Prop 8 found to be unconstitutional...struck down!

[Suudy]

The reason you got “emotion” as you call it is because you approached it with zero respect. You think its so out of the realm of possibility for a same sex relationship to actually be a relationship so you compare it with loving a toaster or a tablespoon.

The offense is in the offended, not the perceived offendor.

But I do see how people can be offended. And this is why I approach the issue by pointing out the two aspects of marriage: unitive and genitive.

Absolutely gay “marriage” is unitive. It binds two people together. It is brought together out of love.

But it lacks the genitive but its very nature. Procreation is not, and cannot, be the natural end of marriage.

Note that when I use the term “natural” I mean its natural end, not what occurs in nature. Only a man and a woman have a natural end towards procreation. A particular defect, such as infertility or impotence, does not change the nature of the relationship. It is still naturally ordered towards procreation.

Thus the absurdity of gay “marriage” lies in the fact that it fails to meet the genitive nature of marriage. And saying that someone “marrying” a dog, a spoon, or the planet Venus, is not less absurd. It is a difference in degree, but not in kind.

 

[bosonhiggs]

There aren’t differences? Really?

Do I have a right to bear children, as a man? After all, there are no differences between genders.

Do I have a right to enter a women’s restroom? After all, there are no differences betwen genders.

As a man, do I have a right refuse to enter the draft? After all, there are no differnces between genders.

There are differences. And they already are enforced. Why is marriage any different?

You have the right to adopt children, you can hire a surrogate even.

That is a silly comparison, but yes, you do have the right to enter one if you so wish. The women in the restroom may not take kindly to it, however.

Yes, you have the right to refuse to enter the draft. Many do. I, personally, believe that women should have to sign up as well - many countries require men and women to register.

 

[irishpatrick]

There aren’t differences? Really?

Do I have a right to bear children, as a man? After all, there are no differences between genders.

Do I have a right to enter a women’s restroom? After all, there are no differences betwen genders.

As a man, do I have a right refuse to enter the draft? After all, there are no differnces between genders.

There are differences. And they already are enforced. Why is marriage any different?

All good points, yet the left is working hard to erase all that.

Men will be able to bear children through science.

Restrooms will one day be neutral…no genders.

Men and women will be in any draft.

Etc…

 

[Via_Dolorosa]

Would it have satified liberals if there were a constitutional amendment to make Jim Crow laws permanent?

Are you familiar with the Jim Crow laws?

 

[LucyK]

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Sure, created equal by God. Yet, in human society it is impossible to have full equality and full liberty. Please, as I said, think it through.

Here is just one rock solid unimpeachable example:

*

Say in the near future same sex marriage becomes the law of the land. Gays, by federal law, have the right to marry. Churches MUST abide by federal discrimation laws. If a Catholic Church says they refuse to marry a gay couple wanting to marry in its church after the federal laws are passed, than the couple will be legally able to take that Catholic Church to court and force the Church to marry that couple. The Catholic Church in that case would have two real options: (1) comply with the court mandate to marry the couple, which obviously would be a full breach of the faith it holds; (2) Close its doors and go underground or at least go private.

Now, even if that Church went private and dumped tax exempt status, the feds would still be able to go after it just like is happening with the Boy Scouts and other organizations. Someone will find a way to charge the Catholic Church with hate crimes.​

*

**

My fear is not that the Church will be forced to marry two men or two women. My fear is that the church will be forced to compromise in areas of employment. (i.e. schoolteachers, counselors)*

 

[irishpatrick]

You have the right to adopt children, you can hire a surrogate even.

That is a silly comparison, but yes, you do have the right to enter one if you so wish. The women in the restroom may not take kindly to it, however.

Yes, you have the right to refuse to enter the draft. Many do. I, personally, believe that women should have to sign up as well - many countries require men and women to register.

One day you might get your dream…a world in which there are no genders, everyone has the same plumbing given to them by science. Sounds like something you’d be thrilled with.

 

[Dale_M]

Actually, the hysteria is on the liberal side. I challenged posters in another thread on the logical reasons for denying someone the right to marry an inanimate object, and all I got was emotion.

People who aren’t used to discussions with persons whose opinions differ from their own often have trouble coping.

However, there is a lot of “The sky is falling” rhetoric in this thread.

Besides, liberals have no problem comparing a homosexual relationship to a heterosexual relationship. I’ve never seen a liberal care about offending anyone with that ridiculous comparison.

Of course, that could be turned around to say “I’ve never seen a conservative care about offending anyone with the the ridiculous notion that a homosexual relationship is not equal to a heterosexual relationship.”

Civil discourse requires politeness, to be sure. But also a willingness to accommodate each others views without insisting that the other person is beyond the pale.

 

[exoflare]

That is a silly comparison, but yes, you do have the right to enter (an opposite-sex restroom) if you so wish.

Yeah, you can just tell that to the police.

The women in the restroom may not take kindly to it, however.

Why on earth not? How closed-minded of them.

 

[irishpatrick]

---

irishpatrick;6913512:

Sure, created equal by God. Yet, in human society it is impossible to have full equality and full liberty. Please, as I said, think it through.

Here is just one rock solid unimpeachable example:

*

Say in the near future same sex marriage becomes the law of the land. Gays, by federal law, have the right to marry. Churches MUST abide by federal discrimation laws. If a Catholic Church says they refuse to marry a gay couple wanting to marry in its church after the federal laws are passed, than the couple will be legally able to take that Catholic Church to court and force the Church to marry that couple. The Catholic Church in that case would have two real options: (1) comply with the court mandate to marry the couple, which obviously would be a full breach of the faith it holds; (2) Close its doors and go underground or at least go private.

Now, even if that Church went private and dumped tax exempt status, the feds would still be able to go after it just like is happening with the Boy Scouts and other organizations. Someone will find a way to charge the Catholic Church with hate crimes.​

*

---

My fear is not that the Church will be forced to marry two men or two women. My fear is that the church will be forced to compromise in areas of employment. (i.e. schoolteachers, counselors)

The Church will be forced to do many things and some churches will give-in. The RCC will not, which will mean they will have to go underground. I predict at this rate it will happen within 20-30 years.

 

[Suudy]

Are you familiar with the Jim Crow laws?

Note that I already admitted by error in typing. Continue reading through the thread and you’ll see I’ve abdicated on that statement.

 

[bosonhiggs]

One day you might get your dream…a world in which there are no genders, everyone has the same plumbing given to them by science. Sounds like something you’d be thrilled with.

I dream of a world of equality and people capable of empathy and rational thought. Unfortunately, that is something I will never see in my lifetime.

 

[irishpatrick]

People who aren’t used to discussions with persons whose opinions differ from their own often have trouble coping.

However, there is a lot of “The sky is falling” rhetoric in this thread.

Of course, that could be turned around to say “I’ve never seen a conservative care about offending anyone with the the ridiculous notion that a homosexual relationship is not equal to a heterosexual relationship.”

Is it rhetoric, or are we seeing the signs of the perverbial sky falling? I say we are, you likely say no. Time will tell.

 

[bosonhiggs]

Yeah, you can just tell that to the police.

Why on earth not? How closed-minded of them.

I know right? There are stalls for privacy, after all!

on a serious note, the example was rather ridiculous.

 

[missmorgan389]

I predict that if Christians in very large numbers do not wake up, and very soon, we will be a place where the Church has gone underground and hate crimes laws will apply to almost everything a person might say in public (someone can always find offense with any opinion). Hate crimes laws will wash away the constitution. The nation 20 years from now, if it continues as it is, will be unrecognizable to thos who lived up to the 70s and perhaps early 80s.

Very true. I’m thinking the same thing. There’s just too many things going on in this world. If this simple sacrament of marriage can be disobeyed, imagine how easily the rest of them can go astray. It’s sad, but a new generation is upon us, one of strength for the cause of God, and not the cause of the world.

 

[Good_News_1]

I dream of a world of equality and people capable of empathy and rational thought.

And we all know the best way to get that is to type empty platitudes, in an accusatory posture, on an internet messageboard.

 

[exoflare]

Of course, that could be turned around to say “I’ve never seen a conservative care about offending anyone with the the ridiculous notion that a homosexual relationship is not equal to a heterosexual relationship.”

The difference is that conservatives generally don’t hold up “offending people” as some intrinsic evil in and of itself like liberals do, so there wouldn’t be the same hypocrisy involved.

 

[Suudy]

You have the right to adopt children, you can hire a surrogate even.

But surrogate relationships are not enforceable. I cannot force a woman to give me a child she has borne if she decided to keep it even after paying for all prenatal care, birth, and other costs. Note also that it would be illicit to do so (surrogate).

That is a silly comparison, but yes, you do have the right to enter one if you so wish. The women in the restroom may not take kindly to it, however.

Of course I have the “right”. I also have the “right” to murder my neighbor, though his family “may not take kindy to it.” The point is that the government prohibits men from entering women’s restrooms. Why shouldn’t the governmetn prohibit men and men or women and women from getting married?

Yes, you have the right to refuse to enter the draft. Many do.

Again, I have the same “right” to refuse to enter the draft as I have the same “right” to drive on the left side of the road. Both are prohibited by law. Why should gay “marriage” be any different?

I, personally, believe that women should have to sign up as well - many countries require men and women to register.

Great. But the point is that men and women are already treated differently under the law. Unless you completely erase the differentiation between men and women, you cannot claim that there is no difference between genders.

 

[irishpatrick]

I dream of a world of equality and people capable of empathy and rational thought. Unfortunately, that is something I will never see in my lifetime.

The desire for absolute equality on earth has no rational basis–it is not possible to have that and expect to also have liberty. Our fallen nature prevents us from ever being able to enjoy true equality in this life unless we give-up our freedoms for the sake of equality. That is the nature of this life.

One day you will see that as clearly as others do. People died willingly for our liberty, they understood how great that gift is. People often talk about how we are equal before God, which is true, but they forget that one of the greatest gifts God gave us was our freedom/liberty to make our own choices, to make our own way through this life. God values freedom so very much that He does not stop us from doing things that will harm out bodies or our souls–THAT is how much God wants us to be FREE!

Equality of birth and as people is a given…in this life the only real way to live is to live a free life…working towards equality will erase our freedoms…they are already disappearing.

Have a good night.

 

[bosonhiggs]

And we all know the best way to get that is to type empty platitudes, in an accusatory posture, on an internet messageboard.

Accusatory? How so?

Good thing I’m involved in my community, doing things like, ya know, protesting Prop 8.

 

[Good_News_1]

The desire for equality on earth has no rational basis

Equality before the law has a rational basis in God’s equal love for each of us, and simple respect.

–it is not possible to have that and expect to also have liberty.

This is a false dichotomy, and an insult to the ideals of both liberty and equality.