Proof that Christ's Church was not Sola Scriptura

[PRmerger]

and I would say this:

The Ten Commandments have the same authority as God Himself speaking from His Throne…

There can be no higher authority than God Himself speaking from his Throne… and the Ten Commandments have that exact same authority

Except…you need to trust the entity which gave you these Ten Commandments.

Unless you witnessed, personally, these tablets floating down from heaven on the wings of a dove, you have to give your submission to the entity which tells you: these commandments come from God.

Just like, unless you witness personally the Bible floating down from heaven, you have to give your submission to the entity which discerned which of the over 400 ancient Christian texts belong in the Bible, and which ones do not.

That makes you NOT Sola Scriptura.

 

[alwayswill]

…
Incidentally, when you speak of “known God breathed writings”, who is it that “knew” that these writings were theopneustos?

How did they “know” this?

to a Sola Scriptura practicing Christian

Sola Scriptura is true BECAUSE of what Scripture is
(its attributes and characteristics)

NOT because of what is Scripture
(a list)

 

[PRmerger]

Sola Scriptura is true BECAUSE of what Scripture is
(its attributes and characteristics)

NOT because of what is Scripture
(a list)

Of course.

But you didn’t answer the question: how was it “known” that something was Scripture?

 

[PRmerger]

when did the Bible come into existence?

when did the Scriptures come into existence?

That is why they are not the same.

Ah. I get what you’re saying.

It’s a distinction that has no difference, however.

How could someone recognize Scripture before she was told that it actually *was *Scripture?

 

[alwayswill]

Except…you need to trust the entity which gave you these Ten Commandments.

Unless you witnessed, personally, these tablets floating down from heaven on the wings of a dove, you have to give your submission to the entity which tells you: these commandments come from God.

Just like, unless you witness personally the Bible floating down from heaven, you have to give your submission to the entity which discerned which of the over 400 ancient Christian texts belong in the Bible, and which ones do not.

That makes you NOT Sola Scriptura.

nope: disbelief does diminish authority:

If every single person was an atheist: God will still be the highest authority.
God’s authority is NOT diminished by unbelief, doubt, or misunderstanding.

 

[PRmerger]

How do Catholics answer these questions?

Do you agree with these statements?

All Scripture is God breathed (pasa graphe theopneustos) -

Yes. We say AMEN! to this.

However, you still have the problem of knowing whether something is Scripture or not.

For that, you need to defer to the authority of the Church.

Every line of Scripture is infallible and inerrant (Incapable of error. Contains no errors) -

Indeed.

Which would mean, of course, that the inspired writers were infallible, yes?

Which means you believe that men can be infallible, right?

It is The Truth ( not a truth, not merely correct) -

True.

Anything statement that disagrees with Scripture, by definition must be an error -

Yes.

It is impossible for Scripture to disagree with God. -

Correct.

It is impossible for God to disagree with Scripture. -

Right.

God speaking from His Throne; Jesus preaching from the Mount, and ALL God breathed writings carry the same EQUAL authority -

Not sure about this one…I would think that Jesus preaching from the Mount has more authority than St. Peter writing an encyclical.

 

[PRmerger]

nope: disbelief does diminish authority:

If every single person was an atheist: God will still be the highest authority.
God’s authority is NOT diminished by unbelief, doubt, or misunderstanding.

Not sure how this ^^ follows from my statement?

I didn’t mention disbelief, at all.

Point remains: you need to submit to an authority to know what is God’s Word and what is not.

 

[alwayswill]

Ah. I get what you’re saying.

It’s a distinction that has no difference, however.

How could someone recognize Scripture before she was told that it actually *was *Scripture?

irrelevant to the the authority of Scripture.

whether the Ten Commandments are the only writings from God or whether the Chronicles of Adam and 3 Corinthians are breathed out from God;
Scriptures have the same authority as God speaking from His Throne.

SS practicing Christians start with the characteristics of Scripture, not with a lists of Scriptures

Explained further:

I proclaim as truth that there is no authority higher than God speaking from His Throne.
That’s where I start.
Would you agree that is a truth for you also?

The list of things God has said from His throne does not change that truth

 

[alwayswill]

Not sure how this ^^ follows from my statement?

I didn’t mention disbelief, at all.

Point remains: you need to submit to an authority to know what is God’s Word and what is not.

you said
“Except…**.you need to trust **the entity which gave you these Ten Commandments.”

 

[PRmerger]

o Catholics believe that it is a requirement for God to state that He is the highest authority for it to be true? -

Not at all

Do Catholics believe that it is a requirement for God breathed writtings to state they are the highest authority for it to be true? -

Not at all.

However–and this is a big HOWEVER–you don’t know what these God breathed writings are…except through deferring to the authority of the CC.

Are there any other God breathed writings (graphe theopneustos) not included in the Bible*?

No. There are not.

I ask you this question as well. Are there any God breathed writings not included in the Bible?

And what is the source for your answer?

 

[PRmerger]

Are there any other writings that can claim every line is infallible and inerrant ? -

No

Are there any other writings that it is impossible for God to disagree with? -

Sure.

I write this, and it’s impossible for God to disagree with it:

God is One Being in Three Persons

Are there any other writings that carry the EXACT same authority as God speaking from His Throne or Jesus preaching from the Mount? -

No.

 

[alwayswill]

…

Not sure about this one…I would think that Jesus preaching from the Mount has more authority than St. Peter writing an encyclical.

well lets work through that.

If Peter writing an encyclical that was breathed out by God , defalcated something to be true: could ever say my God breathed writing contained an untruth?

No: God is bound by His own word.

 

[PRmerger]

SS practicing Christians start with the characteristics of Scripture, not with a lists of Scriptures

Now, this is very, very interesting to me.

What are the characteristics of Scripture?

And where do you get this list of characteristics from?

 

[PRmerger]

you said
“Except…**.you need to trust **the entity which gave you these Ten Commandments.”

Right.

You do trust the authority of the CC, each and every time you quote from the NT.

Except you simply don’t acknowledge this.

That’s what I’m trying to lead you here to understand.

 

[alwayswill]

I ask you this question as well. Are there any God breathed writings not included in the Bible?

irrelevant to the authority of Scripture.

Start with what Scripture is; not what is Scripture

 

[PRmerger]

well lets work through that.

If Peter writing an encyclical that was breathed out by God , defalcated something to be true: could ever say my God breathed writing contained an untruth?

No: God is bound by His own word.

Do you think that Jesus’ preaching had more authority than when St. Peter preached?

I do.

 

[PRmerger]

irrelevant to the authority of Scripture.

Start with what Scripture is; not what is Scripture

Can you please answer my question?

I answered it for you, when you posed it to me.

I’m just asking you the very same question.

 

[alwayswill]

Now, this is very, very interesting to me.

What are the characteristics of Scripture?

And where do you get this list of characteristics from?

the characteristics of Scripture or identical to the characteristics of God words from His throne

 

[alwayswill]

Can you please answer my question?

I answered it for you, when you posed it to me.

I’m just asking you the very same question.

Are there any God breathed writings not included in the Bible?

not that we know of.

Maybe the Chronicles of Adam or 3 Corinthians were God breathed: but we don’t have access to them

 

[alwayswill]

Do you think that Jesus’ preaching had more authority than when St. Peter preached?

I do.

yes
Jesus had more authority than when St. Peter preached.

Jesus does not have more authority than a writing breathed out by God:
they are the same authority.

not even Jesus can overturn a fact proclaimed as truth in Scripture.