Proof that sola scriptura is not true

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Glad you are enjoying our exchanges! I believe this is a good learning experience for us all.

but the “Pillar of Truth” stands…“gates shall not prevail against it”…meaning it will teach no error in regards to what is incontrovertibly true.

peace be with you
I’m curious as to how you derive this interpretation of the “gates of hell” quote, it is not one that I would derive from the context.
In fact, I would say that you are drawing a very long bow indeed, ascribing a meaning which is simply not there.
Jesus’ statement itself is interesting: some Church interpretations have it that Satan shall not prevail “over” the Church. But a gate is a defensive mechanism, not a means of offence.
A straight reading of that text leads to a meaning the opposite of which is generally held. Unless it has changed, the Church teaches that Satan is fighting against the Church and he can’t win. The text puts the shoe on the other foot: the Church is waging war against Satan, and he cannot sustain a defence (gates) against the Church.
Now, just what exactly is the “church”?
With this understanding of the “gates of hell” text, putting Satan on the defensive rather than the offensive, the battle is at a spiritual level rather than physical, since we on earth cannot wage physical war against Satan.
What will defeat Satan, other than Jesus Christ, the belief in, and acceptance of Him?
I would use this as another example of where Scripture has been turned around, misinterpreted even, to support a premise which is not even implied in the text.
It was Gregory the Great, Pope Gregory I (590-604) who laid down the four principles of exegesis, chief among them being that we should take the plain meaning before any other (if I have understood him correctly).
The plain meaning of “the gates of hell shall not prevail” is that the defence of hell shall not prevail against attack.
It is, to be sure, another line of thought, but one which to me is more consistent with the text and how we should understand it.
 
This leads to another thread…and I did mention we either need to create one or join one…“Jesus Church…where is it today?” Moreover, once that particular thread leads to where it really is today…SS will then be magnified to what it really is.
I agree, we have probably exhausted this discussion, evidenced by our tendency to stray from the main point.
Let me say in closing that the use of syllogisms, while undeniably useful in some contexts, falls short as a method of debate regarding theologies.
Syllogisms, by definition, deal only with simple facts beyond dispute. Syllogistic fallacies arise from both misuse of the discipline itself, and mistatements of fact.
Understanding of written language requires more than isolation of individual statements, as these can easily be misunderstood if taken out of context.
Take for example, Luke 12:51, where Jesus says, “Do you suppose that I came to give peace on earth? I tell you, not at all, but rather division.”
Read back over earlier posts stressing that Jesus insists on a unified Church, or that Jesus would not have used the Reformation to correct the errors of the Catholic Church at the time. How do you reconcile this?
Or how about Matthew 7:1, “Judge not lest you be judged”?
Some teach this as a proof text that we should not judge others. But Jesus clearly teaches that we must: “by their fruits you shall know them”, i.e. judge others by their actions.
The real meaning of Matthew 7:1, derived not just from the context of the adjunct paragraphs, but from other teachings scattered throughout Scripture, is that we should not be hypocritical in our judgements, that we shall be judged as we judge others, that our sins will be forgiven us as we forgive others.
The suggestion of a new thread, where is the Church today, is a good one.
But let all our debate continue in the spirit of love and truth, prepared always to understand our personal bias no matter from where it may derive, and accepting, at least in my opinion, that unity in Christ is more important that any other unity.
I would recommend James Sire’s book “Why Good Arguments Often Fail”, as a useful tool in arguing from Scripture, not that I claim any particular talent in that regard.
 
In an earlier post you asked how I would define “Sola Scriptura”. I apologise, it was not my intention to avoid answering, I just seem to have overlooked it amongst the many other issues, and thus shall answer it now.
In 2 Timothy 3, back up to verse 13, then read through to 17.
This passage refers to Holy Scriptures, nothing else, “which you have known from childhood (perhaps allegorical and well as literal), to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Jesus Christ”. All Scripture is from God, is profitable etc, that a man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Does this mean that Scripture contains everything that can be known? Clearly not.
Does this mean that only Scripture contains what we need to know for salvation? Hard to tell, it does not say.
Does this mean that Scripture is sufficient to be wise for salvation, that it provides all truth necessary? Probably so.
“Complete”, “thoroughly equipped”, these are words that brook no argument, and are difficult to misinterpret with a pure heart. Unfortunately, not all translations agree on wording, rendering “complete” as “proficient” or similar, so I can’t be sure what was originally intended. I have a soft spot for the King James version, I like the language, but acknowledge that this is not a Bible version sanctioned by the Catholic Church. The New Jerusalem Version, which is, renders verse 17 as “This is how someone who is dedicated to God becomes fully equipped and ready for any good work”.
Paraphrased, accurately I trust, keep what you have been taught and know to be true, the wisdom of Scripture will fully equip you for salvation”.
“Fully equipped” seems to agree with “complete and thoroughly equipped”, so it seems reasonable to accept the meaning that Scripture is, at the very least, sufficient.
Enter Tradition.
I have some trouble with Tradition. The Council of Trent declared “seeing clearly that this truth and discipline are contained in the written books and the unwritten traditions which, received by the Apostles from the mouth of Christ Himself, or from the Apostles themselves”.
Ok, but how long did these truths and disciplines remain unwritten, and how do we know that they originated with Jesus or the Apostles, or that they were passed on, orally, without alteration or extrapolated meaning?
Scripture is given by God: why would He leave out anything that was important for our salvation? Jesus gave to His contemporaries that which was needed for salvation then: why would there be other truths, yet to be revealed, for the generations to come?
We may contrast the OT with the NT here, there were truths not given to the Jews, but the Messiah was foretold. I find no similar theme in the NT, there is no prophecy that there was to be a third covenant, not even some appendices.
I accept Tradition where it agrees with Scripture, does not contradict Scripture in word or spirit, or where its provenance can be demonstrated as originating with Jesus Christ, the Word of God, the very being of Scripture. Some practices varied in the early Church until the Church pronounced on the subject, but the question must be asked, are they necessary for salvation? Certainly those issues mentioned in Scripture are, but what about those that are not? Without meaning to offend anyone, or pronounce on the subject one way or another, the issues of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, or the Assumption of Mary, these do not arise in Scripture.
… continued next post
 
… continued from previous:

Enter the Magisterium.
This brings with it the subject of “infallibility”, what it really means, where it applies, and where it doesn’t. That issue is way beyond our scope here, but it needs mentioning as it is central to Catholic belief in the authority of the Church. I shall try to be as brief as I can.
“Papal infallibility is distinct from inspiration. The pope’s infallible utterances are not inspired. For inspiration it is required that the writer or speaker be moved by God to write or speak, and be so guided by God that he expresses what God wishes to express and nothing more. God is the author of inspired utterances. He is not the author of papal definitions, but He guarantees them against error” (The Catholic Magisterium by Father Peter Joseph).
We need not deal with the issue of whether or not the Pope is guaranteed against error. As the issue is the sufficiency of Scripture, and by definition, Papal infallibility does not add to or claim to be, Scripture (Word of God), it does not address this issue, other than if the Pope, speaking ex cathedra, says that Scripture is not sufficient.

From the above definition, we may infer that Papal doctrines, so uttered, are not necessarily what God needs us to understand for salvation, otherwise all those who lived and died before the Papal pronouncement were short changed, and God being just and fair, are we to believe that He deliberately withheld necessary truths from previous generations?
I don’t believe so.
Thus the conundrum: the Pope, who is guaranteed against error, says that Scripture is not sufficient, but the Pope has pronounced on issues long after generations of Christians have gone to their graves, and have thus been deprived of essential truths necessary for their salvation.
One can’t have it both ways, and believing in a just and fair God, I cannot believe that He disadvantaged earlier generations, potentially condemning them to eternal damnation through lack of information, and thus I have to conclude that a statement that Scripture is insufficient must be false.
I perhaps have not answered your question directly, I have not delivered a concise definition of Sola Scriptura, but I am averse to such definitions as they are so easily misunderstood, and often debated without reference to the original intent of the author.
Hopefully, my explanations above will show you that I believe in the sufficiency of Holy Scripture for salvation, that I accept Traditions where they conform to Scripture, and that I am unsure of the Magisterium.
Yours in Christ.
 
Let me say in closing that the use of syllogisms, while undeniably useful in some contexts, falls short as a method of debate regarding theologies.
Syllogisms, by definition, deal only with simple facts beyond dispute. Syllogistic fallacies arise from both misuse of the discipline itself, and mistatements of fact.
As long as the T/F of the premises is agreed upon, like you said, “simple facts beyond dispute”…then “formal logic” can be applied in regards to theologies. A tool useful like Math for numbers…“formal logic” for T/F statements.

Which part of the syllogisms below fall short for you Wayne? Are we in agreement with the Premises?

Major Premise: Some M is P
Minor Premise: All M is S
Conclusion: Some S is P

Let Middle term = God breathed things
Let Predicate = sufficient
Let Subject = Scripture

Major Premise: Some God breathed things are sufficient
Minor Premise: All God breathed things are Scripture
Conclusion: Some Scripture is sufficient

If we all agree that both premises are false, then therefore conclusion is false. So the negation is true by the Law of Non-Contradiction…the Negation of the conclusion translates to, “For all Scripture is insufficient”

Here is yet another valid syllogism:

Disamis

Major Premise: Some M is P
Minor Premise: All M is S
Conclusion: Some S is P

Now,
Let middle term = Scripture
Let Predicate = sufficient
Let Subject = God breathed things

Major Premise: Some Scripture is sufficient
Minor Premise: All Scripture are God breathed things
Conclusion: Some God breathed things are sufficient

We all agree that the minor premise is TRUE, it is explicit in 2nd Tim…the major premise we proved to be false using the first Disamis. So the conclusion is FALSE…again, by the Law of Non-Contradiction, the negation is TRUE, meaning “All God breathed things are insufficient” is TRUE.
Understanding of written language requires more than isolation of individual statements, as these can easily be misunderstood if taken out of context.
I agree.
Take for example, Luke 12:51, where Jesus says, “Do you suppose that I came to give peace on earth? I tell you, not at all, but rather division.” Read back over earlier posts stressing that Jesus insists on a unified Church, or that Jesus would not have used the Reformation to correct the errors of the Catholic Church at the time. How do you reconcile this?
Here is a way out of it to avoid Jesus contradicting himself…Jesus is talking about Jews being divided…some believing that he is the Messiah and other believing that he is not and is a blasphemer.
Or how about Matthew 7:1, “Judge not lest you be judged”?
Some teach this as a proof text that we should not judge others. But Jesus clearly teaches that we must: “by their fruits you shall know them”, i.e. judge others by their actions. The real meaning of Matthew 7:1, derived not just from the context of the adjunct paragraphs, but from other teachings scattered throughout Scripture, is that we should not be hypocritical in our judgements, that we shall be judged as we judge others, that our sins will be forgiven us as we forgive others.
Gotta be careful here…how is the word “judge” being used? Again, to avoid contradiction…and we may need to look at the original greek…the word “judge” may correspond to “to punish”.
But let all our debate continue in the spirit of love and truth, prepared always to understand our personal bias no matter from where it may derive, and accepting, at least in my opinion, that unity in Christ is more important that any other unity.
I personally don’t call it a debating…it may seem that way…I call it sharing and learning.

“unity in Christ”…but now this leads to …What does it mean to for everyone to be “united in Christ”? Just believing? Then if so, what does it mean to just “believe”?

peace be with you
 
In the most simplest terms I can explain this, the three main reasons why sola scriptura is simply not true is…

a) …the Scriptures don’t actually make this claim about themselves…

…and…

b) …every time a truth of solar scriptura is presented, when asked further to explain their position, they always have to draw on resources “outside” the Scriptures in order to prove their position is true.

…and…

c)…the doctrine of sola scriptura results in the unnesessary duplicity of multiple contradicting doctrines all from the “same source”…

In short, the sola scriptura position ultimately refutes itself on closer examination.

There’s probably a few more reasons, but these three main points noted above fairly well knock the chaotic winds out of any argument for sola scriptura as far as I can tell.
 
If we all agree that both premises are false, then therefore conclusion is false. So the negation is true by the Law of Non-Contradiction…the Negation of the conclusion translates to, “For all Scripture is insufficient”
Your syllogisms are ok, it is your application of the Law of Non-Contradiction that is invalid.

The negation of the conclusion “Some Scripture is sufficient” is “SOME Scripture is insufficient”.
The Law of Contradiction, or Non-Contradiction (same thing), is that a proposition cannot be both true and untrue at the same time. In the statement, “Some Scripture is sufficient”, the proposition of the premise is “SOME Scripture”. Thus, the law says that “Some Scripture” cannot be both sufficient and insufficient. By changing the proposition, “Some Scripture” to “All Scripture”, you have changed the premise, and thus cannot draw any conclusion from it.

You have done the same thing with the second syllogism: the negation of “Some God breathed things are sufficient” is “Some God breathed things are insufficient”.

The propositions “Some” and “All” are not the same, and thus cannot be equated under the Law of Contradiction.

I trust this helps.
 
In the most simplest terms I can explain this, the three main reasons why sola scriptura is simply not true is…

a) …the Scriptures don’t actually make this claim about themselves…

…and…

b) …every time a truth of solar scriptura is presented, when asked further to explain their position, they always have to draw on resources “outside” the Scriptures in order to prove their position is true.

…and…

c)…the doctrine of sola scriptura results in the unnesessary duplicity of multiple contradicting doctrines all from the “same source”…

In short, the sola scriptura position ultimately refutes itself on closer examination.

There’s probably a few more reasons, but these three main points noted above fairly well knock the chaotic winds out of any argument for sola scriptura as far as I can tell.
What is your definition of sola scriptura?
 
The negation of the conclusion “Some Scripture is sufficient” is “SOME Scripture is insufficient”.
Wrong… read up on “Negation of Quantifiers” 2.1.9 here. Or just google “negation of Quantifiers” to read up on it.

If you have a source where it tells you otherwise in regards to “Negation of Quantifiers”…please post the link to the source so we may all read it for ourselves. Thanks.
The Law of Contradiction, or Non-Contradiction (same thing), is that a proposition cannot be both true and untrue at the same time. In the statement, “Some Scripture is sufficient”, the proposition of the premise is “SOME Scripture”. Thus, the law says that “Some Scripture” cannot be both sufficient and insufficient. By changing the proposition, “Some Scripture” to “All Scripture”, you have changed the premise, and thus cannot draw any conclusion from it.
Read up on Negation of Quantifiers.

Let us take the syllogism again…we all agree that

(false) Major Premise: Some God breathed things are sufficient
(false) Minor Premise: All God breathed things are Scripture
(false) Conclusion: Some Scripture is sufficient

If we all agree that both premises are false, then therefore conclusion is false. So the negation is true by the Law of Non-Contradiction…the Negation of the conclusion translates to, “For all Scripture is insufficient”

So for the conclusion to be true…both premises must be true:

(True) Negate Major Premise: All God breathed things are insufficient
(True) Negate Minor Premise: Some God breathed things are not Scripture
(True) Negate Conclusion: All Scripture is insufficient

Just applying valid “deductive reasoning” here…and like you said, this reasoning follows if we all agree on the premises to begin with. Do we all agree with all the major and minor premises?

peace be with you
 
What is your definition of sola scriptura?
Take your pick, since there’s generally no concensus on exactly what sola scriptura really means to begin with.

Consequently, since I don’t actually believe in sola scriptura, it’s not really my job to define it.

My responsibility toward an authentic search for God’s revealed truth, however, is to fairly examine the clearest claims presented by anyone who espouses some form of this view-- in order to determine, by God’s Holy Spirit, whether their claims are valid or not.

Regardless of which definition you use, every one of them fails upon closer scrutiny. 🙂
 
In the most simplest terms I can explain this, the three main reasons why sola scriptura is simply not true is…
a) …the Scriptures don’t actually make this claim about themselves…
Due to length, my response will take 3 posts, and for that I apologise, but I don’t see how I can make it shorter without ignoring important issues.

One of the problems of unsubstantiated assertions like that quoted above is that they exempt themselves from the burden of proof, it thus becomes incumbent upon the contrary case to find the proof to defeat the assertion. Well and good, we are up to the challenge.
To determine the truth or falsity of this assertion, we must examine Scripture to find out whether it does or does not make such a claim. We find a passage that does appear to make this claim in 2 Timothy 3:14:17:

“You must keep to what you have been taught and know to be true; remember who your teachers were, and how, ever since you were a child, you have known the holy scriptures -from these you can learn the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All scripture is inspired by God and useful for refuting error, for guiding people’s lives and teaching them to be upright. This is how someone who is dedicated to God becomes fully equipped and ready for any good work”.

The words “fully equipped” can sensibly be understood to mean “sufficient”, thus one can infer that Holy Scripture is sufficient to learn the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith. If Scripture is sufficient, then no other source of wisdom is necessary. That is not to say that other sources do not exist, simply that they are not necessary.
Catholic refutation often starts with the following statement: “2 Tim. 3:14 - Protestants usually use 2 Tim. 3:16-17 to prove that the Bible is the sole authority of God’s word. But examining these texts disproves their claim. Here, Paul appeals to apostolic tradition right before the Protestants’ often quoted verse 2 Tim. 3:16-17. Thus, there is an appeal to tradition before there is an appeal to the Scriptures, and Protestants generally ignore this fact.”
Note that I have not ignored 2 Timothy 3:14, far from it, I start with it because I believe that it reinforces the case. My reading of this passage is that “what you have been taught” is in fact, “holy scriptures”. I would be delighted to hear of any language comprehension study that would find cause to separate the two; if “what you have been taught” is not the holy scriptures referred to in the sentence, then what is it, and how would you derive that meaning?
Moving on, do we find other passages that refute, negate, or otherwise cause us to question? We know that sometimes a passage can be misinterpreted in isolation, but the meaning made clear when we examine related or parallel passages. The concept of Scripture interpreting Scripture is, I believe, not in contention, just the extent to which it can be applied.

The Catholic position is that 2 Timothy 3 does not teach sufficiency, even though the wording seems clear enough. To support that position, the Church uses other passages to explain why Scripture is not sufficient, in effect, Scripture interpreting Scripture. The absurdity of using Scripture to prove that Scripture is not sufficient seems to escape the logicians of the Church, but I’ll let that pass for now. What we must do is examine the passages that the Church quotes in refutation, and decide on their logical value and validity.

Let us start with these quoted parallel passages: James 1:4, Matthew 19:21, Colossians 1:28, and Colossians 4:12.

Are these really parallel?
… continued
 
Continued … Part 2
Are these really parallel?

2 Timothy 3 clearly relates to Scripture, I don’t think there is any debate on that subject, even though the Church tries to claim that it also invokes Tradition.

James 1:4 is counselling on the testing of faith producing endurance and strength of character. “My brothers, consider it a great joy when trials of many kinds come upon you, for you well know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance, and perseverance must complete its work so that you will become fully developed, complete, not deficient in any way”.

Matthew 19:21 is quoting Jesus regarding what is required to be perfect in God’s sight:
“ Jesus said, 'If you wish to be perfect, go and sell your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me”. There is a difference between perfection and sufficiency.

Colossians 1:28 refers to being perfect in relationship to Christ, and Colossians 4:12 simply asks that we pray to God asking Him to make us strong and perfect.

In Timothy, the Greek word used is exartizo, and in the other passages, teleios. Both words can be translated to “perfection”, which is why we see the wordings above, but from what I can understand regarding usage, exartizo has more to do with being fitted for a task, whereas teleios relates to personal maturity.

The word usage does suggest that the passages are not parallel, likewise the context; Timothy is talking about Scripture, James and Matthew about our behaviour, and Colossians about relationship and prayer. How anyone can make a case against the sufficiency of Scripture using these passages is quite beyond my understanding, particularly since, in quoting Scripture, they are relying on Scripture to make their case.
Another Catholic refutation is this: “Matt. 28:20 - “observe ALL I have commanded,” but, as we see in John 20:30; 21:25, not ALL Jesus taught is in Scripture. So there must be things outside of Scripture that we must observe. This disproves “Bible alone” theology.”
John 20:30 says “There were many other signs that Jesus worked in the sight of the disciples, but they are not recorded in this book”.
John 21:25 says, “There was much else that Jesus did; if it were written down in detail, I do not suppose the world itself would hold all the books that would be written”.
Both of these quotes relate to what Jesus did, not what He said, taught, or commanded (the word used in Matthew 28). The “signs” in John 20:30 are most likely miracles, and maybe John 21:25 is referring to the same things, but either way, neither of these passages supports the contention that “not ALL Jesus taught is in Scripture”. There is no mention of Jesus’ teachings, let alone any being left out.
Now put yourself in John’s shoes: would you leave out important teachings of Jesus, or would you simply avoid repetitions? Undoubtedly, in three years of public life, Jesus said and did the same things many times over; faithfully recording each and every instance would be unnecessarily laborious, particularly at a time when writing was such a chore. Besides, who would want to read repetitions of the same words and actions, what value would they offer?
The Catholic refutation, using these passages of John, is weak. If you think otherwise, show how these passages relate to Jesus’ teachings.
 
Continued … Part 3

Another Catholic refutation: “Luke 1:1-4 - Luke acknowledges that the faithful have already received the teachings of Christ, and is writing his Gospel only so that they “realize the certainty of the teachings you have received.” Luke writes to verify the oral tradition they already received.”

My response: true, Luke writes to verify the oral tradition they already received, his writings thus becoming Scripture. The word “verify” confirms that there is no difference between what was taught orally, and what was written, so how can anyone claim that this text supports the view that Tradition “adds” to Scripture? To my mind, it states the opposite case. If Luke meant that he was “adding” to oral tradition, he would have said so, but he did not, he said he was verifying it.

One last one Catholic refutation in this post: “Mark 16:15 - Jesus commands the apostles to “preach,” not write, and only three apostles wrote. The others who did not write were not less faithful to Jesus, because Jesus gave them no directive to write. There is no evidence in the Bible or elsewhere that Jesus intended the Bible to be sole authority of the Christian faith.”

My response: firstly, the last sentence “There is no evidence …etc” is a non sequitur, i.e. it does not follow from the previous statements. It is an unsupported statement that tries to prove itself by repetition, and is valueless as a logical argument.
Now, that Jesus commands the apostles to preach, not write, says nothing about the sufficiency or authority of written Scripture, nor does the faithfulness or otherwise of the apostles have anything to do with the sufficiency or authority of Scripture. The apostles who wrote, and the disciples who wrote for them, wrote so that they “realize the certainty of the teachings” as Luke is quoted. John says in 20:31, “These are recorded so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing this you may have life through his name”, and in 21:24, “This disciple is the one who vouches for these things and has written them down, and we know that his testimony is true”
The teachings of Jesus were written so that they may be faithfully recorded and passed on more easily, allowing the apostles and disciples to communicate over long distances without having to travel. In effect, they preached through their writings, Paul being particularly effective with this method.

The argument that “Jesus commands the apostles to preach, not write” as a refutation of the sufficiency of Scripture is absurd, Scripture is simply the written record of the apostles’ preaching.

In passing, one comment I would make regarding Catholic apologetics is the tendency to go for quantity over quality. In one reference article alone on this subject, there were 29 Scripture quotations purporting to refute sola scriptura, yet hardly any stood close examination. Multiple weak arguments do not aggregate to a strong case, quite the reverse. Logic is somewhat akin to the mathematics of measurement: every measurement method has an inherent error, and errors tend to compound, they seldom compensate. So too with arguments: the weakness of one cannot be overcome by restatement, nor reinforced by other weak arguments, sand as a foundation is still sand, no matter how much you use.

I could continue in this vein, but then I would be guilty of resorting to “quantity”. I have accepted the challenge to refute the unsubstantiated statement that “the Scriptures don’t actually make this claim about themselves”, have quoted a passage of Scripture that does purport to make that claim, and have refuted some refutations. If you believe that there are other Scripture passages that successfully refute the sufficiency of scripture, then present them for examination. If you believe that 2 Timothy 3:14-17 does not argue for sufficiency, then argue your case regarding that passage.
 
The RC religion claims that through their “infallible” authoritative structure—and by it alone, we can attain certain knowledge. But if such certainty were available, what need is there for faith? At this point you might reply, we have faith that our church (the RCC) is the one true church established by Jesus. Is this the faith that saves? Are we saved by trusting in a religion or by trusting God? The reason why Jesus and His followers were mocked (and always will be until He returns) is because everything we Christians believe…must ultimately be accepted on faith. The Scriptures need no earthly authority to make them what they already are. Scripture is what it is (God-breathed) regardless what any church or council may decide. Scripture was indeed given to us as our sole inerrant rule of faith just as it says in 2 Timothy 3:16-17. It is not inconsistent to trust that the bible is our sole inerrant rule of faith AND the canon is revealed by the very nature of what Scripture is. For these reasons, the “canon argument” that many RC’s are so fond of, is not a valid one.
***Hi, Nick Jones!

Are you insinuating that Christ made a BIG mistake by introducing an anti-synagogue that was really superfluous?

Are you saying that the Paraclete which He promised that would come to the Church was simply an energy of fire tongues which then disipated only to resurface in the 16th century?

Are you saying that the early Church is the only type that we should have: i.e.: no changes, no countering the multitude of heresies that arose, no defining Faith, God, Salvation?

Are you saying that when Jesus told the Apostles that they could not handle everything He needed to tell them but that He would send the other Paraclete to reveal the total Truth, He did not realy mean it?

Are you saying that when the Apostles deferred and comanded that all Christians deferred to the Church they simply meant “majority rules?”

And are you saying that the Catholic Church is not the Church of Chirst but every Tom, Harry or Jane that erects a “church” is representing Christ’s and the Apostles’ authority?

How do you propose we test the authority and authenticity of the 30,000+ Christian denominations that purport that they have the Holy Spirit’s direct revelation?.. or are they just automatically “in” since most of their common ground revolves around anti-Catholic doctrine?

Maran atha!

Angel

 
Understand Sola Scriptura was more about trying to get Rome back on track at a time when it was not as reputable as it should have been. A simple reading of the history of the Holy Roman Empire, particularly a secular rendering as opposed to the official Catholic version, would disturb most people. Even allowing for the bias of individual historians, there is enough there to help you understand why so many thought the Reformation necessary.
If you take the more general understanding of Sola Scriptura, that theology must not contradict the Canon of Scripture, and that any belief outside Scripture must have a demonstrable and credible provenance, I don’t see that as unreasonable.

God’s grace be with you.
***Hi, WayneTalbot!

The problem with sola Scriptura is that there’s no Biblical mandate to remove 7 of the original books from the Bible which was compiled in the 4th century, yet defenders of sola Scriptura reason that “good-intentioned” men had the right to revise the Canon which the early Church erroneously authorized; further, they see no problem with the various disagreements that arose immediately (short period of time) after the first revision; further still, they have no problems with the schisms that developed within the protestant movement.

You account for the Protestant’s schism from the Church as a necessary means to “Reformation,” yet, why are there so many reformations (I count each number of denominational church as a reformation) in existence and why do they seem to not cease as a new movement arises whenever there is strong disagreement amoungst “church” elders and “bishops?”

Clearly, Christians cannot serve Christ by simply going against the Catholic Church, and by continuing to embrace dissension and divisiness!

Maran atha!

Angel

 
Take your pick, since there’s generally no concensus on exactly what sola scriptura really means to begin with.

Consequently, since I don’t actually believe in sola scriptura, it’s not really my job to define it.

My responsibility toward an authentic search for God’s revealed truth, however, is to fairly examine the clearest claims presented by anyone who espouses some form of this view-- in order to determine, by God’s Holy Spirit, whether their claims are valid or not.

Regardless of which definition you use, every one of them fails upon closer scrutiny. 🙂
Since you claim its untrue you would know exactly what it is. So again i ask you, what do you mean by sola scriptura?
Who knows i may even agree with you.
 
I have referred to both “practice” and theology, as it was as much Church practice that so incensed some Reformists. So now, let us move from the purely theoretical, let me put these thoughts together in a practical example, where you can use “private interpretation” to adjudge Church behaviour, and decide for yourself whether you accept Papal authority in all things, or whether in all honesty, you believe it is right to question, and even to disagree. Be careful, you may find yourself taking the position of the Reformists, and arguing that certain practices are not Scriptural.
I could choose from many examples, but let us start with this scenario.
Consider yourself a Pope in the Middle Ages, you have some coinage in your coffers, and access to more through fund-raising, even if you won’t stoop to selling indulgences. You have a project in mind, to build a great cathedral, a city even, and have it decorated by the best painters and sculptors available, and you realise that the cost is going to be enormous. Do you choose to (a) build the cathedral, or (b) give the money to the poor?
Will building the most magnificent edifice in the world give glory to God, or to man?
Here are some Old Testament passages about temples past: Exodus 20:24-25, 1 Chronicles 22:2-19, 1 Chronicles 29:1-9, Ezra 1 – 7.
I guess the questions here are: are the OT instructions to the Jews applicable to Christians, does the New Testament make any reference to building temples in which the faithful worship, or is the focus on outreach, preaching the gospel to those who haven’t received God’s word. Where does Scripture lead us in evaluating the comfort of the faithful versus the needs of the poor?
Now consider yourself as the current Pope. You have before you a proposal to hold a World Youth Day in Sydney, Australia. You are advised that up to 500,000 will attend and that Sydney residents will be forced to live under emergency laws, authorities having the power to conduct body searches, confiscate vehicles, and evict people from events. A whole industry will be disrupted for three months because you will take over their premises. The project will cost hundreds of millions, directly to the Church, to the attendees, and to the people and industry you will displace from their normal lives, and you will only be preaching to the converted anyway.
Do you choose to (a) go ahead with the event, or (b) decide to spend the money on helping the poor and spreading the Gospel to those people who have yet to receive it.
Justify your decision based on what you think Jesus would do.
This then, is perhaps the crux of centering theology and practice on Scripture: what would Jesus say or do?
1 Thessalonians 5:21, “Test all things; hold fast what is good”.
I know that it can be disconcerting to question the actions, decisions, and practices of the Church in general and the Pope in particular, and I would not judge the motives of those who hold to a different view, but in the scenarios quoted above, what would you do, and how would it sit with your conscience?
Do you now have some empathy with the Reformists?
Finally, let me rebuke those who use the term “dirty laundry”. It is emotive and pejorative, and hardly worthy of these pages. Pointing out past errors is not in the sense that all have sinned, it relates to a pattern of belief and behaviour, and that is an entirely different thing. Sin essentially comes from the mind (and no, I am not going to debate that here, we can do that later with reference to the works of Augustine, Jerome, and others), and persistent behaviour evidences where the mind is at.
Think of some early Church behaviours from that perspective, not as single acts of sin that we are all predisposed to.
***Hi, WayneTalbot!

I am not excusing the behavior of the Church, past or present, but I simply wanted to ask if you have noticed that in the “enlightened” times after the reformation most, if not all, the “churches” have risen from a poor small building to huge multiplexes and that the “pastors” seem to need several personal mansions in order to better lead their congregations to the Lord?

Continuing to look at faults is simply seeing the speck on the other’s eye while ignoring the blotch on one’s own!

Maran atha!

Angel***
 
But ISTM that the main priority of RC apologists in these sorts of forums, is to honor the RCC and to “prove” that we ought to place our faith in her (Rome). But as you can imagine, this, to many non Catholic Christians, seems to be putting one’s cart ahead of the horse. Instead of a priory placing our faith in some particular religion or particular religious institution, it is infinitely better to make the worship of God our primary focus and to trust entirely on Him to lead you to the church that honors Him.
***Hi, Nick Jones!

Let’s see if I understand you correctly…

Not the Catholic Church but any other “church” is that church that honors Him or do you mean the “visible church of God” (aka the Jehovah Witnesses) or is it the Church of Christ of the latter days saints or is it the new age church that got the latest revelations from the Holy Spirit which is correcting the centuries of ambiguous teachings against homosexuality or is it the match-box ministry…?

If we would truly humble ourselves to Christ we would hear Him tells us to be one–no not in “spirit,” “mind,” “heart,” “intentions…” One as taught by Paul, One God, One Lord, One Spirit (Holy Spirit), One Gospel!

Maran atha!

Angel

 
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, **throughly furnished **unto all good works. (2 Timothy 3:16-17 KJV)

Scripture is sufficient…and certainly it is profitable.
***Hi, Cling2Cross!

…it certainly is–according to some revelation that came through hundreds of years after the Lord Himself said it wasn’t (St. John 14 through 16).

Maran atha!

Angel***
 
***… or are they just automatically “in” since most of their common ground revolves around anti-Catholic doctrine?

Did you really mean that, that “most of their common ground revolves around anti-Catholic doctrine” ???

I can’t say that I am personally acquainted with the 30,000+ denominations of which you speak, but of the ones I know, excluding the poly-theistics like the Mormons, and those that claim divine revelation through some new version of Scripture like the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the common ground is mostly Scripture and the Apostle’s Creed.
Now, if you are saying that the bulk of Catholic doctrine is separate and distinct from Scripture and the Apostle’s Creed, you could be opening a whole new field of discussion, and a very interesting one at that.
I shall take the more conservative view, and consider that you were just exagerrating.
 
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