Proof that sola scriptura is not true

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  1. Definitions:
    Fundamental – Of profound spiritual importance. It should be noted that recognizing a belief as fundamental does not imply its veracity. It only means that eternal salvation may hinge upon the acceptance or rejection of the belief. For example, the belief “God does not exist” is fundamental, but not true. If a church is not willing to compromise its teachings on a particular belief for the sake of unity, then the church holds that belief to be fundamental.
    Scripture – The 66 books of the Protestant Bible.
    **Sola scriptura **– The belief that Scripture is the sole rule and norm of the Christian faith, and that all beliefs which are both fundamental and true are taught in this Scripture.
  2. By the definition of sola scriptura, no particular belief can have all three of the following characteristics: not taught in Scripture, fundamental, and true. In other words, if it’s not taught in Scripture, then it can’t be a fundamental truth.
  3. The definition of sola scriptura presents a trilemma for every belief that is not taught in Scripture. A particular belief that is not taught in Scripture must be exactly one of the following:
    a. True, but not fundamental, or
    b. Fundamental, but not true, or
    c. Neither true nor fundamental.
  4. The following beliefs, none of which is taught in Scripture, demonstrate the sola scriptura trilemma in action:
    a. “Force equals mass times acceleration on planet Earth.” (true, but not fundamental)
    b. “Man is inherently good.” (fundamental, but not true)
    c. “My dog sings The Star Spangled Banner." (neither true nor fundamental)
  5. The following belief is not taught in Scripture: “Scripture is the sole rule and norm of the Christian faith.” In other words, sola scriptura, as we have defined it here, is not taught in Scripture – not even implicitly.
  6. All Christians agree that sola scriptura is fundamental. Catholics believe that it is fundamental and false; Protestants believe that it is fundamental and true.
  7. Since sola scriptura is not taught in scripture and all Christians agree that sola scriptura is fundamental, then by the definition of sola scriptura, sola scriptura must be (c) fundamental, but not true.
QED

Backup for statement #5 (the only possible point of contention)

• No theologian before Martin Luther argued that sola scriptura was taught in scripture. (I’m not even sure that ML made such a claim.) One must, at the very least, conclude from this that sola scriptura is not obviously taught in scripture.

• Steve Brown, Presbyterian Bible teacher, in his audio series Biblical Systematic Theology, calls sola scriptura a “presupposition.” He explicitly states that it cannot be derived from any source, including scripture.

• The two oft-cited “proof texts”, 2 Tim 3:16-17 and 1 Cor 4:6, are inadequate. Both texts refer to the Old Testament. If these texts are arguments for the sufficiency of scripture, then they are arguments for the sufficiency of the Old Testament, which would be a most unfortunate conclusion for Christianity.
In 2 Tim 3:16-17, “All Scripture” doesn’t mean “only Scripture”. For 1 Cor 4:6, the Ryrie Study Bible from Moody Press offers the interpretation “that you might learn by us to live faithfully according to the Scriptures.” In other words, “exceed” or “go beyond” in this context seems to mean “transgress”.

• In scripture, oral transmission of the Word of God is valued along with written transmission (2 Thess 2:15, 2 Tim 1:13-14, 2:2, Phil 4:9, among others).

• Tradition, which may be written or oral, is valued in scripture (1 Cor 11:2, 2 Thess 2:15, 2 Thess 3:6). Wherever corrupt tradition is denounced, it is qualified as “traditions of man” or “your traditions” (Colossians 2:8, Matthew 15:3, Mark 7:8-13)

• Scripture tells us that the church is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15).

• Scripture itself does not tell us what scripture is, namely the 66 books of the Protestant Bible. This is a gross oversight if God really intended Scripture to be the sole rule and norm of the Christian faith. I’m not looking for a table of contents here. In the New Testament, I would have been satisfied with a verse to the effect of: “Heed and preserve the writings of the apostles as they will guide you in all truth.” But the fact is that the Holy Spirit used the mechanism of early church tradition to define Holy Scripture. With respect to the Old Testament, there is simply not enough information in scripture alone to discern whether the apocrypha ought to be considered inspired scripture. I know this because Protestant arguments for excluding the apocrypha are based entirely on tradition, with a series of statements like “Person A with authority B in the year C marginalized these documents for reasons D.” If a decent argument could be made from scripture alone, why isn’t it done?
  • an ex-Lutheran
 
While there isn’t a codified definition of sola scriptura you should probably start with one that mentions that scripture is the sole inerrant rule of faith.

Saying that scripture is simply the sole rule and norm is sort of setting up a straw man.
 
While there isn’t a codified definition of sola scriptura you should probably start with one that mentions that scripture is the sole inerrant rule of faith.

Saying that scripture is simply the sole rule and norm is sort of setting up a straw man.
She missed out the word “inerrant”. Does that change the substance of her post?
 
While she may have missed a couple of terms in her argument, I have to say I believe it is well-argued and consistent within itself. I’m favorably impressed; well done!
 
“Proof that sola scriptura is not true”

Wouldn’t be much simpler to note that while there were Christians in the 1st century there wasn’t a Bible until the 4th?

Even the earliest component parts of the NT were written down mid to late 1st century. So what did those first Christian do? It couldn’t have been Bible study.
 
“Proof that sola scriptura is not true”

Wouldn’t be much simpler to note that while there were Christians in the 1st century there wasn’t a Bible until the 4th?

Even the earliest component parts of the NT were written down mid to late 1st century. So what did those first Christian do? It couldn’t have been Bible study.
This is a bit overstated. There was an Old Testament and the teahcing of the Apostles and Jesus as well as the Apostles letters were widely circulated and rad as authoritative (making it scripture) in the Litrugy. It was not as if the Gospels and Apostolic teaching were not being spread by letter. They were. But you are right that a definate canon was not set down yet. I just caution against giving the impression that the local Bishops and Churches were not reading Apostolic letters or were unfamiliar with writings that would leter make up the canon. Afte rall one of the criteria used was discerning which books and letter, beyond the Old Tetsament were widely used and regarded as Scripture. For this to happen they had to have been dispersed among the faithful since the 1st centur and even during the Apostles lifetime.

Dave
 
Oops. There is a typo in statement number 7. Should read: “…sola scriptura must be (b) fundamental, but not true.”
 
While there isn’t a codified definition of sola scriptura you should probably start with one that mentions that scripture is the sole inerrant rule of faith.

Saying that scripture is simply the sole rule and norm is sort of setting up a straw man.
Good suggestion. I’ll include “inerrant” in future versions, since it’s true. However, it does not change the substance of the arguement.
 
Good suggestion. I’ll include “inerrant” in future versions, since it’s true. However, it does not change the substance of the arguement.
Don’t you guys believe in the material sufficiency of scripture>?

If you do, doesn’t that make you agree with your item 2?
 
Wouldn’t be much simpler to note that while there were Christians in the 1st century there wasn’t a Bible until the 4th?
Even the earliest component parts of the NT were written down mid to late 1st century. So what did those first Christian do? It couldn’t have been Bible study.
Well one could argue then that the Septuagint was available, and possibly parts of the NT. It’s slippery but there is still a lot of Bible there. Of course this argument ignores availability of the text and the believer’s ability to even read it.

The problem with this is (as we’ve seen in other threads) that since it gives a foothold the above argument can be twist out into a never ending cork screw of one-sided scholarship and revisionist history.

By showing that the doctrine itself is not held up by its own standard the OP goes strait for the lifeline of the doctrine. So now the followers of that doctrine must either:

A) Acknowledge that extra-canonical doctrines must be acknowledged at some level.
B) Change the doctrine itself (which we are seeing happening)
C) Ackowledge that the doctrine is incorrect.
 
Well one could argue then that the Septuagint was available, and possibly parts of the NT. It’s slippery but there is still a lot of Bible there. Of course this argument ignores availability of the text and the believer’s ability to even read it.
Neither the availability of the texts or the believer’s ability to read have any bearing on SS being true or false.

Could you explain how you think these two issues negatively impact SS?
 
Neither the availability of the texts or the believer’s ability to read have any bearing on SS being true or false.
Could you explain how you think these two issues negatively impact SS?
Directly they don’t that is true. However, if SS is true then God set up a system of doctrinal authority which very few people had access too. By this standard God developed a system of Faith that he was purposefully excluding the vast majority of the human population from having access too. Does that sound like God?

It gets worse if you consider that if the Catholic Bible is correct then it was several centuries into this new faith system before God revealed the full truth of the faith.

If you follow the Protestant Bible then it took God 1500 years before he let people in on the big picture. Again does that sound like a reasonable God?

So while I agree that my statement doesn’t directly mean that SS is untrue, I was speaking from a practical standpoint that if God wanted to give us the Gospel SS would have been a clunky and unjust way to do it.
 
Hey jenneyhay!

I, like rcwhiteh, agree that you present a well structured summary against sola scriptura.

Small nitpick: in statement #7 you say sola scripture must be (c) fundamental, but not true. I believe that answer as you listed in statement #3 was supposed to be (b).
 
Directly they don’t that is true. However, if SS is true then God set up a system of doctrinal authority which very few people had access too. By this standard God developed a system of Faith that he was purposefully excluding the vast majority of the human population from having access too. Does that sound like God?

It gets worse if you consider that if the Catholic Bible is correct then it was several centuries into this new faith system before God revealed the full truth of the faith.

If you follow the Protestant Bible then it took God 1500 years before he let people in on the big picture. Again does that sound like a reasonable God?

So while I agree that my statement doesn’t directly mean that SS is untrue, I was speaking from a practical standpoint that if God wanted to give us the Gospel SS would have been a clunky and unjust way to do it.
This is a little off topic but I thought it wasn’t until Trent that the Catholic church dogmatically (sp?) settled the issue of the canon? The other councils before that I thought were regarded as provisional or provincial, not sure of the correct term.

The reason I bring this up is that I have heard, don’t have proof, that cardinal Cajetan who questioned Luther rejected what you guys refer to as the deuterocanonicals.
 
🙂 OK, my knowledge of this is that the text we have today was set n the early centuries and really never changed. During Trent it was upheld officially due to the fact that Luther espoused a different canon. As with most Church Councils the Church usually doesn’t say much about doctrine until there is a reason too if that makes sense.

As for the Cardinal in question I honestly can’t say one way or the other as I’m not familiar with him so forgive me that. It could be true though. Remember that until the church officially declares it is completely OK to have differeing opinions on doctrine. Jerome himself had changes of heart on the canonicity of some books in the Bible. Luther himself who at first dispised James eventually came to admire the book.

While we Chrisitians can be a stubburn lot we’re not robots there will always be disagreement amongst individuals.

Anyway as you stated we’re moving off the OP’s topic and I apologize for the side bar. I appreciate the dialogue Reformed
 
Don’t you guys believe in the material sufficiency of scripture>?

If you do, doesn’t that make you agree with your item 2?
I agree with you - good pick up. I would say that it does make us agree with item 2. But that doesnt make me embrace the doctrine of sola scriptura. :nope: It makes me realize that the problem lies in the stated definition of sola scriptura. It is more than simply believing that it “is the sole (inerrant) rule and norm of the Christian faith, and that all beliefs which are both fundamental and true are taught in this Scripture.” While I mostly agree with that definition, there is something very important missing - it is also believing that there is no visible church authority to properly, finally and infallibly interpret Scripture. That is very big as it is a meaningless statement to say that Scripture contains all fundamental truth of the faith while not explicitly stating that it expresses it in a clear, unambiguous manner so that all who read it will come to know the fundamental truths it contains. It is also very important because certain Truths are simply not explicitly stated in sacred Scripture and without an authority to end the discussion of, say, the Trinity, then there can be no determination of what is “fundamental” and when a particular truth (Divinity of Jesus) has become “fundamental” and binding on all Christians. It just becomes completely unworkable…

Bump repaired? 😉

Phil
 
I agree with you - good pick up. I would say that it does make us agree with item 2. But that doesnt make me embrace the doctrine of sola scriptura. :nope: It makes me realize that the problem lies in the stated definition of sola scriptura. It is more than simply believing that it “is the sole (inerrant) rule and norm of the Christian faith, and that all beliefs which are both fundamental and true are taught in this Scripture.” While I mostly agree with that definition, there is something very important missing - it is also believing that there is no visible church authority to properly, finally and infallibly interpret Scripture. That is very big as it is a meaningless statement to say that Scripture contains all fundamental truth of the faith while not explicitly stating that it expresses it in a clear, unambiguous manner so that all who read it will come to know the fundamental truths it contains. It is also very important because certain Truths are simply not explicitly stated in sacred Scripture and without an authority to end the discussion of, say, the Trinity, then there can be no determination of what is “fundamental” and when a particular truth (Divinity of Jesus) has become “fundamental” and binding on all Christians. It just becomes completely unworkable…

Bump repaired? 😉

Phil
Bump repaired quite nicely.

I’ll comment more later.
 
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