A
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
P
PRmerger
Guest
Right.nope:
God is the ultimate author:
God is incapable of error:
But how does this work with the Holy Spirit guiding the Church but not giving her the charism of infallibility?
A
alwayswill
Guest
mysteriously:Right.
But how does this work with the Holy Spirit guiding the Church but not giving her the charism of infallibility?
infallibility is a divine only attribute that flows out of being omniscience:
You can’t be incapable of being in error unless you know everything:
You can be 100 % correct ( which is being inerrant) but that is different than being incapable of being in error (which is being infallible)
S
spina1953
Guest
Its not about whether or not the Holy Spirit guiding the and enlightening the Church is about the individual who interprets Scripture according to one’s own particular understanding thereby becoming one’s own authority. This born out by the fact from some of your posts that if you decided a church you belong to alwayswill does not conform to what you yourself understand from Scriptures you find a different church to go to that does conform to your own particular understanding of what you think Scripture says and means. That is what sola scripture is. Scripture does not say itself is an authority or that it is the final word and that Scripture is all one needs to know in order to be saved. It was Luther and others of the Protestant reformation that decided that since they would no longer accept the authority of the Catholic Church another authority was needed so the Bible became that authority but its a vailed one since the real authority is the individual and not the church or Scripture itself. While there are things in Scripture easy to understand there is also that which is difficult to understand without the aid of the Catholic Church which is that Church that decided as to which is Scripture and which is not scripture so has the means to say what Scripture says and means.once again:
"Thirdly, it is not a denial that God’s Word has been spoken. "
And, finally, sola scriptura is not a denial of the role of the Holy Spirit in guiding and enlightening the Church
It is like the Constitution of the USA if it were a sola constitution whereby each and everyone who read it can come to their own individual understanding of what it means and say we would not need a Supreme Court to decide what it says and means, the individual could so that. And the result would be chaos since the individual would interpret it according to their own understanding which means by their own authority and not that of the Supreme Court. That is to say well the Constitution is the final authority not the Supreme Court.
A
alwayswill
Guest
apologetic hint #2So while the Scriptures were being written by fallible people, error could be part of the Scriptures. If they were not infallible while writing, how do we know they got the God-breathed Scriptures correct?
God-breathed them, but they were still dictated by fallible people, so in your paradigm, the Scriptures could contain error.
You will never convince a Solo Scriptural adherent that they are wrong by diminishing Scripture in any way. that includes Scripture’s inerrancy, infallibility, or authority
P
PRmerger
Guest
Ah. That’s what I thought. You, like oh-so-many folks, reject what is NOT a Catholic teaching.mysteriously:
infallibility is a divine only attribute that flows out of being omniscience:
Infallibility has NOTHING to do with omniscience.
All it is is what you have professed to be given to the Church: guidance by the Holy Spirit to profess what God wants.
It sounds like you can agree to that being something given to the Church.
So that’s one step closer to coming in to the fullness of the Banquet of the Lord! :extrahappy:
A
alwayswill
Guest
great pointIt is like the Constitution of the USA if it were a sola constitution whereby each and everyone who read it can come to their own individual understanding of what it means and say we would not need a Supreme Court to decide what it says and means, the individual could so that. And the result would be chaos since the individual would interpret it according to their own understanding which means by their own authority and not that of the Supreme Court. That is to say well the Constitution is the final authority not the Supreme Court.
Does the Constitution of the USA grant authority to the the Supreme Court
or
does the the Supreme Court grant authority to the Constitution?
I say the former is true
Isn’t the granter of authority greater than the receiver?
John 19:
When Pilate heard this statement, he was even more afraid. 9 He entered his headquarters again and said to Jesus, “Where are you from?” But Jesus gave him no answer.
10 So Pilate said to him, “You will not speak to me? Do you not know that I have authority to release you and authority to crucify you?”
11 Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above. Therefore he who delivered me over to you has the greater sin.”
Who is the greatest authority in the room?Isn’t the granter of authority greater than the receiver?
D
Duane1966
Guest
Actually, I have before.apologetic hint #2
You will never convince a Solo Scriptural adherent that they are wrong by diminishing Scripture in any way. that includes Scripture’s inerrancy, infallibility, or authority
D
Duane1966
Guest
And that’s what the charism of infallibility states, that the Holy Spirit is the ultimate guide. So if the Holy Spirit can guide the authors of Scripture, the Spirit can do the same for the Church. And that is exactly what Jesus says.nope:
God is the ultimate author:
God is incapable of error:
A
alwayswill
Guest
but Catholic agree that, faithful , knowledge and Church loving Catholics do disagree with other faithful, knowledge and Church loving Catholics about the meaning and interpretations of Catholic Church teachings.Its not about whether or not the Holy Spirit guiding the and enlightening the Church is about the individual who interprets Scripture according to one’s own particular understanding thereby becoming one’s own authority. This born out by the fact from some of your posts that if you decided a church you belong to alwayswill does not conform to what you yourself understand from Scriptures you find a different church to go to that does conform to your own particular understanding of what you think Scripture says and means. That is what sola scripture is. Scripture does not say itself is an authority or that it is the final word and that Scripture is all one needs to know in order to be saved. It was Luther and others of the Protestant reformation that decided that since they would no longer accept the authority of the Catholic Church another authority was needed so the Bible became that authority but its a vailed one since the real authority is the individual and not the church or Scripture itself. While there are things in Scripture easy to understand there is also that which is difficult to understand without the aid of the Catholic Church which is that Church that decided as to which is Scripture and which is not scripture so has the means to say what Scripture says and means.
…
.
(CAF is filled with those discussions)
and if the the issue is important enough,
then faithful , knowledge, Church loving Catholics will travel to another parish that agrees with their own interpretations of Catholic Church teachings.
and Catholics agree : misunderstanding the the teachings of the Catholic Church does not diminish her authority
P
PRmerger
Guest
But that is not permitted, alwayswill.but Catholic agree that, faithful , knowledge and Church loving Catholics do disagree with other faithful, knowledge and Church loving Catholics about the meaning and interpretations of Catholic Church teachings.
(CAF is filled with those discussions)
and if the the issue is important enough,
then faithful , knowledge, Church loving Catholics will travel to another parish that agrees with their own interpretations of Catholic Church teachings.
But that IS permitted in the Protestant paradigm. Or, it has to be if it’s going not going to be hypocritical.
A
alwayswill
Guest
so sad: that you convinced someone that writings breathed out by God are somehow less than God speaking from His Throne:Actually, I have before.
try to convince me of that
P
PRmerger
Guest
I don’t think that’s what he said.so sad: that you convinced someone that writings breathed out by God are somehow less than God speaking from His Throne:
try to convince me of that
A
alwayswill
Guest
whats not permitted?But that is not permitted, alwayswill.
But that IS permitted in the Protestant paradigm. Or, it has to be if it’s going not going to be hypocritical.
going to another Parish because you disagree with female Eucaristic Ministers; Ad Orientem worship , or you are just weary of watching those who everyone knows are in unrepentant mortal sin partake of the Eucharist?
D
Duane1966
Guest
I did not convince him of that, I just convinced him that God did not intend the Scriptures to some how be a higher authority than God speaking through His Church. Which God clearly said here:so sad: that you convinced someone that writings breathed out by God are somehow less than God speaking from His Throne:
try to convince me of that
So sad that you reject Jesus when He speaks through His Church.He who hears you hears me. He who rejects you, rejects me.
A
alwayswill
Guest
where is this reasoning wrong?I did not convince him of that, I just convinced him that God did not intend the Scriptures to some how be a higher authority than God speaking through His Church. Which God clearly said here: So sad that you reject Jesus when He speaks through His Church.
The highest authority possible is God speaking from His throne
Writings breathed out by God have the same authority as God speaking from His throne.
Therefore there is no authority higher than Writings breathed out by God
God speaking from his Throne is a greater authority than the Catholic Church
therefore
Writings breathed out by God are a greater authority than the Catholic Church
D
Duane1966
Guest
Here is where it is wrong:where is this reasoning wrong?
The highest authority possible is God speaking from His throne
Writings breathed out by God have the same authority as God speaking from His throne.
Therefore there is no authority higher than Writings breathed out by God
God speaking from his Throne is a greater authority than the Catholic Church
therefore
Writings breathed out by God are a greater authority than the Catholic Church
When the Catholic Church speaks, it is God speaking authoritatively, from His throne. He who hears you, hears me…God speaking from his Throne is a greater authority than the Catholic Church
He flat out says when the Church speaks, it is Him speaking. Why do you try to diminish Jesus’ words?
So since the writings, and the Church speaking authoritatively, are both God speaking authoritatively, through different media, one cannot be greater than the other.
A
alwayswill
Guest
God’s authority is ALWAYS infallible authority.Here is where it is wrong:When the Catholic Church speaks, it is God speaking authoritatively, from His throne. He who hears you, hears me…
He flat out says when the Church speaks, it is Him speaking. Why do you try to diminish Jesus’ words?
So since the writings, and the Church speaking authoritatively, are both God speaking authoritatively, through different media, one cannot be greater than the other.
(agreed?)
All writings breathed out by God are infallible
(agreed?)
Is the Catholic Church’s authority ALWAYS infallible?
Is everything the Catholic Church proclaims infallible?
P
PRmerger
Guest
alwayswill, it would be nice if you acknowledged that you do indeed believe that the Church has been guided by the Holy Spirit and thus protected from teaching error, at least as it applies to the canon of the NT.Ah. That’s what I thought. You, like oh-so-many folks, reject what is NOT a Catholic teaching.
Infallibility has NOTHING to do with omniscience.
All it is is what you have professed to be given to the Church: guidance by the Holy Spirit to profess what God wants.
It sounds like you can agree to that being something given to the Church.
So that’s one step closer to coming in to the fullness of the Banquet of the Lord! :extrahappy:
Yes?
We are agreed here?
P
PRmerger
Guest
No. Not at all. That’s definitely not one of the teachings of the CC.Is the Catholic Church’s authority ALWAYS infallible?
Is everything the Catholic Church proclaims infallible?
- Status
- Not open for further replies.