God and co-eternal with the Father or not. There is no in-between. There’s no halfway faith. There’s no room for truth mixed with error.
No, Islam has no valid points. If you think so you are closer to being a Unitarian than a Catholic. I’m not going to be careful what I say about Islam. It’s purely, undeniably, irrefutably false, anti-Christian, anti-love, anti-freedom, anti-truth and a cursed false religion that St. Paul spoke of in the actual Holy Scriptures. If you believe otherwise you are denying your true faith and blaspheming the Son of God, which is exactly what Islam does. They deny our Lord as Divine and say He is “junior” to Moses. How can you defend such teachings? No, I will continue to disregard and speak out against that faith that blasphemes my Savior. I’m not looking to be open-minded to their teaching. I’ve seen what Jesus can do. Why would I look anywhere else for salvation and truth when it’s apparent to me now?
MW
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Charlie_Zeaiter
Guest
Hi Dymphna2008,
I’ll give you an example…
I think it’s OK for muslims to use the Qur’an and believe that Jesus didn’t die on the Cross (see Qur’an 4:157). That’s their belief - so be it.
But I think it’s terrible that muslims suggest we use our bible and believe that Jesus didn’t die on the Cross. The biblical evidence just isn’t there.
I find that muslims take their Qur’anic beliefs, and then mis-interpret the bible to suit their agenda. If you don’t agree with the bible, so be it - leave it alone; But don’t miscontrue the bible to suit your agenda. As Lapell mentioned earlier, that isn’t “proper inter-religious dialogue”.
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Lapell
Guest
This was the starting question, which seems to have been asked in reaction to the Christians’ rejection of the Qor’an…
But how is it that the Christians didn’t reject the Bible coming from the Sons of Israel? The God of Israel claimed to be the One true God and we Christians do believe it. The New Testament came in continuity with the revelation contained in the Holy Scriptures of the people of Israel. The Jews seem to believe Jesus as a Messiah and more specifically as God the Son to be an imposter, and we don’t offer animals as sacrifice, but other than that, we have many things in common. For one thing, the Hebrew Bible is part of our sacred Scriptures. With time, certain doctrines popped up and developed in Judaism. Within Judaism itself, many debates and disagreements happened. For instance, when the Chassidic movement started, many in Jewish quarters didn’t accept them. And some branches of Chassidism, although they are recognised as Jewish, are rather looked at with much suspicion from outsiders. The way I see it, had Jesus not claimed to be the Son of God who will come back sitting at the right hand on a cloud of heaven, Christians probably would have been recognised as Jews, because the teachings were quite compatible with those of Judaism. In Judaism, saving a life is so adamantly important that it takes precedence over observing the Torah (actually saving a life is part of the Torah, I think). Jesus restored health in many people during Sabbath. He justified what he did by explaining he was restoring life to them, allowing them to attend the Temple services which they previously could not. I don’t know if saving a life has always taken precedence over observing the Torah. If Jesus justified what he did that way, we may assume that the answer is yes, I guess…
But the matter of continuity and consistency is very important to us. Every new piece of doctrine must be examined in the context of the whole of the doctrine and prove, so to speak, compatible with the rest, as though it was contained in the rest of the doctrines.
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planten
Guest
**
There is nothing in common between the Jews and the christians. I do not know what the jews are doing now. But what is written in the old testament is very clear about monotheism. And many other good things.
The christians have parted ways with the Jews on many issues. One of them is the Trinity (Three Gods). The other is the son of God business. These are very vital issues. They are not minor.
Then the christians doing away with sabath. Doing away with circumcision. Doing away with the marriage laws and divorce. etc. Eating of the flesh of swines. having different worship places. having different worship ways. having Sunday as the holiday.
As far as religion is concerned there is nothing common between the Jews and the Christians. The Jews are the seniors and should be respected by all. They have a book and a law. Jesus had come for that book and that law, not for a new book and new law.
I do not see any place for the christians to stand. Of course I do not deny their effort in preaching their beliefs to the world and winning over many converts.**
There is nothing in common between the Jews and the christians. I do not know what the jews are doing now. But what is written in the old testament is very clear about monotheism. And many other good things.
The christians have parted ways with the Jews on many issues. One of them is the Trinity (Three Gods). The other is the son of God business. These are very vital issues. They are not minor.
Then the christians doing away with sabath. Doing away with circumcision. Doing away with the marriage laws and divorce. etc. Eating of the flesh of swines. having different worship places. having different worship ways. having Sunday as the holiday.
As far as religion is concerned there is nothing common between the Jews and the Christians. The Jews are the seniors and should be respected by all. They have a book and a law. Jesus had come for that book and that law, not for a new book and new law.
I do not see any place for the christians to stand. Of course I do not deny their effort in preaching their beliefs to the world and winning over many converts.**
R
RCWarrior821
Guest
Read the OT a little bit closer there are indications for Trinitarian God. Christians don’t believe in 3 gods but 1 God 3 persons.
Jesus did not come to abolish the old laws but to perfect them. That is what Christianity is, the perfection and completion of Judaism…
I don’t know whether you are Christian or Jewish but in either case more research should have been made before being so critical of something you fail to understand:blush:
God Bless
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planten
Guest
** I am a Muslim and I read the OT and NT and Quran. I enjoyed reading the laws given to Moses and I enjoy reading the NT (Mathew etc). The material in the Ot and NT (gospels) is really very good.
Read the OT a little bit closer there are indications for Trinitarian God. Christians don’t believe in 3 gods but 1 God 3 persons.
Jesus did not come to abolish the old laws but to perfect them. That is what Christianity is, the perfection and completion of Judaism…
I don’t know whether you are Christian or Jewish but in either case more research should have been made before being so critical of something you fail to understand:blush:
God Bless
I sincerely do not find anything precise even in the NT about Trinity. There is nothing about it in the OT. Quran and OT clearly support the One God without any doubt. But the church is spreading the three gods theory along with One God, ( may I say in parallel?), sailing in two boats at once. .**
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swariffin
Guest
Dear Planten,
One of you (Kadeveri, I think) said that one cannot read the Quran one verse in isolation with the rest with other verses in Quran. The same thing with the bible, you cannot read one verse in isolation with the rest of the verses. If you cannot find the reference of Trinity in a single verse, that is normal, and I don’t blame you. But, if you conclude that it is a weakness, then you are in a mistake interpreting the bible.
R
RCWarrior821
Guest
Ok lets go through this:
In the Old Testament
Gen 1:26-27
Then God said: “Let
us make man in our image, after our likeness. Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and the cattle, and over all the wild animals and all the creatures that crawl on the ground.”Gen 11:6-7 Then the LORD said: “If now, while they are one people, all speaking the same language, they have started to do this, nothing will later stop them from doing whatever they presume to do. Let
us then go down and there confuse their language, so that one will not understand what another says.”and more…
New Testament
Matthew 28:19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”
2 Cor. 13:13 he grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the holy Spirit be with all of you
again there are more like how Christ refers to Himself as “I AM” the same way God refers to Himself in the OT…
Doesn’t the Quran say that there is no trinity??
That doesn’t make any senseGuess the writer made a mistake
May you find the truth that is Christ
L
Lapell
Guest
We have tried many times to explain what the mystery of the Holy Trinity is. We said many times that it’s not 3 Gods, but One God in 3 persons. Not everything coming from God is easy to accept, planten. I already know what the Muslims and the Jews and the Mormons say: not one god in the Trinity, but three gods, that it’s a lie, etc. If that’s what you want to tell us, you had done that earlier already. If we are here to tell each other “You’re wrong, we’re right”, we’d better leave the thread, which I’m just about to do. Salam alekhoum!
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