Proof on Luther's changes to the bible

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Do some Jews and most Eastern Orthodox Christians accept the “Apocrypha?”
It is my understanding that the Jews do not. They rejected the Deuteros in the second century. However, their decision does not bind the Christian Church since the torch had already passed from the Jews to the Christians once the messiah had been rejected.

The Eastern Orthodox Churches have several additional books that the Catholic Church does not recognize as part of its canon.

Interestingly, the canon of scripture was technically NOT closed at Trent. This is significant because if the Orthodox are re-united with the Catholic Church, it is conceivable that the Catholic Church can either allow the Orthodox to retain this books OR even add them to its canon!

Won’t our Protestant brothers have kittens if that happens? 😛
 
Much much better. The question is whether the allusions posted are indeed allusions or reflect common sayings or perhaps another source. On the the other hand, the quote you provided Randy from the book contains the best argument for a direct quote:
1 Maccabees 2:52
Was not Abraham found faithful when tested, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness?
James 2: 21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not
 
Does anybody have a good non-catholic source to prove that Martin Luther changed the original bible?

Also as a side note, do the Orthodox accept the full Canon or omit the “Apocrypha” like the Protestants do? What about the followers of Judaism?

I want to be equipped to handle this when I am asked by a Protestant about the Canon.

Thanks in advance.
Good luck…

The exact content of the OT was not firm ANYWHERE until the Council of Trent, which was exclusively for The Catholic Church as was after Luther.

Luther INCLUDED every single one of the books later embraced at Trent in his German translation. And Lutheran Bibles continued to do so as long as there were Lutheran tomes (for over 100 years, Lutherans have tended to use Bibles published in general).

Lutheranism officially embraces 39 OT books as the inspired, written words of God. These are the ones not disputed. It has no official position on the unique CC set of DEUTERO books, or the unique set of EO DEUTERO books or the unique set of OO DEUTERO books. For centuries, they were in our biblical tomes and occasionally Bible studies and sermons would be based on them (as Luther himself did), but they were not included in the Sunday lectionary and they were not OFFICIALLY declared to be the inerrant, inspired, inscriptured words of God. Nor where they OFFICIALLY rejected as such. They simply are not OFFICIALLY declared to be Scripture.

We realize that the situation changed for The Catholic Church at Trent, but obviously, that is of no concern for Lutherans. That was a Catholic meeting that was of, for and by Catholics.

As for the statement that Luther “removed” the unique set of CC DEUTERO books because of his disagreement with the Dogma of Purgatory, two things:
  1. There’s no relation at all. Remember that the EO and OO accept the DEUTERO book that the CC uses in this regard, but neither accepts Purgatory EITHER. Luther - like the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Oriental Orthodox Church - disagrees with the unique interpretation that The Catholic Church gives to a verse there.
  2. Since only ONE of the DEUTERO books is referenced by the CC in this regard, that would be moot for the others that Lutherans do not OFFICIALLY embrace and affirm as the inerrant, inspired, inscripturated words of God.
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It is my understanding that the Jews do not. They rejected the Deuteros in the second century. However, their decision does not bind the Christian Church since the torch had already passed from the Jews to the Christians once the messiah had been rejected.

The Eastern Orthodox Churches have several additional books that the Catholic Church does not recognize as part of its canon.

Interestingly, the canon of scripture was technically NOT closed at Trent. This is significant because if the Orthodox are re-united with the Catholic Church, it is conceivable that the Catholic Church can either allow the Orthodox to retain this books OR even add them to its canon!

Won’t our Protestant brothers have kittens if that happens? 😛
What you bring up in this post would make for a great new thread.
 
Do some Jews and most Eastern Orthodox Christians accept the “Apocrypha?”
If by Apocrypha you mean works that we call deuterocanonicals - yes.
If by Apocrypha you mean works outside the Hebrew canon and the deuterocanonicals - maybe some Jews, but you would be talking about a very small subset. Maybe Ethiopian Jews or their descendants/offshoots.
 
Oh really. Where did say that?

DEUTEROCANONICALS REFERENCED IN THE NEW TESTAMENT

Matt. 2:16 - Herod’s decree of slaying innocent children was prophesied in Wis. 11:7 - slaying the holy innocents.
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Thistle,

While the list you posted certainly looks impressive it’s not at all impressive upon investigation. I don’t know where you got your list but it likely was from scripturecatholic.com and is indefinsible.

Let’s see where Matthew sees the prophecy occuring…the apocryphal book of Widom?..or did it come from Jeremiah?
Matthew 2:16 thru 18:
16Then when Herod saw that he had been tricked by (Q)the magi, he became very enraged, and sent and (R)slew all the male children who were in Bethlehem and all its vicinity, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had determined from the magi.
17Then what had been spoken through Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled:
18"(S)A VOICE WAS HEARD IN RAMAH,
WEEPING AND GREAT MOURNING,
RACHEL WEEPING FOR HER CHILDREN;
AND SHE REFUSED TO BE COMFORTED,
BECAUSE THEY WERE NO MORE."
It appears that Matthew, writing under the inspiration ofthe Holy Spirit seems to be conclude the prophecy came from Jeremiah…not the book of Wisdom.

The fact is that there isn’t even one quote from the apocrypha or deutero’s in the NT that would lead anyone to believe that Jesus or the apostles believe them to be inspired.
 
Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller

This development in the history of the Jewish canon is interesting in itself. Beginning as early as 90 A.D. at the so-called “Council of Jamnia”, Jewish leaders began to re-think which books of the Bible should and should not be considered scripture. In the second century, the Jews finally removed the Deuterocanonical books from their canon of scripture, and this was due in large part to the fact that the early Christian Church was using the Deuterocanonicals to support the Christian belief in the resurrection from the dead. The Jewish scriptures were being used to win converts to the Christian faith! Consequently, the Jews ultimately rejected the Deuterocanonical books some two centuries after Christ’s death and resurrection. Martin Luther used their decision to justify his own.

This leads to a couple of obvious questions: “Why would the Holy Spirit guide a group of rabbis on matters related to the Old Testament canon when there was already a Christian Church in existence that was under His infallible guidance as Jesus had promised? And why should Luther accept the revised Hebrew canon instead of the canon of the Septuagint that had been in continuous use in the Church for over fifteen centuries?

Luther picked that truncated canon for the same reason the rabbis did: in order to undermine the teachings of the Catholic Church which did not fit his new theology.
Randy,

The council of Jamnia didn’t even discuss the deutero’s. Go to www.handsonapologetics.com and take a look at the article written by Steve Ray on the council of Jamnia.
 
Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller

Paul’s disciple, Timothy, was a Greek, and the Old Testament that Timothy would have been most familiar with from the time of his youth (cf. 2 Tim 3:14-17) was the Greek Septuagint. Because of his travels outside of Israel, Paul, too, would have been familiar with and would have used the Greek version of the Old Testament writings. Therefore, in this passage of scripture, Paul encouraged Timothy to continue in what he had learned from the Septuagint.

This has important implications for a controversy concerning seven books of the Old Testament now known collectively to Catholics as the “Deuterocanonicals” and to Protestants as the “Apocrypha”. Catholics consider the Deuterocanonicals to be inspired scripture while Protestants reject them. The Greek Septuagint contains these seven books while the Hebrew version of the Old Testament does not.

There is no doubt that the Septuagint was known to and used by Jesus, Paul and Timothy and yet, in the 16th century, Martin Luther removed these seven books from the Bible because they contain passages that support distinctly Catholic doctrines like praying for the dead and purgatory—doctrines which he rejected. Luther justified his action in part upon the fact that the Jews themselves rejected the Deuterocanonicals as part of their canon.

This development in the history of the Jewish canon is interesting in itself. Beginning as early as 90 A.D. at the so-called “Council of Jamnia”, Jewish leaders began to re-think which books of the Bible should and should not be considered scripture. In the second century, the Jews finally removed the Deuterocanonical books from their canon of scripture, and this was due in large part to the fact that the early Christian Church was using the Deuterocanonicals to support the Christian belief in the resurrection from the dead. The Jewish scriptures were being used to win converts to the Christian faith! Consequently, the Jews ultimately rejected the Deuterocanonical books some two centuries after Christ’s death and resurrection. Martin Luther used their decision to justify his own.

This leads to a couple of obvious questions: “Why would the Holy Spirit guide a group of rabbis on matters related to the Old Testament canon when there was already a Christian Church in existence that was under His infallible guidance as Jesus had promised? And why should Luther accept the revised Hebrew canon instead of the canon of the Septuagint that had been in continuous use in the Church for over fifteen centuries?

Luther picked that truncated canon for the same reason the rabbis did: in order to undermine the teachings of the Catholic Church which did not fit his new theology.
Randy,

I don’t understand your posts. In one post you seem to think Jamnia threw out the deutero’s and in another you discredit that notion and post information which says the dc’s weren’t discussed. What gives?
 
It is my understanding that the Jews do not. They rejected the Deuteros in the second century. However, their decision does not bind the Christian Church since the torch had already passed from the Jews to the Christians once the messiah had been rejected.

The Eastern Orthodox Churches have several additional books that the Catholic Church does not recognize as part of its canon.

Interestingly, the canon of scripture was technically NOT closed at Trent. This is significant because if the Orthodox are re-united with the Catholic Church, it is conceivable that the Catholic Church can either allow the Orthodox to retain this books OR even add them to its canon!

Won’t our Protestant brothers have kittens if that happens? 😛
So much for your supposed certainty concerning the canon, huh?
 
Good luck…

The exact content of the OT was not firm ANYWHERE until the Council of Trent, which was exclusively for The Catholic Church as was after Luther.

Luther INCLUDED every single one of the books later embraced at Trent in his German translation. And Lutheran Bibles continued to do so as long as there were Lutheran tomes (for over 100 years, Lutherans have tended to use Bibles published in general).

Lutheranism officially embraces 39 OT books as the inspired, written words of God. These are the ones not disputed. It has no official position on the unique CC set of DEUTERO books, or the unique set of EO DEUTERO books or the unique set of OO DEUTERO books. For centuries, they were in our biblical tomes and occasionally Bible studies and sermons would be based on them (as Luther himself did), but they were not included in the Sunday lectionary and they were not OFFICIALLY declared to be the inerrant, inspired, inscriptured words of God. Nor where they OFFICIALLY rejected as such. They simply are not OFFICIALLY declared to be Scripture.

We realize that the situation changed for The Catholic Church at Trent, but obviously, that is of no concern for Lutherans. That was a Catholic meeting that was of, for and by Catholics.

As for the statement that Luther “removed” the unique set of CC DEUTERO books because of his disagreement with the Dogma of Purgatory, two things:
  1. There’s no relation at all. Remember that the EO and OO accept the DEUTERO book that the CC uses in this regard, but neither accepts Purgatory EITHER. Luther - like the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Oriental Orthodox Church - disagrees with the unique interpretation that The Catholic Church gives to a verse there.
  2. Since only ONE of the DEUTERO books is referenced by the CC in this regard, that would be moot for the others that Lutherans do not OFFICIALLY embrace and affirm as the inerrant, inspired, inscripturated words of God.
    .
The fact is Protestant bibles are smaller than Catholic bibles. Catholics will find that Luther does not have the gift of infallibility to determine the Canonical books. As a result without discussing outside topics, Luther changed the bible.
 
Thistle,

While the list you posted certainly looks impressive it’s not at all impressive upon investigation. I don’t know where you got your list but it likely was from scripturecatholic.com and is indefinsible.

Let’s see where Matthew sees the prophecy occuring…the apocryphal book of Widom?..or did it come from Jeremiah?

It appears that Matthew, writing under the inspiration ofthe Holy Spirit seems to be conclude the prophecy came from Jeremiah…not the book of Wisdom.

The fact is that there isn’t even one quote from the apocrypha or deutero’s in the NT that would lead anyone to believe that Jesus or the apostles believe them to be inspired.
Several problems with this:
  1. As Randy correctly noted above, most OT references in the NT are not direct citiations, but rather oblique or indirect references. So the fact that a work (such as 2 Maccabees) is not cited is inconclusive since it is referred to.
  2. On at least one occasion St. Paul explicitly quotes a heathen author (Acts 17:28). So if you are going to argue that citation implies canonicity or inspiration whereas indirect refeence doesn’t - no dice.
  3. There are six NT ‘citations’ with no source (OT or otherwise):
i.******** Jn 7.38: and let the one who believes in me drink. As the scripture has said, “Out of the believer’s heart shall flow rivers of living water.”
*
ii.******** 1Cor 9.10: Or does he not speak entirely for our sake? It was indeed written for our sake, for whoever plows should plow in hope and whoever threshes should thresh in hope of a share in the crop.
*
iii.******** 2Cor 4.6: For it is the God who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
*
iv.******** Eph 5.14: for everything that becomes visible is light. Therefore it says, “Sleeper, awake! Rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.”
*
v.******** 1Tim 5.18: for the scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain,” and, “The laborer deserves to be paid.”
*
vi.******** Jas 4.5: Or do you suppose that it is for nothing that the scripture says, “God yearns jealously for the spirit that he has made to dwell in us”?
*
So the idea that only the Jewish canon is cited as Scripture is patently false.
  1. There are also works referred to in the NT that are in no one’s canon. See my earlier post (#14) in this thread and click on the link. *
 
Several problems with this:
No, there are no problems with what I posted but you do seem to be reading something in my post that isn’t there.
  1. As Randy correctly noted above, most OT references in the NT are not direct citiations, but rather oblique or indirect references. So the fact that a work (such as 2 Maccabees) is not cited is inconclusive since it is referred to.
Yes you are correct but there is nothing in the context of my post that indicates that I believe a book must be quoted in the NT to be a part of the OT canon.
  1. On at least one occasion St. Paul explicitly quotes a heathen author (Acts 17:28). So if you are going to argue that citation implies canonicity or inspiration whereas indirect refeence doesn’t - no dice.
You really need to go back and read my post in context since I never suggested that a book would be or should be considered scriptural because of it was quoted in the canonical scriptures.
  1. There are six NT ‘citations’ with no source (OT or otherwise):
i.******** Jn 7.38: and let the one who believes in me drink. As the scripture has said, “Out of the believer’s heart shall flow rivers of living water.”
*
ii.******** 1Cor 9.10: Or does he not speak entirely for our sake? It was indeed written for our sake, for whoever plows should plow in hope and whoever threshes should thresh in hope of a share in the crop.
*
iii.******** 2Cor 4.6: For it is the God who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
*
iv.******** Eph 5.14: for everything that becomes visible is light. Therefore it says, “Sleeper, awake! Rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.”
*
v.******** 1Tim 5.18: for the scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain,” and, “The laborer deserves to be paid.”
*
vi.******** Jas 4.5: Or do you suppose that it is for nothing that the scripture says, “God yearns jealously for the spirit that he has made to dwell in us”?
*
So what? Depending on where you want to go with this it is as problematic for you as it is for me.
So the idea that only the Jewish canon is cited as Scripture is patently false.
I am guessing this bold statement is based on the 6 citations you provided. Am I right?

Regardless the fact remains that the dc’s are never, ever quoted in such a way that would lead anyone to believe that the apostles or Jesus thought they were inspired. I don’t see why that should bother a Catholic though since everyone is aware that Trent did in fact rule dogmatically on the isssue.
  1. There are also works referred to in the NT that are in no one’s canon. See my earlier post (#14) in this thread and click on the link. *
I appreciate your post but again, so what? You are apparently arguing with something you perceive me to be saying and not what I actually said.
 
It is my understanding that the Jews do not. They rejected the Deuteros in the second century. However, their decision does not bind the Christian Church since the torch had already passed from the Jews to the Christians once the messiah had been rejected.

The Eastern Orthodox Churches have several additional books that the Catholic Church does not recognize as part of its canon.

Interestingly, the canon of scripture was technically NOT closed at Trent. This is significant because if the Orthodox are re-united with the Catholic Church, it is conceivable that the Catholic Church can either allow the Orthodox to retain this books OR even add them to its canon!

Won’t our Protestant brothers have kittens if that happens? 😛
This issue was so interesting that I started a new thread. Please see
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=5967335#post5967335 and I thank you and everyone else for their contribution to this thread.
 
The fact is Protestant bibles are smaller than Catholic bibles. Catholics will find that Luther does not have the gift of infallibility to determine the Canonical books. As a result without discussing outside topics, Luther changed the bible.
So, Luther is the one that caused everything in contemporary Protestantism, according to The Catholic Church?

Luther never claimed infalliblity/unaccountability. Luther never determined anything about the canon of books.

Here’s what I posted earlier:
The exact content of the OT was not firm ANYWHERE until the Council of Trent, which was exclusively for The Catholic Church as was after Luther.
Luther INCLUDED every single one of the books later embraced at Trent in his German translation. And Lutheran Bibles continued to do so as long as there were Lutheran tomes (for over 100 years, Lutherans have tended to use Bibles published in general).
Lutheranism officially embraces 39 OT books as the inspired, written words of God. These are the ones not disputed. It has no official position on the unique CC set of DEUTERO books, or the unique set of EO DEUTERO books or the unique set of OO DEUTERO books. For centuries, they were in our biblical tomes and occasionally Bible studies and sermons would be based on them (as Luther himself did), but they were not included in the Sunday lectionary and they were not OFFICIALLY declared to be the inerrant, inspired, inscriptured words of God. Nor where they OFFICIALLY rejected as such. They simply are not OFFICIALLY declared to be Scripture.
We realize that the situation changed for The Catholic Church at Trent, but obviously, that is of no concern for Lutherans. That was a Catholic meeting that was of, for and by Catholics.
As for the statement that Luther “removed” the unique set of CC DEUTERO books because of his disagreement with the Dogma of Purgatory, two things:
  1. There’s no relation at all. Remember that the EO and OO accept the DEUTERO book that the CC uses in this regard, but neither accepts Purgatory EITHER. Luther - like the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Oriental Orthodox Church - disagrees with the unique interpretation that The Catholic Church gives to a verse there.
  1. Since only ONE of the DEUTERO books is referenced by the CC in this regard, that would be moot for the others that Lutherans do not OFFICIALLY embrace and affirm as the inerrant, inspired, inscripturated words of God.
.
 
You really need to go back and read my post in context since I never suggested that a book would be or should be considered scriptural because of it was quoted in the canonical scriptures.
After reading this, I definitely did go back and read what you wrote. You said:
Regardless the fact remains that the dc’s are never, ever quoted in such a way that would lead anyone to believe that the apostles or Jesus thought they were inspired.
In making this statement you have to assume that citation has some bearing on inspiration. Otherwise, why bother making a connection between “never quoted” and “thought they were inspired”?
It would be like if I said, “My daughter never sent me an email stating she wanted a birthday present.”. Then she would say to me, “Wait a second! Never on any of my previous birthday did I have to email you to get a present.”. Then I say to her, “Wait a second! Who said there was a connection between emails and presents? You’re putting words in my mouth.”
 
So, Luther is the one that caused everything in contemporary Protestantism, according to The Catholic Church?

Luther never claimed infalliblity/unaccountability. Luther never determined anything about the canon of books.

Here’s what I posted earlier:
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Even though I am going way off the topic of the thread, I do not believe Catholics believe Luther was the sole partaker in starting contemporary Protestantism. I would believe that to be Satan and his demons breaking up the unity of Christ’s Church who had a larger role.

I find your interpretation on infallibility and unaccountability to be quite difficult to understand. My whole opinion is why read something that you do not know to be inspired.

I find there to be significant evidence that Luther did determine the value of canonical texts, hence, why the Lutheran Bible (I hope I’m right :D) is smaller than the Catholic bible. I have also heard that Protestants hate the Letter of Saint James. I have also heard that Luther would have deleted this Book of the New Testament if conservative reformists did not reject.

Also, the topic of why none of the New Testament Books were edited is interesting to realize. This reality acknowledges that Luther accepted that the Catholic Church’s interpretation of what should be in the New Testament as infallible proof, because the Catholic Church was the only Church that decided what the bible would contain. There were no other Churches operating during the period before the bible was compiled. Early Christians followed bishops who followed the Pope (I am not including various heretical groups) which was the Catholic Church. As a result, the Catholic Church accepted the New Testament as infallible and Luther questioned whether the books prior to the New Testament were canonical. If the Church that compiled the New Testament was correct, then I do not see the impossibility of the same Church to be wrong on the texts of the Old Testament (Hebrew Scriptures). I do ask you why you do not consider the Didache, the Protoevangelum of James and others to be inspired. My only conclusion is that Martin Luther concluded that the Catholic Church was working through her gift of infallibility to translate the Holy Bible.

I do not mean to be rude or insulting. I hope you understand this.
 
I find there to be significant evidence that Luther did determine the value of canonical texts, hence, why the Lutheran Bible (I hope I’m right :D) is smaller than the Catholic bible.
Luther did not determine anything in this regard. Lutherans embrace the 39 OT books that are non-controversal. We don’t reject the unique CC set of DEUTERO books - we just don’t officially embrace them - we leave them were they were before Trent. Luther included them in his German translation. He lectured on them. He quotes considerably from them - he just never “determined” them to be inerrant, inscripturated words of God. He also never “determined” they were not. Today, you’ll find Lutheran denominations officially embracing the same 39 books and saying nothing aboaut those DEUTERO books, at least not officially.

Yes, the commonly embraced list of books in the OO Bible is “larger” than that of the EO. And the EO’s list of books is larger than the CC’s list. As far as I know, only one of those actually pinned this all down and that was the CC and that was after Luther’s death (and we’ll see how “pinned down” that is if the EO and CC talks ever get around to that topic).

As I’ve stated a couple of times now, when Lutherans were publishing Lutheran tomes, we included the same DEUTERO books that the CC embraces (but not the ones of the OO or the ones of the EO). Our tome was the same “size” as the post Trent Catholic ones. Lutherans did not include readings from such in our lectionaries (we still don’t) but like Luther, we occasionally did studies of them and use them in sermons. But frankly, we found them of lesser value. By the time Lutherans in America began to use the KJV rather than Luther’s German, the unique Catholic set of Trent embraced books had largely been dropped from KJV tomes - and no one cared much since they were simply rarely used.

In my Catholic years, I read them. I can’t say I recall any sermons that used anything from them as the text (maybe there was some cases of that, I just don’t recall). And in my 5 years of studying Catholicism, none of my Catholic teachers ever referenced anything there except in regards to the unique Catholic doctrine of purgatory, but I rather agree with the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox that both accept that Deutero book but not that doctrine. Other than that, they just seemed to “be there” and that’s it. Frankly, having read them, I don’t think a single Protestant would care if they were included or not.

But I think it incorrect to say Luther “determined” anything in this regard. He included the unique Trent set of the Deutero books in his translation - as Lutherans continued to do as long as we used his translation (or translations of it). Lutherans have never officially said anything about them. We embrace the 39 that were above the fray, and left it there. We realize that for the CC, Trent changed that situation but that is, obviously, of no concern beyond The Catholic Church. It was a meeting of only it for only it - and after Luther was excommunicated.
I have also heard that Protestants hate the Letter of Saint James. I have also heard that Luther would have deleted this Book of the New Testament if conservative reformists did not reject.
  1. What Luther thought is actually of no concern to Lutherans; he was and is not an authority in Lutheranism.
  2. In 1522, very early in his life and a year after his excommunication, Luther made a strange statement in that regard, calling James “an epistle of straw.” For some reason, Catholics have loved it and have circulated it constantly ever since even to this day. In context, it takes on an entirely different perspective but of course, snippets is what we all seem to enjoy - whether positively (as in some snippet from an ECF or negatively as in some snippet from some “heretic”). Luther’s “straw” comment had nothing to do with it being untrue or uncanonical but rather that he saw it as largely undoctrinal and focused on “ordinary, obvious” things. Of course, I disagree. Early on, Luther did personally wonder how James 2 “fits” with the rest of the NT. He soon reconciled this and fully embraced the book.
But whatever thought he may have had on this topic at some point in his life, James was NEVER remotely regarded by Lutheranism as anything less than fully canonical and the inerrant, inspired, inscripturated words of God. Luther lectured on it - holding it in very high esteem. He quoted from it often, particularly in reference to faith (it plays a dominate role in his understanding of sola fide). The Book of James is one of the few books that is actually specifically noted in The Lutheran Confessions as “the authoritative teaching from God.”

I should add, just as a PS, that Luther also early on noted that James was one of the most controversal of the books eventually to make it into our NT canon (the Revelation of St. John being the other). Another part of Luther’s “Problem” is that in his day, it was believed that Scriptures are such because they were written by Apostles or someone very close to them. Luther’s own personal (entirely nonauthoritative opinion) was that the author of James as neither of the Apostles by that name, and thus wondered about that. Later in his life, he determined such was of no consequence. Again, Luther includes it in his translation, lectured on it several times, and eventually says esteeming things of it.

Ah, but that little snippet will likely be quoted - and then MUCH made of it - until Jesus returns. It’s just the way things go.

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Continues in next post…
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fish90:
Also, the topic of why none of the New Testament Books were edited is interesting to realize. This reality acknowledges that Luther accepted that the Catholic Church’s interpretation of what should be in the New Testament as infallible proof, because the Catholic Church was the only Church that decided what the bible would contain.
I respectfully disagree. The topic simply wasn’t one of the issues of the Reformation. Luther did not regard himself as “determining” the issue - or any other. Again, Luther early on DOES seem to express some interest in James and Revelation since they were late to be embraced, amide some controversy - but he later just seems to move on.

I personally don’t see that The Catholic Church had anything to do with the embrace of the books CHRISTIANS AS A WHOLE embrace as Scripture. It DOES with the unique set of books that Trent affirmed, unique to The Catholic Church, but that’s of no concern or interest outside The Catholic Church. But perhaps we need to stick with James.
There were no other Churches operating during the period before the bible was compiled.
Scripture was “compiled” from 1400 BC to the early 4th century (actually, most of the NT was largely in place by the end of the second century). You’ll disagree with this, obviously, but it is my position that The Catholic Church didn’t exist until the 4th Century (or at least there’s no evidence of it - or any other denomination - until then). As I read the history, the collection of books now regarded as the NT was a very informal, slow, “grass-roots” process largely unknown to us. By the time ANY institution (call it a protodenomination or whatever) did ANYTING in this regard, in 393 AD, the issue was largely settled - and that meeting contributed nothing to it. I see no evidence that The Catholic Church (or any other denomination) had anything to do with it. Even IF we regard The Council of Hippo as a distinctively Catholic meeting (big “C” lol), then it’s an “after the fact” embrace, not a selection or formation. But we’re getting way off topic.
As a result, the Catholic Church accepted the New Testament as infallible and Luther questioned whether the books prior to the New Testament were canonical.
Lost me…

Yes, at Trent in the 16th century, The Catholic Church officially embraces its canon of Scripture books. Earlier, it at least reveals some embrace. It’s true for all other denominations, too. Some have officially done this in some formal way - as the CC did at Trent, some have simply accepted such informally, by historical consensus largely unquestioned. But to embrace a reality is not to cause the reality. I can state now, at 3:25 on Saturday afternoon, that the sun came up this morning - that has no relevance to whether I caused it or had a thing to do with it, I’m simply embracing it as true. The reality is: of all the denominations, our agreement on the 27 NT books (and 39 OT ones) is - amazingly - one of the strongest points of consensus in our Christian faith.

Again, Luther’s BRIEF interest in the point that James and Revelation were “problematic” for some time and were perhaps the last books to be embraced, was just that - a personal, temporary interest.
If the Church that compiled the New Testament was correct
Your premise is respected - but rejected. The church that embraced the NT was, from my perspective, the one holy catholic church - not The Catholic Church. It was people, not your institution (with all due respect). But even if your premise was true, the conclusion doesn’t hold. Some one (or some thing) can be right at ONE point - without it having to be correct at ALL points. You agree with The Orthodox Church on many, many deep and meaningful issues. You disagree on some (including the OT canon!). You can both agree AND disagree. So can we.

I hope that helps you see a different perspective.

Pax
  • Josiah
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The points you bring up are rather interesting.

Do you have any sources that Luther did keep the Deutercanonical Books?

Do you understand that the “BRIEF problem” you describe about Luther’s opinion about James is rather troubling to me considering James 2:20 “Faith without works is useless” would be contradictory to Luther’s theology?

Can you explain why Luther added the words “alone” to several bible passages or is this a falsehood?

I believe you will find answers to questions about infalliblility, Doctine Development, the Early Church and other beliefs of the Church on this website and other websites.

Thanks for your contribution and I hope you continue posting.😃

I can also use some backup from faithful Catholics.😃
 
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