Proof of Roman Catholic moral superiority?

[whatischarity]

It was said that we would be recognized by the works that we do! I don’t think that anyone has done extensive studies, but where ever there is strife or suffering you will find the church there trying to help. At least, it seems that way to me. I believe that someone could look to see who has given the most to those in need, who has the most out reach programs around the world. I’d bet that the Church or church related groups are in the forefront (maybe because we are a very large group). Does this make catholics morally superior? I don’t think so, but it is a good measure of the works that we do.

I know where I live the newspaper has an annual fundraiser for the community and this year a Roman Catholic ran it. There is also a Catholic university and 2 Catholic hospitals and a Catholic high school and lots of Catholic grade schools plus a number of convents. Seems to me this is evidence of Catholics utilizing the grace available to them to do good for others. I don’t think any other religion has a many schools for thier young and the legacy of Catholic hospitals at least in the US is impressive. Also, I don’t know of many other religions that have organizations of cloistered nuns and brothers or have something similar to nuns. Additionally, the celibate priesthood is a sign of sacrifice for religion. I think all these things could be used as examples demonstrating the work of grace in the Church. Perhaps you are right that these acts do not constitute “moral superiority”. That was probagbly not the best choice of words but I can see you understood what I was getting at.

 

[StrawberryJam]

I know where I live the newspaper has an annual fundraiser for the community and this year a Roman Catholic ran it. There is also a Catholic university and 2 Catholic hospitals and a Catholic high school and lots of Catholic grade schools plus a number of convents. Seems to me this is evidence of Catholics utilizing the grace available to them to do good for others. I don’t think any other religion has a many schools for thier young and the legacy of Catholic hospitals at least in the US is impressive. Also, I don’t know of many other religions that have organizations of cloistered nuns and brothers or have something similar to nuns. Additionally, the celibate priesthood is a sign of sacrifice for religion. I think all these things could be used as examples demonstrating the work of grace in the Church. Perhaps you are right that these acts do not constitute “moral superiority”. That was probagbly not the best choice of words but I can see you understood what I was getting at.

The Bill and (Melinda?) Gates foundation does a few things (wonder if it’s still called that now?)
Many organizations do good for others, and themselves. Other religions have monastics as you know. I am not trying to take anything away from the wonderful contributions the catholic church has made, but I think it is not the whole story.
What is the replacement rate on hospitals/school closings? And, when you say school are you also including schools of higher education like Notre Dame and the many others that are basically secular schools?

 

[StillWondering]

I understand the doctrine that the Roman Catholic religion is the one Church founded by Jesus Christ and as such it provides all the means of grace whereby man can best acheive union with God. I am wondering, because of this, is there conclusive proof readily available showing that Roman Catholics are the most moral of people?

The Church is solid and steadfast on the moral teaching. As for the practice, well the Church is the heaven for sinners and saints alike. We are here to make the journey together. If the Church is not a heaven for sinners, I would always feel out of place =).

 

[hellopeople]

There is definitely no conclusive proof that Catholics are the most moral of people. There are great people of pretty much every faith. And there are horrible people of every faith as well. If one were to follow the moral rules of any religion, they would be great people no matter what particular religion they are following. The problem is that no one is perfect, and most people are FAR from perfect. According to statistics there are about a billion Catholics. Many of these people are not good people.

Basically, what I am saying is that no, there is not any conclusive proof that Catholics are more morally sound than any other spiritual (or non spiritual) group.

 

[StrawberryJam]

There is definitely no conclusive proof that Catholics are the most moral of people. There are great people of pretty much every faith. And there are horrible people of every faith as well. If one were to follow the moral rules of any religion, they would be great people no matter what particular religion they are following. The problem is that no one is perfect, and most people are FAR from perfect. According to statistics there are about a billion Catholics. Many of these people are not good people.

Basically, what I am saying is that no, there is not any conclusive proof that Catholics are more morally sound than any other spiritual (or non spiritual) group.

hands clapping

I am willing to hear evidence to the contrary, but since I have not, and since that has been a very very large reason I stopped going to daily masses, and have decided to take a break from my investigation (in the real time way, not online way) of the catholic faith, I can tell you this is a huge “stumbling block”

 

[jmcrae]

hands clapping

I am willing to hear evidence to the contrary, but since I have not, and since that has been a very very large reason I stopped going to daily masses, and have decided to take a break from my investigation (in the real time way, not online way) of the catholic faith, I can tell you this is a huge “stumbling block”

If we were all perfect, then on what basis would we be able to let you join?

 

[StrawberryJam]

If we were all perfect, then on what basis would we be able to let you join?

Straw man.

Not expecting perfection. I am however wondering why all the “right and proper” sacraments are not helping people become any better at these christian moral value things than any other religious or even non religious type.

It makes me wonder if there is any grace from these things. It’s claimed there is, but where is it all going?

 

[jmcrae]

Straw man.

Not expecting perfection. I am however wondering why all the “right and proper” sacraments are not helping people become any better at these christian moral value things than any other religious or even non religious type.

How do you know that they aren’t? In my own case, I see a vast improvement in myself since I started going to Confession and receiving Holy Communion. I’m not going to try to speak for anyone else, though.

It makes me wonder if there is any grace from these things. It’s claimed there is, but where is it all going?

I don’t know what you mean. Where are you looking for it? No other religion has produced anyone like Mother Teresa.

 

[whatischarity]

It makes me wonder if there is any grace from these things. It’s claimed there is, but where is it all going?

That is the question. I got to say it has taken a very long time but I think I am now a better person than I was previously and I have been kind of Catholic all my life. So micro-goodness but no macro-goodness?

 

[hellopeople]

I don’t know what you mean. Where are you looking for it? No other religion has produced anyone like Mother Teresa.

What a horrible argument. For you to say that there has never been a Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Jew, etc. that has been as committed to helping others as Mother Teresa is quite ignorant. Also, there have been some people that think she wasn’t all that great of a person. Those people are atheists with an obvious agenda, so I would have to do my own research to really make a stance on it. BUT, I do know that there have been people of many faiths that were as dedicated to helping others as Mother Teresa.

 

[StrawberryJam]

How do you know that they aren’t? In my own case, I see a vast improvement in myself since I started going to Confession and receiving Holy Communion. I’m not going to try to speak for anyone else, though.

 

[jmcrae]

What a horrible argument. For you to say that there has never been a Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Jew, etc. that has been as committed to helping others as Mother Teresa is quite ignorant.

Name names.

It’s fine to say “Well, there must be Hindus, Jews, and Buddhists who are giving up their whole income to support the poor,” but who are they?

It’s true that they have programs for the poor, but I am aware of a program that was being run by a non-Christian business man. At first I thought he was doing it out of generosity, but he admitted that the reason he was in the program was because for five months of the year he gets free labour for his business - he never actually hires any of the participants in the job-retraining program. By contrast, Mother Teresa always made sure her people were looked after - she never cut anybody loose after they had lost their usefulness to her.

 

[hellopeople]

Name names.

It’s fine to say “Well, there must be Hindus, Jews, and Buddhists who are giving up their whole income to support the poor,” but who are they?

It’s true that they have programs for the poor, but I am aware of a program that was being run by a non-Christian business man. At first I thought he was doing it out of generosity, but he admitted that the reason he was in the program was because for five months of the year he gets free labour for his business - he never actually hires any of the participants in the job-retraining program. By contrast, Mother Teresa always made sure her people were looked after - she never cut anybody loose after they had lost their usefulness to her.

That is arguable to be honest. I have heard many people say that Mother Teresa was not a great person at all. But either way, just because someone wasn’t a figure head and famous does not mean that these people don’t exist. You wouldn’t know who Mother Teresa was either if the media didn’t report about her. Would that take away from everything she did if the media never brought attention to her and you never heard of her?

EDIT: Let me just throw in a mother teresa quote for good measure:

“I love all religions. … If people become better Hindus, better Muslims, better Buddhists by our acts of love, then there is something else growing there.” Or in another place, “All is God — Buddhists, Hindus, Christians, etc., all have access to the same God.”

I feel I made this same exact point earlier in the thread. Who would have thought?

If one were to follow the moral rules of any religion, they would be great people no matter what particular religion they are following.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Name names.

It’s fine to say “Well, there must be Hindus, Jews, and Buddhists who are giving up their whole income to support the poor,” but who are they?

It’s true that they have programs for the poor, but I am aware of a program that was being run by a non-Christian business man. At first I thought he was doing it out of generosity, but he admitted that the reason he was in the program was because for five months of the year he gets free labour for his business - he never actually hires any of the participants in the job-retraining program. By contrast, Mother Teresa always made sure her people were looked after - she never cut anybody loose after they had lost their usefulness to her.

Name names?

Not all religions have formal canonical procedures for documenting their “cream of the crop.”
Not to mention, you put her above the biblical saints, and all humanity before the hebrews. I have tried to find a pope’s commentary that agrees with your assesment of Mother Theresa, yet I can not find it anywhere.

Aside from all this, bringing up a religious who was canonized is still not helping us to understand the effectiveness of the sacraments for all who recieve them. It does possibly show that it only works effectively in very very small percentages of the billions over time that have relied on them.

My viewpoint on the relationship with the “proper and right” sacraments and any signs of it leading to more grace or holiness is still open. But, for now I am left with my original assesment on it until I have more information that it actually does.

 

[jmcrae]

Name names?

Not all religions have formal canonical procedures for documenting their “cream of the crop.”

Maybe it’s because they don’t have any.

Not to mention, you put her above the biblical saints, and all humanity before the hebrews. I have tried to find a pope’s commentary that agrees with your assesment of Mother Theresa, yet I can not find it anywhere.

Not really, no. I could have picked Little Therese, but not as many people have heard of her, or Padre Pio, but again, he’s not well-known among non-Catholics. I just picked a name that I knew everyone would be familiar with.

But, for now I am left with my original assesment on it until I have more information that it actually does.

I’ll try not to confuse you with any more actual examples.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Maybe it’s because they don’t have any.

Not really, no. I could have picked Little Therese, but not as many people have heard of her, or Padre Pio, but again, he’s not well-known among non-Catholics. I just picked a name that I knew everyone would be familiar with.

I’ll try not to confuse you with any more actual examples.

1. If you mean that other religions may not have a formal canonization process, I’ll agree to that with the stipulation that I am unaware of any others that do, and if there are any others I would then have to disagree with you. If you mean no other religion or lack of has produced a person to be regarded in such high light I vehemently disagree.
2. I am aware of both the saints you mention here. Again, you are taking isolated examples of catholic religious canonized- we are back at square one again in using this as any kind of evidence of the sacrament being effacious. We are looking at that now, not trying to find needles in haystacks.
3. Contrary to your belief without evidence for this statement you make, you have not confused me with your statements. You have simply failed to make a valid point.

 

[jmcrae]

1. Contrary to your belief without evidence for this statement you make, you have not confused me with your statements. You have simply failed to make a valid point.

Okay. Your thesis was that, in spite of having access to the Sacraments, no Catholic has ever become a good person. I gave you an example of one such person, and now you say, it’s “not a valid point.”

Who would qualify as “a good person”, in your judgement, then?

And has any other religion produced anyone like Mother Teresa, or Little Thérèse, or Padre Pio, or like anyone else in our calendar of Saints?

 

[StrawberryJam]

Okay. Your thesis was that, in spite of having access to the Sacraments, no Catholic has ever become a good person. I gave you an example of one such person, and now you say, it’s “not a valid point.”

Who would qualify as “a good person”, in your judgement, then?

And has any other religion produced anyone like Mother Teresa, or Little Thérèse, or Padre Pio, or like anyone else in our calendar of Saints?

1. I did not say anything like that. I did not say that no catholic has ever become a good person. You are forgetting the topic yet again- Catholic moral superiority. Not some catholics who had superior morals.
2. I am trying to imagine that you actually believe that these people you mention out of all human existance, and of all the religions that differ from yours have no one that can compare to these people. Okay,Did it.
3. Now let’s try to figure out if any of these canonized religious tie into the whole of the catholic members in terms of morality. Morality which the catholic is allegedly given aid to achieve via the sacraments.

 

[whatischarity]

Check divorce rates, and other categories of christian morality and compare them with the whole. As I said, I have seen slightly lower rates of divorce among catholics compared to non catholics and even non believers, but not a signifigant difference.

You know, the real test could be done just comparing Catholics that frequent the sacraments versus those who don’t. In other words, you wouldn’t be comparing people in other religions. Compare the divorce rates for those who go to communioin twice a week along with confession once a month with those who go to communion twice a year.

(Regarding holy Catholics, that really isn’t fair because there are also evil Catholics. These would be outliers on the opposite extremes. Of course, if you could demonstrate that the Catholic sinners stayed away from the sacraments while Catholic saints frequented them, there may be some merit to it.)

 

[StrawberryJam]

You know, the real test could be done just comparing Catholics that frequent the sacraments versus those who don’t. In other words, you wouldn’t be comparing people in other religions. Compare the divorce rates for those who go to communioin twice a week along with confession once a month with those who go to communion twice a year.

(Regarding holy Catholics, that really isn’t fair because there are also evil Catholics. These would be outliers on the opposite extremes. Of course, if you could demonstrate that the Catholic sinners stayed away from the sacraments while Catholic saints frequented them, there may be some merit to it.)

That would be a fair way to approach it. We can get a better idea this way, but we will never get the numbers for this. Unfortunately.

We’d still have to check all categories on the catholic moral list, not just marriage though.