Proof of Roman Catholic moral superiority?

[whatischarity]

I understand the doctrine that the Roman Catholic religion is the one Church founded by Jesus Christ and as such it provides all the means of grace whereby man can best acheive union with God. I am wondering, because of this, is there conclusive proof readily available showing that Roman Catholics are the most moral of people?

 

[KathySFSD]

Is this a serious question? I doubt that anyone, anywhere could measure such a thing.

 

[jmcrae]

I understand the doctrine that the Roman Catholic religion is the one Church founded by Jesus Christ and as such it provides all the means of grace whereby man can best acheive union with God. I am wondering, because of this, is there conclusive proof readily available showing that Roman Catholics are the most moral of people?

NOPE. The Catholic Church is a hospital for sinners. There are other organizations where the people are far more moral (the Mennonite church, for example) because they exclude sinners from their midst.

We, on the other hand, seek out sinners and ask them to come and join us, so that they can be forgiven and learn how to improve themselves - and they (we) are all on a journey; most of us have not yet arrived at moral perfection.

 

[LilyM]

I understand the doctrine that the Roman Catholic religion is the one Church founded by Jesus Christ and as such it provides all the means of grace whereby man can best acheive union with God. I am wondering, because of this, is there conclusive proof readily available showing that Roman Catholics are the most moral of people?

No, any more than there is evidence that the Jews, who were especially favoured and guided by God - called by HIM His chosen people - and given many extraordinary blessings by Him - were morally superior to the nations/religions around them.

It’s one thing for God to give us extra gifts, it’s quite another for us to take full advantage of those gifts so as to truly become morally exceptional. He certainly forces us to do no such thing.

 

[whatischarity]

No, any more than there is evidence that the Jews, who were especially favoured and guided by God - called by HIM His chosen people - and given many extraordinary blessings by Him - were morally superior to the nations/religions around them.

It’s one thing for God to give us extra gifts, it’s quite another for us to take full advantage of those gifts so as to truly become morally exceptional. He certainly forces us to do no such thing.

I must admit I am not much of a historian, but I did think the Israelites were morally superior to the other nations of their time. I guess I based this on who were the gods of the Romans and Greeks - it seems to me that some of their gods were practitioners of vices.

 

[whatischarity]

NOPE. The Catholic Church is a hospital for sinners. There are other organizations where the people are far more moral (the Mennonite church, for example) because they exclude sinners from their midst.

We, on the other hand, seek out sinners and ask them to come and join us, so that they can be forgiven and learn how to improve themselves - and they (we) are all on a journey; most of us have not yet arrived at moral perfection.

I didn’t mean to imply that Catholics are perfect as I do acknowledge all are sinners, but shouldn’t the improvement that you write of after they join the church and are forgiven and have access to the sacraments result in a notable change? I am thinking of Jesus’ analogy to the seed falling on the good soil and yeilding fruit or the men with the talents of silver who obtained more talents trough their efforts for their master or Jesus telling the woman found in adultery to “sin no more”. You know the old saying, “The proof is in the pudding.”? If the Church has better teacings coupled with the means of grace and it does teach the need to do good as a proof of faith, isn’t it counter-intuitive to think that this would have no visible impact.

 

[whatischarity]

Is this a serious question? I doubt that anyone, anywhere could measure such a thing.

I have been reading what people have been posting in the “traditionalist” section of the forums concerning “No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church”. Some of the Catholics there argue that that phrase must be taken very literally. Since hell is so bad and heaven so good and I have an analytical mind, I figured the results of joining the Catholic Church should be discernible and maybe that could be used to get more people to join. You know, a positive incentive that they will become more Christ-like instead of a negative one that you will end up in hell due to your wickedness if you don’t join.

 

[davidv]

I didn’t mean to imply that Catholics are perfect as I do acknowledge all are sinners, but shouldn’t the improvement that you write of after they join the church and are forgiven and have access to the sacraments result in a notable change? I am thinking of Jesus’ analogy to the seed falling on the good soil and yeilding fruit or the men with the talents of silver who obtained more talents trough their efforts for their master or Jesus telling the woman found in adultery to “sin no more”. You know the old saying, “The proof is in the pudding.”? If the Church has better teacings coupled with the means of grace and it does teach the need to do good as a proof of faith, isn’t it counter-intuitive to think that this would have no visible impact.

What makes you think that there is no improvement in those who join the Church?

 

[puzzleannie]

I understand the doctrine that the Roman Catholic religion is the one Church founded by Jesus Christ and as such it provides all the means of grace whereby man can best acheive union with God. I am wondering, because of this, is there conclusive proof readily available showing that Roman Catholics are the most moral of people?

you are confusing two things, Catholic teaching on morality and her authority to teach, and the moral behavior, or failings, of individual Catholics. They are not the same. Neither would it be fair to bring up the teachings of any other religion or denomination, and hold each and every member of that group accountable for the actions of some who fail to live up to those teachings.

 

[mark_a]

I am wondering, because of this, is there conclusive proof readily available showing that Roman Catholics are the most moral of people?

We’re all still waiting on conclusive proof that the God of the Roman Catholics exists.

 

[thistle]

We’re all still waiting on conclusive proof that the God of the Roman Catholics exists.

Why does your profile say you are a Catholic?
Your comment and signature line would indicate otherwise.

 

[LilyM]

I must admit I am not much of a historian, but I did think the Israelites were morally superior to the other nations of their time. I guess I based this on who were the gods of the Romans and Greeks - it seems to me that some of their gods were practitioners of vices.

Yes, but we read that the Israelites had a bad habit of straying from God’s ways and joining their Egyptian/Roman/Greek/Canaanite/Babylonian neighbours, worshipping those same deities too.

And I don’t think the morality of a people necessarily relates to the morality of their gods. In spite of the bad example of some (not all) members of their pantheons, your average Roman or Greek - or Hindu for that matter - seems to not have been unusually amoral. It’s not like all or most of them were womanisers (or incestuous or pedophiles or wanton killers and torturers or whatnot) just because Jupiter or Zeus was, for example.

Of course their ruling classes were atrocious, and that’s who we hear about. Ruling classes are not representative by the way, just as our celebrities and politicians aren’t representative of the behaviour of most Americans or Australians. And look at Israel’s ruling classes - David the adulterer and murderer, Solomon who kept a harem, and most of their descendants, right down to Herod the Great and his sons. They were no angels morally speaking either.

 

[JohnCS]

It was said that we would be recognized by the works that we do! I don’t think that anyone has done extensive studies, but where ever there is strife or suffering you will find the church there trying to help. At least, it seems that way to me. I believe that someone could look to see who has given the most to those in need, who has the most out reach programs around the world. I’d bet that the Church or church related groups are in the forefront (maybe because we are a very large group). Does this make catholics morally superior? I don’t think so, but it is a good measure of the works that we do.

 

[Shin]

I understand the doctrine that the Roman Catholic religion is the one Church founded by Jesus Christ and as such it provides all the means of grace whereby man can best acheive union with God. I am wondering, because of this, is there conclusive proof readily available showing that Roman Catholics are the most moral of people?

The evidence is the saints of the Catholic Church, if you look at their lives you will see what the most moral life is. Because they are the people who lived most like Christ.

‘Humble yourself before God; lose yourself in the very depths of that sacred desert of which I have, spoken to you; be absorbed by the Sovereign Good, consumed by the sacred fire of love.’

St. Paul of the Cross

‘Oh! Lord, I desire thee wholly, for in thy clear and strong light I see that the soul can never be at peace until she has attained her last perfection. Oh, sweet Lord! if I believed that I should lose one spark of thee, I could no longer live.’

St. Catherine of Genoa

‘Blessed the one who seated in his cell like Angels in heaven keeps his thoughts pure and with his mouth sings praise to the One who has authority over everything that breathe.’

St. Ephrem of Syria

‘Wherefore, it is supreme ignorance for the soul to think that it will be able to pass to this high estate of union with God if first it void not the desire of all things, natural and supernatural, which may hinder it. . . for there is the greatest possible distance between these things and that which comes to pass in this estate, which is naught else than transformation in God. For this reason Our Lord, when showing us this path, said through Saint Luke: Qui non renuntiat omnibus quoe possidet, non potest meus esse discipulus. This signifies: He that renounces not all things that he possesses with his will cannot be My disciple. And this is evident; for the doctrine that the Son of God came to teach was contempt for all things, whereby a man might receive as a reward the Spirit of God in himself. For, as long as the soul rejects not all things, it has no capacity to receive the Spirit of God in pure transformation.’

‘. . .Perfect love of God renders death agreeable, making the soul taste the greatest sweetness therein. The soul that loves is inundated with a torrent of delights at the approach of that moment when she is about to enjoy the full possession of her Beloved. On the point of being delivered from this prison of the body, she seems already to contemplate the glories of Paradise and all within her is transformed into love.’

St. John of the Cross

 

[whatischarity]

What makes you think that there is no improvement in those who join the Church?

I believe there is improvement and for that reason I was asking if the improvement is easily measureable in some way. The first 3 responders are the ones who responded in the negative as to it being measureable.

 

[whatischarity]

Now there is an answer that makes sense to me: The saints are examples of the benefits of the graces available through the church. However, a statistitian (not me) might call them “outliers”: those that exist at the extreme ends. So there would be great saints and great sinners. What about measuring the mean or average? Any way of doing that?

 

[StrawberryJam]

Now there is an answer that makes sense to me: The saints are examples of the benefits of the graces available through the church. However, a statistitian (not me) might call them “outliers”: those that exist at the extreme ends. So there would be great saints and great sinners. What about measuring the mean or average? Any way of doing that?

On individual moral topics there may be some things out there that would show you what you are trying to look for.

For instance, take divorce for example. I have seen some numbers that indicate catholics are slightly less prone to it than other christians, or non believers in general. Overall, christians have no actual moral superiority when push comes to shove there.

You could go over each topic you feel directly speaks to christian morals, and go from there. I am assuming you are looking for actual numbers of people that are catholic and actually do what they say they believe in as compared to other groups. If you find out anything noteworthy in your search, please let me know. I’m afraid you will come up with zip to prove any such superiority(based on the christian yardstick), and may even find some things to indicate a lack of.

 

[mark_a]

Why does your profile say you are a Catholic?
Your comment and signature line would indicate otherwise.

The signature is a head fake for the Catholic slam dunk (contraception). It links to an article about the very Catholic views about contraception by the original reformers

The desire for conclusive proof of God is maybe more of a personal struggle of mine.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I understand the doctrine that the Roman Catholic religion is the one Church founded by Jesus Christ and as such it provides all the means of grace whereby man can best acheive union with God. I am wondering, because of this, is there conclusive proof readily available showing that Roman Catholics are the most moral of people?

The Roman Catholic Church is not the one Church founded by Jesus Christ in the first place. When you get this wrong it is hard for others to trust the rest.

The Catholic Church, which is made up of 22 separate sui juris Chruches in communion with each other, is the one Church founded by Jesus Christ. The Roman (or Latin) Catholic Church is just one of those 22 Churches, it is the largest of them all but that does not make it any more superior than all the others.

 

[whatischarity]

The Roman Catholic Church is not the one Church founded by Jesus Christ in the first place. When you get this wrong it is hard for others to trust the rest.

My apologies for the poor choice of wording. I did not mean to offend. (BTW, When I was in 7th grade, I regularly was an altar boy in a Byzantine Church) If you get a chance, what are your thoughts on my question?