Proof of God in Prophecy?

[tonyrey]

It begs what question? Is there some feature which makes the biblical prophecies more true than Asimov’s predictions about technology? More true than Nostradamus’ prophecies? The prophecies of Mohammed? The Oomoto sect? Jayabaya?

Hardly, the fact is that people make up predictions all the time. Many newspapers have small sections dedicated to them (i.e. horoscopes) and some strip malls have fortune tellers. Many people even believe that prophecies from those sources have come true for them! Does that make those prophecies real? No, the probability states that if you have enough people guessing, or make vague enough predictions, that some of them will end up coming true by pure chance.

If we compare the set of scientific theories that end up being correct to the set of all scientific theories, we’re not nearly as bad off as prophecies. But that is beside the point, the point being that people (i.e. scientists) are skeptical of new theories. They have gone out of their way to make a system where new theories have to be carefully evaluated and reviewed before being accepted. If someone showed up at a university claiming to have discovered cold fusion in his garage, do you seriously think the scientists of the world would just take that claim at face value?

That’s basically what we’re being asked to do with these sorts of ancient prophecies. There are some random writings from thousands of years ago which claim prophecies were fulfilled, and we are expected to take that at face value? Would you believe that an ancient fisherman had invented cold fusion just because an ancient historian said so?

Your implication that modern scientific theories are **necessarily **superior to ancient explanations is absurd. Do you believe you don’t have free will and can’t choose what to think merely because a neuroscientist claims to have discovered it doesn’t exist? :ehh:

 

[inocente]

Can you explain to me why Newton’s interpolation of the prophecies is not valid?

And especially can you explain why Newton hit on the 1890s as the decade for the call of return to Jerusalem (which actually was the start of the Zionist movement in Europe) and the late 1940s as the decade of the actual return? You understand that these two events Newton predicted occurred centuries after the death of Newton. These predictions are time and place specific, which makes it really difficult to dismiss them as guesswork or nonsense.

1. Newton didn’t predict the dates, they were filled in after the event with the benefit of hindsight.
2. If the Book of Daniel is inspired by God and we were intended to find hidden messages in it then the dates would be exact since God is omniscient.
3. God is light not darkness, whereas hidden bible messages are, by definition, occult. They are nothing to do with Christianity. Those like Newton who believe in them are under the spell of the Great Deceiver.
4. The bible is given to us for salvation, not for superstitious divination.

I’ll ask again: Have a look at the CCC and at dictionaries, then please can you explain what you think is the difference between a prophecy and a [supposed] hidden message?

 

[JapaneseKappa]

Your implication that modern scientific theories are **necessarily **superior to ancient explanations is absurd. Do you believe you don’t have free will and can’t choose what to think merely because a neuroscientist claims to have discovered it doesn’t exist? :ehh:

Where did I say that? My point was that carefully, skeptically evaluated claims are better.

 

[inocente]

You are equating the teaching and conduct of Christ with the activity of Christians and thereby casting doubt on the authenticity of His life, death and resurrection. In spite of Luther faith does not withstand too many assaults on reason: “non credo quia absurdum”.

Special pleading. You equated the teaching and conduct of Brahma with the activity of Hindus, yet you change the rules for Christianity. You keep doing this Tony, you assume others’ beliefs must be subservient to yours.

Also, we can do without any sectarianism can’t we?

 

[inocente]

Your conclusion doesn’t follow from the proposition that other religions are not totally false.

You are overlooking all the details in the Psalm alone. Perhaps you would like to explain why they are contrived and/or irrelevant.

I got lost as to what your argument is here. Is it that all religions are equally authentic, or that some are more authentic than others, or …?

I am arguing (a) that supposedly hidden messages are not prophecies and are bogus; (b) that prophecies alone do not provide sufficient evidence that Christianity is authentic; (c) we walk by faith, not by sight.

The issue here is not Muslim prophecies - unless you can produce one which is equivalent in accuracy, precision and historicity.

I can’t see why you’re now referring to prophecies on this point. You said “You haven’t answered the questions… In particular, what is the rational foundation of infidelity? And would they complain if they were treated in an unChristian manner?” and I responded with “surely Muslims would say Christians are infidels, as Christians reject their beliefs and values?”.

Can you cite an example comparable to Jesus forgiving His executioners after they nailed Him to the Cross thereby putting into practice the precept to turn the other cheek and pray for our enemies?

I already said I’m not a Hindu, so no, how would I know? A Hindu could cite some event important to his religion and ask if you have anything comparable. Everyone can try special pleading for their own religion.

Yet another example of judging Christ by Christians. :tsktsk:

Please quote where you think Jesus says women are equal to men. Then state why you think Christians totally ignored this teaching for two thousand years. Then why Christians apparently only noticed the teaching when secularists started to bring about equality. Then why many churches, including your own, still ignore the teaching.

A more simple explanation is that Jesus did not teach equality, but you wish He had. O ye moral relativists. :tsktsk:

BTW You haven’t explained who made up the events recorded in the Gospels, why they made them up and produced evidence that your hypothesis is credible.

It’s not my hypothesis, I’m just looking at it from the point of view of other religions. Take away the special pleading, level off the playing field, and we walk by faith, not by sight.

 

[inocente]

The Catholic Church, unlike many Protestant denominations, has stayed true to the teaching of St. Paul, with whom you don’t seem to agree, regarding the role of women in the Church.

1 Corinthians 14:34

But of course, you will call this verse mining, which is what you always call it when Scriptures prove you wrong.

Now, now.

You don’t appear to have noticed that Tony is arguing that Jesus taught equality, and I’m saying He didn’t, and you just contradicted him and gave me some ammo.

I’ll let you two sort out which of you is the most authentic moral relativist.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

I did not say that it did. Merely that the set of prophecies that turn out to be bunk is about the same size as the set of all prophecies. My argument wasn’t “there haven’t been any, so its impossible” my argument was “the set of false prophecies is very large, so when presented with an arbitrary prophecy, that prophecy is most likely to be a member of the set of false prophecies.”

So when Isaac Newton argues that there are Biblical prophecies both from the Old Testament and the New Testament that will be fulfilled, and his calculations point to the return of the Jews to Israel in the late 1940s (and that actually happens two centuries after Newton’s death) are you saying Newton’s calculations are bunk and he is is behaving no better than a carnival fortune teller?

 

[Charlemagne_III]

1. Newton didn’t predict the dates, they were filled in after the event with the benefit of hindsight.
2. If the Book of Daniel is inspired by God and we were intended to find hidden messages in it then the dates would be exact since God is omniscient.
3. God is light not darkness, whereas hidden bible messages are, by definition, occult. They are nothing to do with Christianity. Those like Newton who believe in them are under the spell of the Great Deceiver.
4. The bible is given to us for salvation, not for superstitious divination.

I’ll ask again: Have a look at the CCC and at dictionaries, then please can you explain what you think is the difference between a prophecy and a [supposed] hidden message?

Now you are saying that Newton was duped by the Devil?

My, my, since his calculations about the return of the Jews to Israel are spot on, how could he have been duped? The Devil only tells lies, not the truth. Or have you also overlooked that saying of Jesus? You need to mine the New Testament verses instead of being a Baptist who seems not to believe in them.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

I’ll ask again: Have a look at the CCC and at dictionaries, then please can you explain what you think is the difference between a prophecy and a [supposed] hidden message?

Have a real close look at the Book of Revelations and tell me there is no hidden message of prophecy there.

 

[JapaneseKappa]

So when Isaac Newton argues that there are Biblical prophecies both from the Old Testament and the New Testament that will be fulfilled, and his calculations point to the return of the Jews to Israel in the late 1940s (and that actually happens two centuries after Newton’s death) are you saying Newton’s calculations are bunk and he is is behaving no better than a carnival fortune teller?

I guess we’ll find out in 2060, when Newton predicts the world will end. Since you clearly think his predictions are better than those of a carnival fortune teller, are you advising people to prepare for 2060?

 

[Charlemagne_III]

I guess we’ll find out in 2060, when Newton predicts the world will end. Since you clearly think his predictions are better than those of a carnival fortune teller, are you advising people to prepare for 2060?

Based on his accuracy with predicting the return of the Jews to Israel, yes I am.

God works in mysterious ways his wonders to reveal.

Or as St. Paul said: I Thessalonians 5:19

“Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophetic utterances. Test everything; retain what is good.”

Newton will be tested again in 2060. :bigyikes:

 

[Charlemagne_III]

I’ll let you two sort out which of you is the most authentic moral relativist.

Neither of us.

Equality does not mean we must all be able to do the same thing.

A man is not equal to a woman.

A man cannot bear a child in his womb, because he hasn’t got one.

Equality means we are all equal before the law.

Or we are all equally the children of God.

Or we are all created to love and to be loved.

Etc. etc.

 

[Partinobodycula]

Based on his accuracy with predicting the return of the Jews to Israel, yes I am.

And yet you’re not urging people to flee the “Whore of Babylon”.

I find this to be a curious contradiction.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

And yet you’re not urging people to flee the “Whore of Babylon”.

I find this to be a curious contradiction.

Who exactly is the Whore of Babylon?

 

[Partinobodycula]

Who exactly is the Whore of Babylon?

Thanks to this thread, and the links that you and others have provided, along with trusty old Google, I now have a much better understanding of Isaac Newton’s interpretation of biblical prophecy. I’m not sure if I should thank you for that or not. I’m also not sure that Isaac Newton’s predictions are quite as accurate as you seem to think they are. I must confess however that some of his writings can be difficult to slog through, so I can understand how disagreements might arise concerning their accuracy. One thing does become abundantly clear however, Isaac Newton considered the Whore of Babylon to be, the Roman Catholic Church.

Being familiar with his writings yourself you must certainly be aware of this, which makes your previous statement, that based upon the accuracy of his predictions you’re advising people to prepare for 2060, somewhat surprising. If you’re giving credence to his insights into biblical prophecy shouldn’t you also give credence to his identification of the RCC as the Whore of Babylon? After all, his prediction of 2060 is pretty much based on it.

But then again, as I always say, people see what they want to see. I just found the inconsistency rather curious. But if you’re ok with it, who am I to judge.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Being familiar with his writings yourself you must certainly be aware of this, which makes your previous statement, that based upon the accuracy of his predictions you’re advising people to prepare for 2060, somewhat surprising. If you’re giving credence to his insights into biblical prophecy shouldn’t you also give credence to his identification of the RCC as the Whore of Babylon? After all, his prediction of 2060 is pretty much based on it.

But then again, as I always say, people see what they want to see. I just found the inconsistency rather curious. But if you’re ok with it, who am I to judge.

And I expect you and Newton to see what you want to see.

The early Church did not regard itself as the Whore of Babylon, but rather pagan Rome had earned that title.

When Charlemagne was crowned emperor by the pope, the Catholic Church was corrupted by power and greed. There is hardly any Catholic historian who will not admit that the papacy had entered a downward spiritual spiral by wrapping itself in temporal power. So yes, in a way, the Whore of Babylon is a title that Newton applied to the Catholic Church, and yes, the Church had earned that title, and yes, there is every reason to believe that Scripture speak of the Whore of Babylon is speaking of Rome as the center of world corruption and the decline of spiritual purity in the papacy, even to the point of the papacy being bought and sold any number of times until it could be purified once again by the Vatican states becoming part of Italy and the papacy reduced to a few acres inside Rome barely a hundred years ago.

Despite those sad centuries of human corruption, the Church prevailed, as Christ promised it would prevail, against the gates of Hell. Outside the papacy, and in spite of the papacy, the Church has continued in its salvific mission even to this day.

 

[tonyrey]

You are equating the teaching and conduct of Christ with the activity of Christians and thereby casting doubt on the authenticity of His life, death and resurrection. In spite of Luther faith does not withstand too many assaults on reason: “non credo quia absurdum”.

Was Brahma a historical person who lived on this earth and said the prayers you quoted? If not your comparison is unjustified.

You keep doing this Tony, you assume others’ beliefs must be subservient to yours.

Ad hominem based on a false deduction.

Also, we can do without any sectarianism can’t we?

To refer to a statement by Luther is hardly sectarianism when it is an incontrovertible fact that if “reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has” there is no defence against the charge of absurdity. Do you subscribe to that belief?

 

[tonyrey]

Now, now.

You don’t appear to have noticed that Tony is arguing that Jesus taught equality, and I’m saying He didn’t, and you just contradicted him and gave me some ammo.

I’ll let you two sort out which of you is the most authentic moral relativist.

Your deductions are becoming more and more far-fetched. Jesus did not teach that men, women and children are equal in **every **respect.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Despite those sad centuries of human corruption, the Church prevailed, as Christ promised it would prevail, against the gates of Hell. Outside the papacy, and in spite of the papacy, the Church has continued in its salvific mission even to this day.

So yes, I think it possible to speak of the coronation of Charlemagne (800 AD) as a reasonable date from which to add the 1260 years that brings us to 2060 as an approximate time for Armageddon according to Newton’s calculations. I do not offer that date as a fixed or absolute date, but rather as a reasonable date based on Newton’s interpretation of Scripture. Since Newton was spot on with respect to the return of the Jews to Israel, we should give serious consideration to this other prophecy, as St. Paul said. The time will come for testing Newton’s calculation. Since he was right in so many other respects concerning the laws of nature and the return of the Jews to Israel in1948, I would be willing to grant him serious consideration as to the final prophecy.

I will not be alive in 2060 (if I am I will be 119 years old)!

 

[Charlemagne_III]

To refer to a statement by Luther is hardly sectarianism when it is an incontrovertible fact that if “reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has” there is no defence against the charge of absurdity. Do you subscribe to that belief?

Good point. Luther hated Aquinas and called him a chatterbox.

Most likely because his reasoning powers were not up to the job of grasping Aquinas.