Proof of God in Prophecy?

[Charlemagne_III]

Saint Paul said in I Thessalonians 5:19, “Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophetic utterances. Test everything; retain what is good.”

Is there sufficient reason by way of prophetic utterances to argue that the prophecies of the Old and New Testaments give evidence that the Judeo-Christian religion is authentic?

 

[Partinobodycula]

Is there sufficient reason by way of prophetic utterances to argue that the prophecies of the Old and New Testaments give evidence that the Judeo-Christian religion is authentic?

Biblical prophecies certainly give sufficient reason to argue for the Judeo-Christian religion, but that’s an extremely low bar to clear. History is littered with prophets and prophecies, and there are people who will argue for the legitimacy of just about each and every one. So using prophecy to argue for the validity of one’s own particular ideology is fairly common. Even biblical prophecy can be used to support both Christian and non-Christian worldviews alike. People see what they want to see. What’s prophecy to you, is self-delusion to somebody else.

So you can certainly use biblical prophecy to argue for the Judeo-Christian religion, but you’ll ultimately be preaching to the choir.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Biblical prophecies certainly give sufficient reason to argue for the Judeo-Christian religion, but that’s an extremely low bar to clear. History is littered with prophets and prophecies, and there are people who will argue for the legitimacy of just about each and every one. So using prophecy to argue for the validity of one’s own particular ideology is fairly common. Even biblical prophecy can be used to support both Christian and non-Christian worldviews alike. People see what they want to see. What’s prophecy to you, is self-delusion to somebody else.

So you can certainly use biblical prophecy to argue for the Judeo-Christian religion, but you’ll ultimately be preaching to the choir.

I am lifting the following quote from another thread on Pascal, who argued that biblical prophecy is a strong indicator of an authentic religion.

"With respect to prophecy, the 18th century physicist Isaac Newton picked up where Pascal left off. Newton spent more words analyzing scriptural prophecy than he spent on physics. His writings were ignored after his death and gathered dust until 1936 when they were auctioned at Sotheby’s by his descendants. Close study of the manuscripts reveals Newton’s passionate belief that the secrets of the end times were encrypted in various biblical books, especially Daniel and Revelations. Speaking of the last days Newton predicted, “About the Time of the End, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition.”

Of special interest to us today is Newton’s dating of the end times. He calculated that after two thousand years of dispersion throughout the world starting in 70 A.D., a call to restore the Jews to Israel would go out in 1895 or 1896. Amazingly, the first Zionist Congress was held in 1897, preparations for which were doubtless made during 1895-1896 (186 years after Newton’s death). Newton also predicted that the full restoration of the Jews to Israel would occur about 1944. The state of Israel was officially approved by the United Nations in 1948, though the defeat and suicide of Hitler in 1944, the discovery of the full horror of the Holocaust, and a worldwide reaction of sympathy, made the restoration of the Jews to Israel practically inevitable.

It’s never happened that any such prophetic utterances as those analyzed by Newton are to be found in the scriptures of any other world religion, another sign that Pascal was on the right track."

Does what Newton (who died in 1726) discovered in scripture about the restoration of the Jews to Israel by 1944 sound like preaching to the choir?

---

 

[inocente]

Does what Newton (who died in 1726) discovered in scripture about the restoration of the Jews to Israel by 1944 sound like preaching to the choir?

Predictions out of supposed bible codes are notorious. I’ve seen amazingly spot on predictions from applying the same technique to the works of Shakespeare and even to phone directories. You can get any prediction you want out of any large text. There’s just one problem. No one mentions the thousands of wrong predictions which have to be overlooked.

It’s just statistics, nothing magical. Newton was a bit of a nut in some areas.

But anyway that’s prediction, whereas surely prophecy is about a message from God revealed to a prophet, who passes it on.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Predictions out of supposed bible codes are notorious. I’ve seen amazingly spot on predictions from applying the same technique to the works of Shakespeare and even to phone directories. You can get any prediction you want out of any large text. There’s just one problem. No one mentions the thousands of wrong predictions which have to be overlooked.

It’s just statistics, nothing magical. Newton was a bit of a nut in some areas.

But anyway that’s prediction, whereas surely prophecy is about a message from God revealed to a prophet, who passes it on.

Well, since his predictions are based on biblical passages, they ought to be more than mere predictions.

What prediction did Shakespeare make that would be fulfilled two centuries later? And was the prediction n Shakespeare made so specific as the one Newton made about the return of the Jews to Israel in the 1940s?

Yes, Newton could be a little nutty. But what does nuttiness have to do with spot on predictions based on deciphering biblical codes?

 

[tonyrey]

There is abundant reason to believe Psalm 22 is a precise prediction of the Passion, Death and Resurrection of Our Lord:

22 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
2 O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8 He trusted on the Lord that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother’s breasts.
10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother’s belly.
11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
19 But be not thou far from me, O Lord: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
21 Save me from the lion’s mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
23 Ye that fear the Lord, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the Lord that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee…

c 500 BC.

Further confirmation is given in the book of Isaiah:

[1] Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed? [2] And he shall grow up as a tender plant before him, and as a root out of a thirsty ground: there is no beauty in him, nor comeliness: and we have seen him, and there was no sightliness, that we should be desirous of him: [3] Despised, and the most abject of men, a man of sorrows, and acquainted with infirmity: and his look was as it were hidden and despised, whereupon we esteemed him not. [4] Surely he hath borne our infirmities and carried our sorrows: and we have thought him as it were a leper, and as one struck by God and afflicted. [5] But he was wounded for our iniquities, he was bruised for our sins: the chastisement of our peace was upon him, and by his bruises we are healed.
[6] All we like sheep have gone astray, every one hath turned aside into his own way: and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. [7] He was offered because it was his own will, and he opened not his mouth: he shall be led as a sheep to the slaughter, and shall be dumb as a lamb before his shearer, and he shall not open his mouth. [8] He was taken away from distress, and from judgment: who shall declare his generation? because he is cut off out of the land of the living: for the wickedness of my people have I struck him. [9] And he shall give the ungodly for his burial, and the rich for his death: because he hath done no iniquity, neither was there deceit in his mouth. [10] And the Lord was pleased to bruise him in infirmity: if he shall lay down his life for sin, he shall see a long-lived seed, and the will of the Lord shall be prosperous in his hand.
[11] Because his soul hath laboured, he shall see and be filled: by his knowledge shall this my just servant justify many, and he shall bear their iniquities. [12] Therefore will I distribute to him very many, and he shall divide the spoils of the strong, because he hath delivered his soul unto death, and was reputed with the wicked: and he hath borne the sins of many, and hath prayed for the transgressors.

Isaiah 52:1-12

c 700 BC

 

[Charlemagne_III]

There is abundant reason to believe Psalm 22 is a precise prediction of the Passion, Death and Resurrection of Our Lord:

c 500 BC.

Further confirmation is given in the book of Isaiah:

Isaiah 52:1-12

c 700 BC

:clapping:

 

[inocente]

Well, since his predictions are based on biblical passages, they ought to be more than mere predictions.

What prediction did Shakespeare make that would be fulfilled two centuries later? And was the prediction n Shakespeare made so specific as the one Newton made about the return of the Jews to Israel in the 1940s?

Yes, Newton could be a little nutty. But what does nuttiness have to do with spot on predictions based on deciphering biblical codes?

For instance this from the Jewish Daily:

*"One reason that Bible Codes have gone out of fashion is that mathematicians and statisticians have thoroughly, completely and convincingly disproved them. For example, Barry Simon of the Caltech mathematics department has shown that any sufficiently large text will have similar letter patterns in it. Famously, the same algorithms used in the Bible Codes yielded similarly “prophetic” results when used on Hebrew translations of “War and Peace.”

Indeed, when, in 1997, popular author Michael Drosnin (who wrote a book on the subject) challenged critics to find the same “prophecy” regarding the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin in “Moby Dick” as Bible Codes folks had found in the Bible, Australian computer scientist Brendan McKay did just that, and for good measure he found letter arrangements predicting the assassinations of Trotsky, Gandhi and Martin Luther King, Jr.

In other words, the Bible Codes are bunk."

Read more: forward.com/articles/157033/bible-codes-a-lie-that-won-t-die/?p=all#ixzz3KuquXFi5*

 

[inocente]

There is abundant reason to believe Psalm 22 is a precise prediction of the Passion, Death and Resurrection of Our Lord:

As Charles is trying to prove that the Judeo-Christian religion is authentic, he will face skeptics from all other religions as well as secular skeptics. They will claim that tricks have been used, and Charles will have to refute every one of them.

The hardest one to refute is perhaps the simplest: that passages in later books which fulfill prophecies were invented or slanted to do exactly that. For instance I just googled “nt invented prophecies” and the first hit was this - infidels.org/library/modern/paul_carlson/nt_contradictions.html

Even that one page would take a lot of work to prove to skeptics that the prophecies are genuine.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

As Charles is trying to prove that the Judeo-Christian religion is authentic, he will face skeptics from all other religions as well as secular skeptics. They will claim that tricks have been used, and Charles will have to refute every one of them.

The hardest one to refute is perhaps the simplest: that passages in later books which fulfill prophecies were invented or slanted to do exactly that. For instance I just googled “nt invented prophecies” and the first hit was this - infidels.org/library/modern/paul_carlson/nt_contradictions.html

Even that one page would take a lot of work to prove to skeptics that the prophecies are genuine.

You really blew it here!

Newton’s prediction, based on deciphering of biblical passages, that the Jews would return to Israel in 1948, nearly two centuries after Newton’s death, is time and place specific. The Jews could not have arranged that to fulfill his prediction because the prediction was not even known about until after the return to Israel when dust covered boxes of Newton’s writings were unearthed and sold at auction in 1936, nearly 40 years after the Zionist movement began in the 1890s.

 

[inocente]

You really blew it here!

Newton’s prediction, based on deciphering of biblical passages, that the Jews would return to Israel in 1948, nearly two centuries after Newton’s death, is time and place specific. The Jews could not have arranged that to fulfill his prediction because the prediction was not even known about until after the return to Israel when dust covered boxes of Newton’s writings were unearthed and sold at auction in 1936, nearly 40 years after the Zionist movement began in the 1890s.

OK, I’ll take the part of a skeptic. First thing I want is Newton’s own prediction for 1948, but I only found sites saying Newton made the prediction, not where he himself makes it.

There are various sites containing his works, including the Newton Project (which says he “believed that God had specially chosen him to deliver the truth about how prophetic texts were to be understood”).

So please link where Newton himself makes the prediction, and we’ll take it from there.

I did find this, which was presumably written before 1996 as it says that’s when Newton predicted the end of the world.

Also this, which mentions Newton in calculating 1948, but frankly if that’s it then it’s laughable, there’s all kinds of ducking and diving going on, see for yourself.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

OK, I’ll take the part of a skeptic. First thing I want is Newton’s own prediction for 1948, but I only found sites saying Newton made the prediction, not where he himself makes it.

There are various sites containing his works, including the Newton Project (which says he “believed that God had specially chosen him to deliver the truth about how prophetic texts were to be understood”).

So please link where Newton himself makes the prediction, and we’ll take it from there.

I did find this, which was presumably written before 1996 as it says that’s when Newton predicted the end of the world.

Also this, which mentions Newton in calculating 1948, but frankly if that’s it then it’s laughable, there’s all kinds of ducking and diving going on, see for yourself.

I’m more inclined to think everything in your post is ducking and diving.

 

[inocente]

I’m more inclined to think everything in your post is ducking and diving.

I’m trying to see if your OP has any legs. Do I take it you can’t find the prediction by Newton himself and so your dreams have been cruelly smashed at the first hurdle?

:coffeeread:

 

[Partinobodycula]

I’m more inclined to think everything in your post is ducking and diving.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, you made a claim that Isaac Newton predicted the restoration of Israel in 1944-48. You’ve simply been asked to substantiate that claim. It’s a very reasonable request.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

I’m trying to see if your OP has any legs. Do I take it you can’t find the prediction by Newton himself and so your dreams have been cruelly smashed at the first hurdle?

:coffeeread:

So if I could not find them on the web, they don’t exist? Whew!

My, my, all those liars out there who have given accounts of his predictions.

Why are you comforted by so much cynicism about Newton scholarship in this area?

Do you believe there are no prophecies in the Bible?

Or if you believe there are prophecies, do you believe none of them have been proven to be true?

You seem to be still bucking the idea proposed by Pascal (a Catholic) and elucidated by Newton (a Protestant) two of the greatest scientific and mathematical minds in history, that the Bible contains by way of prophecies come true that Christianity is a true religion and demonstrates through prophecy, as no other religion has, that it is the true religion.

Does this argument make you uncomfortable? Why?

 

[inocente]

So if I could not find them on the web, they don’t exist? Whew!

My, my, all those liars out there who have given accounts of his predictions.

Why are you comforted by so much cynicism about Newton scholarship in this area?

Do you believe there are no prophecies in the Bible?

Or if you believe there are prophecies, do you believe none of them have been proven to be true?

You seem to be still bucking the idea proposed by Pascal (a Catholic) and elucidated by Newton (a Protestant) two of the greatest scientific and mathematical minds in history, that the Bible contains by way of prophecies come true that Christianity is a true religion and demonstrates through prophecy, as no other religion has, that it is the true religion.

Does this argument make you uncomfortable? Why?

Ah, the ole huff and puff. I always know something’s up when you go into huff and puff mode.

All of Newton’s writings are online so it should be a doddle for you to link where he made the prediction, then we can all see his logic.

I’m off now until tomorrow, so you’ve got loads of time, no need to rush.

 

[Partinobodycula]

Does this argument make you uncomfortable? Why?

Personally, all that I’m trying to do is demonstrate what I pointed out in my first post. You’re preaching to the choir. Any skeptic who wants to, will be able to pick your prophesies apart. People see what they want to see. So the only ones that you end up convincing are the ones who already agree with you, or who want to agree with you.

You want to MAKE people see what you see. You want to show them something that proves that you’re right. But you can’t do that. People see what they want to see.

So you have to ask yourself, what do they want to see?

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Ah, the ole huff and puff. I always know something’s up when you go into huff and puff mode.

All of Newton’s writings are online so it should be a doddle for you to link where he made the prediction, then we can all see his logic.

I’m off now until tomorrow, so you’ve got loads of time, no need to rush.

Huff and puff as you flee the scene without answering any questions you were asked!

 

[Charlemagne_III]

So you have to ask yourself, what do they want to see?

Or what do they not want to see?

 

[tonyrey]

As Charles is trying to prove that the Judeo-Christian religion is authentic, he will face skeptics from all other religions as well as secular skeptics. They will claim that tricks have been used, and Charles will have to refute every one of them.

The hardest one to refute is perhaps the simplest: that passages in later books which fulfill prophecies were invented or slanted to do exactly that. For instance I just googled “nt invented prophecies” and the first hit was this - infidels.org/library/modern/paul_carlson/nt_contradictions.html

Even that one page would take a lot of work to prove to skeptics that the prophecies are genuine.

Nothing on that page has explained why the prophecies of Christ’s Passion and Death correspond so precisely to the facts described in the Gospels which themselves correspond to known cultural and archaeological facts about Jewish and Roman customs. Would all the Christians who were tortured and killed soon after the Crucifixion have chosen to suffer and die if they didn’t have convincing evidence that Jesus fulfilled the predictions made hundreds of years before He was born? Who invented His teaching which is the foundation of the principles of liberty, equality and fraternity? And why did they invent it?

The sceptics are expert in the art of destruction but what have they created? Do they live in accordance with the belief that life is valueless, purposeless and meaningless? If they don’t what is the basis of their morality? Arbitrary human conventions? Infidels have no rational foundation whatsoever for their infidelity! They would be the first to complain if they were treated in an unChristian manner in spite of all their denunciations of Christianity and rejection of its authenticity. By their fruits you shall know them…