Proof of God in Prophecy?

[tonyrey]

I don’t care if you decide to be wrong, I am just trying to evaluate your claims to decide if I should believe them.

I fail to understand why you think I decide to be wrong. I think you mean you decide I’m wrong and you don’t understand why I decide to be wrong** in your opinion**.

So as I see it the competing claims are:

A. There are real prophecies in the bible.
B. The prophecies in the bible are not real prophecies.

Here I define “real prophecy” as “a prediction of future events that is supernaturally inspired.” In other words, if someone came up with a computer model to predict the stock market, that model would not be in the business of issuing prophecies.

The evidence for claim A. is:

1. There are certain passages which appear to reference other future events in the bible.

Incorrect! What Tacitus described is not in the Bible. Do you also doubt his reports? If so why?

1. There are certain people (e.g. Newton) who did math to the bible and claimed the results of the math are prophecies about modern events.

Irrelevant to my post.

The evidence for B. is:

1. The existence of real prophecies is unlikely (because there are a great many incorrect prophecies in the world)
2. It is possible to find lots of patterns in large bodies of text which look like prophecies

Invalid deduction. “many” does not imply “all”.

The arguments against A. are:

1. Prophetic passages could be invented after the fact and are therefore not real prophecies

“could be” is an inadequate reason for a conclusion.

1. The sources of people’s (e.g. Newton’s) predictions are not available, so they could simply be made up.

Irrelevant to my post.

The arguments against B. are:

1. No, they’re totally real, you can’t prove I’m wrong. I have to say that B is looking significantly more likely to be the actual truth of the matter than A.

You are disregarding the facts Tacitus described.

How about I propose to you this test: why don’t you apply your prophetic math to the bible and discern a prophecy about what will happen at some point in the future. We can then observe if your prediction is correct. If it is false, we can agree that you’re just making things up, and the fact that some people got lucky is not evidence to the contrary.

Irrelevant to my post which has nothing to do with “prophetic math”.

 

[tonyrey]

You need to explain who made up the events, why they made them up and produce evidence that your hypothesis is credible. Is it likely that billions of people have been deceived on such an important issue for two thousand years?

You are assuming other religions are totally false…

There is abundant independent historical evidence of the Christian martyrs:

Annals - Tacitus

The problem with that quote is it seems the Christians would have met the same fate whether or not they recanted, and if they hadn’t been there any other convenient minority would have been used instead. Jews were used that way in Germany. Every religion can probably point to similar events.

The fact that others met a similar fate is irrelevant. It is sufficient that the fact was predicted in precise detail with reference to the Messiah who was generally regarded by thr Jews as a victorious king rather than a suffering servant and confirmed by a Roman historian who knew nothing about the prophecy.

You haven’t answered the questions… In particular, what is the rational foundation of infidelity? And would they complain if they were treated in an unChristian manner?

Again, just replace unChristian with unX, where X is the religion of whoever is speaking.

You are overlooking the context of the statement. The term unChristian is applied to the infidels who reject Christian beliefs and values. It does not imply they are unique in every respect.

The only rational basis of those principles is the teaching of Jesus that we are all children of the same Father in heaven. Otherwise there is no reason why we should regard every single member of the human race as a brother or sister who has the same right to life and happiness. You need to provide evidence of an alternative explanation that had existed previously.

I don’t know much about Hinduism, but without much trouble found lines from the Rigveda, composed c. 1500–1200 BCE, such as:

“Be to us easy of approach, even as a father to his son:” - 1, 9

“Agni, thou art our Providence, our Father thou - we are thy brethren and thou art our spring of life” - 31, 10

“Thou art called Father, caring even for the weak, and wisest, to the simple one thou teachest lore.” - 31, 14

hinduwebsite.com/sacredscripts/rigintro.asp

These isolated sentiments would hardly suffice as a basis for the UDHR! There has been no detailed application of them in Hinduism as there was by Jesus, no mention of forgiving your enemies, no demonstration of the equality of men, women and children, no liberty or fraternity in the caste system or the doctrine of incarnation.

A false dilemma. All religions have the same fundamental moral and spiritual beliefs and values:

Aldous Huxley - The Perennial Philosophy.

Online: archive.org/details/perennialphilosp035505mbp

Did you intend to quote him there?

Why is that relevant?

 

[inocente]

This again proves that you cannot or will not cite a specific verse in Isaiah that makes a prophecy, and then a specific fact of history that fulfills that prophecy. No one is calling you a liar. Show me the word “liar” used in my post. I just think you are not answering the question because you don’t know how to answer it or you think you are laying a trap for yourself if you do.

I cannot read your mind.

Go back and look at my post #32. I give an entire chapter, not just one measly verse. So much for your dark fantasies.

Surely you recognize that the chapter prophesies the Messiah? If not then I suggest salvation is in studying what the bible says openly and not in supposed hidden messages. (You never did say what education you have, and what resources to help you, in reading the bible. )

As a check, can you explain the difference between a prophecy and a [supposed] bible code prediction?

Snobelen’s article, if you read all of it, interpolates from Newton’s text the late 1890s for the planned return to Israel, which was the actual time of the start of the Zionist movement in Europe, and also 1944 as the date of the Restoration of the Jews to Jerusalem.

Then you admit Newton never made any 1948 prediction. Also, Snobelen’s paper was written in 2001. That’s not a prediction, that’s hindsight. I doubt you’d convince most Christians, let alone anyone of another religion.

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool. So you have to be very careful about that. After you’ve not fooled yourself, it’s easy not to fool others. You just have to be honest in a conventional way after that.” - Richard Feynman

 

[tonyrey]

I don’t know much about Hinduism, but without much trouble found lines from the Rigveda, composed c. 1500–1200 BCE, such as:

“Be to us easy of approach, even as a father to his son:” - 1, 9

“Agni, thou art our Providence, our Father thou - we are thy brethren and thou art our spring of life” - 31, 10

“Thou art called Father, caring even for the weak, and wisest, to the simple one thou teachest lore.” - 31, 14

hinduwebsite.com/sacredscripts/rigintro.asp

On investigation I discovered that “Be to us easy of approach, even as a father to his son” is a petitionary prayer a fact! Similarly “Agni, thou art our Providence, our Father thou - we are thy brethren and thou art our spring of life” and “Thou art called Father, caring even for the weak, and wisest, to the simple one thou teachest lore” are descriptive prayers that give no reason or evidence for the belief. They are not addressed to the Creator but to Agni the God of Fire. There are many truths in Hinduism but no explicit and authoritative teaching that** we are all children of the same Father in heaven **who loves us so much that He has sent His Son to liberate us from evil and expects us to follow His example by loving everyone regardless of caste, colour, creed or any other criterion.

 

[inocente]

You are assuming other religions are totally false…

I’m still going with the OP’s question: “Is there sufficient reason by way of prophetic utterances to argue that the prophecies of the Old and New Testaments give evidence that the Judeo-Christian religion is authentic?”

Here you seem to be answering: “Yes, but no more authentic than any other”.

The fact that others met a similar fate is irrelevant. It is sufficient that the fact was predicted in precise detail with reference to the Messiah who was generally regarded by thr Jews as a victorious king rather than a suffering servant and confirmed by a Roman historian who knew nothing about the prophecy.

I can only see one prediction fulfilled there, Isaiah 53:12. Someone from another religion would ask how many prophecies are there in total, and how many of them are independently corroborated to have been fulfilled?

You are overlooking the context of the statement. The term unChristian is applied to the infidels who reject Christian beliefs and values. It does not imply they are unique in every respect.

But surely Muslims would say Christians are infidels, as Christians reject their beliefs and values?

These isolated sentiments would hardly suffice as a basis for the UDHR! There has been no detailed application of them in Hinduism as there was by Jesus, no mention of forgiving your enemies, no demonstration of the equality of men, women and children, no liberty or fraternity in the caste system or the doctrine of incarnation.

We should beware of lack of knowledge. For instance, contrary to your claim: “Forgiveness is considered one of the six cardinal virtues in Hinduism. The theological basis for forgiveness in Hinduism is that a person who does not forgive carries a baggage of memories of the wrong, of negative feelings, of anger and unresolved emotions that affect his or her present as well as future. In Hinduism, not only should one forgive others, but one must also seek forgiveness if one has wronged someone else. Forgiveness is to be sought from the individual wronged, as well as society at large, by acts of charity, purification, fasting, rituals and meditative introspection.” - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forgiveness#Hinduism

As for Christianity promoting the equality of women with men, nope, that’s not going to fly. It was only with the rise of secularism, after 2000 years of Christianity, that women started to be treated equally. In Christian countries, women are still least equal in churches. When women can become priests and bishops, then and only then will your claim have a chance of getting off the ground.

 

[inocente]

On investigation I discovered that “Be to us easy of approach, even as a father to his son” is a petitionary prayer a fact! Similarly “Agni, thou art our Providence, our Father thou - we are thy brethren and thou art our spring of life” and “Thou art called Father, caring even for the weak, and wisest, to the simple one thou teachest lore” are descriptive prayers that give no reason or evidence for the belief. They are not addressed to the Creator but to Agni the God of Fire. There are many truths in Hinduism but no explicit and authoritative teaching that** we are all children of the same Father in heaven **who loves us so much that He has sent His Son to liberate us from evil and expects us to follow His example by loving everyone regardless of caste, colour, creed or any other criterion.

I’m not a Hindu, I just know how to press buttons on google. There is probably far more but it would take someone who has at least a grounding in Hinduism, all I’ve got is memories of a comparative religion course. Though I’d have thought the god-as-parent-and-us-as-children metaphor is not exactly rocket science and could be traced to many early cultures.

Again, we should beware of a lack of knowledge. On your mention of caste, I looked at Wikipedia and found that it’s not at all what you or I might have imagined:

*“There are separate seats, separate communion cups, burial grounds, and churches for members of the lower castes, especially in the Roman Catholic Church. Catholic churches in India are largely controlled by upper caste priests and nuns. Presently in India, more than 70 per cent of Catholics are Dalits, but the higher caste Catholics (30% by estimates) control 90 per cent of the Catholic churches administrative jobs. Out of the 156 catholic bishops, only six are from lower castes.” - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_among_Indian_Christians
*

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Go back and look at my post #32. I give an entire chapter, not just one measly verse. So much for your dark fantasies.

So you agree that Isaiah predicts the coming of the Messiah? And that this prophecy was fulfilled?

 

[tonyrey]

On investigation I discovered that “Be to us easy of approach, even as a father to his son” is a petitionary prayer a fact! Similarly “Agni, thou art our Providence, our Father thou - we are thy brethren and thou art our spring of life” and “Thou art called Father, caring even for the weak, and wisest, to the simple one thou teachest lore” are descriptive prayers that give no reason or evidence for the belief. They are not addressed to the Creator but to Agni the God of Fire. There are many truths in Hinduism but no explicit and authoritative teaching that** we are all children of the same Father in heaven **who loves us so much that He has sent His Son to liberate us from evil and expects us to follow His example by loving everyone regardless of caste, colour, creed or any other criterion.

Correction: a petitionary prayer** not** a fact!

 

[Charlemagne_III]

As a check, can you explain the difference between a prophecy and a [supposed] bible code prediction?

Can you explain to me why Newton’s interpolation of the prophecies is not valid?

And especially can you explain why Newton hit on the 1890s as the decade for the call of return to Jerusalem (which actually was the start of the Zionist movement in Europe) and the late 1940s as the decade of the actual return? You understand that these two events Newton predicted occurred centuries after the death of Newton. These predictions are time and place specific, which makes it really difficult to dismiss them as guesswork or nonsense.

 

[tonyrey]

I’m not a Hindu, I just know how to press buttons on google. There is probably far more but it would take someone who has at least a grounding in Hinduism, all I’ve got is memories of a comparative religion course. Though I’d have thought the god-as-parent-and-us-as-children metaphor is not exactly rocket science and could be traced to many early cultures.

Again, we should beware of a lack of knowledge. On your mention of caste, I looked at Wikipedia and found that it’s not at all what you or I might have imagined:

“There are separate seats, separate communion cups, burial grounds, and churches for members of the lower castes, especially in the Roman Catholic Church. Catholic churches in India are largely controlled by upper caste priests and nuns. Presently in India, more than 70 per cent of Catholics are Dalits, but the higher caste Catholics (30% by estimates) control 90 per cent of the Catholic churches administrative jobs. Out of the 156 catholic bishops, only six are from lower castes.” - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_among_Indian_Christians

You are equating the teaching and conduct of Christ with the activity of Christians and thereby casting doubt on the authenticity of His life, death and resurrection. In spite of Luther faith does not withstand too many assaults on reason: “non credo quia absurdum”.

 

[tonyrey]

I’m still going with the OP’s question: “Is there sufficient reason by way of prophetic utterances to argue that the prophecies of the Old and New Testaments give evidence that the Judeo-Christian religion is authentic?”

Here you seem to be answering: “Yes, but no more authentic than any other”.

Your conclusion doesn’t follow from the proposition that other religions are not totally false.

I can only see one prediction fulfilled there, Isaiah 53:12. Someone from another religion would ask how many prophecies are there in total, and how many of them are independently corroborated to have been fulfilled?

You are overlooking all the details in the Psalm alone. Perhaps you would like to explain why they are contrived and/or irrelevant.

But surely Muslims would say Christians are infidels, as Christians reject their beliefs and values?

The issue here is not Muslim prophecies - unless you can produce one which is equivalent in accuracy, precision and historicity.

We should beware of lack of knowledge. For instance, contrary to your claim: “Forgiveness is considered one of the six cardinal virtues in Hinduism. The theological basis for forgiveness in Hinduism is that a person who does not forgive carries a baggage of memories of the wrong, of negative feelings, of anger and unresolved emotions that affect his or her present as well as future. In Hinduism, not only should one forgive others, but one must also seek forgiveness if one has wronged someone else. Forgiveness is to be sought from the individual wronged, as well as society at large, by acts of charity, purification, fasting, rituals and meditative introspection.” - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forgiveness#Hinduism

Can you cite an example comparable to Jesus forgiving His executioners after they nailed Him to the Cross thereby putting into practice the precept to turn the other cheek and pray for our enemies?

As for Christianity promoting the equality of women with men, nope, that’s not going to fly. It was only with the rise of secularism, after 2000 years of Christianity, that women started to be treated equally. In Christian countries, women are still least equal in churches. When women can become priests and bishops, then and only then will your claim have a chance of getting off the ground.

Yet another example of judging Christ by Christians. :tsktsk:

BTW You haven’t explained who made up the events recorded in the Gospels, why they made them up and produced evidence that your hypothesis is credible.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

As for Christianity promoting the equality of women with men, nope, that’s not going to fly. It was only with the rise of secularism, after 2000 years of Christianity, that women started to be treated equally. In Christian countries, women are still least equal in churches. When women can become priests and bishops, then and only then will your claim have a chance of getting off the ground.

The Catholic Church, unlike many Protestant denominations, has stayed true to the teaching of St. Paul, with whom you don’t seem to agree, regarding the role of women in the Church.

1 Corinthians 14:34

But of course, you will call this verse mining, which is what you always call it when Scriptures prove you wrong.

 

[JapaneseKappa]

I fail to understand why you think I decide to be wrong. I think you mean you decide I’m wrong and you don’t understand why I decide to be wrong** in your opinion**.
Incorrect! What Tacitus described is not in the Bible. Do you also doubt his reports? If so why?

Invalid deduction. “many” does not imply “all”.

I did not say that it did. Merely that the set of prophecies that turn out to be bunk is about the same size as the set of all prophecies. My argument wasn’t “there haven’t been any, so its impossible” my argument was “the set of false prophecies is very large, so when presented with an arbitrary prophecy, that prophecy is most likely to be a member of the set of false prophecies.”

“could be” is an inadequate reason for a conclusion.

Unless your conclusion is “it could be.” We have a balance, and on one side is the claim that an ancient prophecy is real, and on the other side is the claim that it was made up.

Given that we have already established it is very unlikely that any particular prophecy is unlikely to be real, the possibility of a post-hoc prophecy–while much more mundane–seems like a much more realistic position.

You are disregarding the facts Tacitus described.
Irrelevant to my post which has nothing to do with “prophetic math”.

I’m not sure why you keep referring to Tacitus. Unless I’m mistaken, you are citing Tacitus to make the claim that people would have behaved differently if Christianity were not the true religion. But the topic is whether or not prophecies constitute proof of God. I haven’t seen anything in your references to Tacitus that proves or even hints at “people were motivated because of real prophecies.”

 

[elijah]

I’m not a Hindu, I just know how to press buttons on google. There is probably far more but it would take someone who has at least a grounding in Hinduism, all I’ve got is memories of a comparative religion course. Though I’d have thought the god-as-parent-and-us-as-children metaphor is not exactly rocket science and could be traced to many early cultures.

…]

Christianity supersedes philosophical Christianity (and by association; similar philosophies/religions) by virtue of the former being the latter fulfilled / materialized.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

I did not say that it did. Merely that the set of prophecies that turn out to be bunk is about the same size as the set of all prophecies. My argument wasn’t “there haven’t been any, so its impossible” my argument was “the set of false prophecies is very large, so when presented with an arbitrary prophecy, that prophecy is most likely to be a member of the set of false prophecies.”

So have you ever found a prophecy that you would regard as a true prophecy?

If not, would that suggest that you find all prophecies to be bunk?

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Yet another example of judging Christ by Christians. :tsktsk:

Oh so true. We cannot judge the teachings of Christ by the behavior of Judas.

 

[tonyrey]

I fail to understand why you think I decide

“arbitrary” begs the question.

“could be” is an inadequate reason for a conclusion.

Unless your conclusion is “it could be.” We have a balance, and on one side is the claim that an ancient prophecy is real, and on the other side is the claim that it was made up.

You are overlooking the factor of probability.

Given that we have already established it is very unlikely that any particular prophecy is unlikely to be real, the possibility of a post-hoc prophecy–while much more mundane–seems like a much more realistic position.

How has it been established? It is like saying that if there is more than one scientific theory they are all unlikely…

You are disregarding the facts Tacitus described.
Irrelevant to my post which has nothing to do with “prophetic math”.

I’m not sure why you keep referring to Tacitus. Unless I’m mistaken, you are citing Tacitus to make the claim that people would have behaved differently if Christianity were not the true religion.

Incorrect. A Roman historian with no vested interest and no knowledge of Jewish prophecies has confirmed the truth of the predictions of the crucfixion of Jesus by Isaiah and the Psalmist.

But the topic is whether or not prophecies constitute proof of God. I haven’t seen anything in your references to Tacitus that proves or even hints at “people were motivated because of real prophecies.”

The topic is “Proof of God in Prophecy”,** not **“Were people motivated because of real prophecies”?

 

[tonyrey]

So have you ever found a prophecy that you would regard as a true prophecy?

If not, would that suggest that you find all prophecies to be bunk?

It sounds like a preconceived conclusion.

 

[JapaneseKappa]

So have you ever found a prophecy that you would regard as a true prophecy?

If not, would that suggest that you find all prophecies to be bunk?

I have never heard of such a prophecy. It means that I would view any and all claims of real prophecies skeptically.

Have you ever found a prophecy that you would regard as a true prophecy? Does that mean you carefully evaluate every strip-mall fortune teller to make sure that their prophecies are not legitimate?

 

[JapaneseKappa]

“arbitrary” begs the question.

It begs what question? Is there some feature which makes the biblical prophecies more true than Asimov’s predictions about technology? More true than Nostradamus’ prophecies? The prophecies of Mohammed? The Oomoto sect? Jayabaya?

“arbitrary” begs the question.
You are overlooking the factor of probability.

How has it been established? It is like saying that if there is more than one scientific theory they are all unlikely…

Hardly, the fact is that people make up predictions all the time. Many newspapers have small sections dedicated to them (i.e. horoscopes) and some strip malls have fortune tellers. Many people even believe that prophecies from those sources have come true for them! Does that make those prophecies real? No, the probability states that if you have enough people guessing, or make vague enough predictions, that some of them will end up coming true by pure chance.

If we compare the set of scientific theories that end up being correct to the set of all scientific theories, we’re not nearly as bad off as prophecies. But that is beside the point, the point being that people (i.e. scientists) are skeptical of new theories. They have gone out of their way to make a system where new theories have to be carefully evaluated and reviewed before being accepted. If someone showed up at a university claiming to have discovered cold fusion in his garage, do you seriously think the scientists of the world would just take that claim at face value?

That’s basically what we’re being asked to do with these sorts of ancient prophecies. There are some random writings from thousands of years ago which claim prophecies were fulfilled, and we are expected to take that at face value? Would you believe that an ancient fisherman had invented cold fusion just because an ancient historian said so?