Prop 8 found to be unconstitutional...struck down!

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Hmmm?

Really? Are you referring to the US? If so, could you please provide a reference?
I’m trying to remember the suit. But there was a lady, in CA I think, that tried to claim that when her dogs attacked a neighbor, she wasn’t responsible since they were their own “persons” and were responsible for their own behavior. And I think a judge bought it.

I’m looking for it. So far I’m not having much luck with my Google skills. Perhaps someone else remembers.

I also seem to recall PETA filing a lawsuit on behalf of a dog, naming the dog as a party to the lawsuit. But I’m having trouble finding that as well.

Perhaps I’m way off. Anyone remember these incidents?
 
The term marriage refers to a man and woman who commit to having kids and raising them together. It is based on the natural complementary of the sexes.
What of older couples beyond child-bearing age? How are they to commit to having kids and raising them together? :confused:
Older people are bombarded with viagra and other enhancement product commercials.
Is this supposed to be bad? Would you deny a man with E.D. the ability to have marital relations with his wife? :confused:
 
What’s interesting here is that I don’t really read many Catholics who argue this from a constitutional perspective.

Keep in mind that in the scope of this decision, bans on same-sex marriage are only because the voters believe that marriage between a man and a woman is superior to marriage between two people of the same gender.

And that’s basically what the position of the Catholic Church is, right? For primarily religious reasons, gay marriage is bad. It’s a sin that has a grave possibility of sending you to hell. It’s a crime against nature and the way God intended the world to be, and so on.

Unfortunately, the judge ruled in this case that that doesn’t form a rational basis for denying the fundamental right of marriage under the constitution.

And there’s a reason those rights exist. They’re protected in the constitution, and they’re very hard to change – and for good reason. As a nation, we don’t want a tyranny of the majority taking away rights from the oppressed minority. That’s against the highest law of the land, and we’ve made it very hard to take away their fundamental rights – like the right to vote, the right to marry, the right to equal protection under the law, the right to reasonable privacy, freedom of religion, and so on.

And you guys should accept that. Accept that you want to restrict a particular subset of the population from a fundamental right that everyone else has – the right to enter into a lawful marriage, with all the rights, privileges, and responsibilities, the right to adopt, and so on – but work to change it where you’re *supposed *to strip people of some of their fundamental rights. There are channels to that, and they can be found in a new constitutional amendment to the U.S. Constitution.
When I went into the ballot box to vote against same sex marriage, I saw no wording – and never heard at any time – that I thought, or should think, that heterosexual marriage was “superior” to same sex marriage.

No one had the right to same sex marriage in this country - ever. So to say anyone is stripping away anything is simply irrational.

There is no fundamental right to marry. I know a number of single older guys. What the Church is properly objecting to is turning gay sex into an Institution.

I’m not convinced that much of a commitment is involved:

nytimes.com/2010/01/29/us/29sfmetro.html

Primarily religious reasons? The male and female anatomy are naturally designed for each other. The Church begins its objections with Natural Law and real biology.

God bless,
Ed
 
Well said, and that is exactly why I believe the RCC in the USA will be forced underground because it will NOT EVER concede to marrying same sex couples.
No religion in the US will be forced to change their religious practices. It would be a violation of the First Amendment. The courts have ruled on this many times.
 
Have you seen any gay couples on Divorce Court?
Do you know how Ellen Degeneres is doing with her married partner?

I knew a family of 8 siblings that were married and one of them was gay and was married to this same sex partner. As years went by there were many divorces among the siblings and the only that held its own was the gay marriage.

Does that prove my point?
None of what you said proves anything.
 
How about Catholics? Muslims? Firefighters? Athletes? Military service-members?

They all celebrate what they do.

Example: Being Catholic is all about what you do. You go to Church, you believe in Catholicism, you participate in the sacraments, and so on. Being a firefighter is all about what you do – you fight fires. Being an athlete is all about performing on the field. Serving in the military is all about what you do.

The only reason Peter Kreeft decides to point out that gays are the only sinners who seem to revel in their sin is because he thinks that being gay and engaging in homosexual relationships is wrong. If he believed it was okay, he’d have no problem with gay pride than he does pride in being a military service-member, or athlete, or whatever.

And, of course, being gay has a whole different layer on top of everything, seeing as how the “actions” – engaging in romantic and sexual relations with members of the same sex – begin with an internal attraction that is often associated with an identity. Oftentimes the recognition of the attraction and acceptance of the identity precede any kind of actual sexual activity. So, in that way, it’s a bit different than a fire fighter or a Catholic, and it’s not about “actions” at all, except for the action of coming out.
Of course it’s about actions, the State is attempting to Institutionalize gay sex.

God bless,
Ed
 
Lest people think I am off the deep-end regarding loss of liberties, let us not forget the well known case of Catholic Charities of Boston who was forced by law to provide adoptions to same sex couples. That ruling, of course, went directly against Catholic teaching, yet the law was applied to all institutions (including churches).
Only if Catholic Charities of Boston wanted government funding of their adoption program.

As many have observed here at CAF, if you take the King’s coin, you are the King’s man.

All Catholic Charities had to do is discontinue taking government funding for their adoption program. But they decided it wasn’t worth their own money to keep the program going.
 
Okay, then. So Catholics think that when a man or a woman believes that he or she is in a committed sexual relationship with another man or woman, that that’s always bad.

If you want to restrict the rights of a class because of religion, you can do that – but you’ll need an amendment to the U.S. Constitution.
The objection from the Catholic Church always begins with Natural Law and real biology.

This is not a civil rights issue.

God bless,
Ed
 
No one is entitled to rights for doing wrong.
True. In fact, the 1st Amendment thing could turn into a very sticky wicket in some situations, ones that are more black-and-white than this one.

Suppose the demon-worship of the Aztecs or the Phoenicians came back into style, complete with cutting out hearts or throwing infants into a furnace. We’d either have to modify the 1st or go the way of those civilizations.

In a crazy world like this, it could come to that, though I can already hear some people snickering at the idea.
 
No religion in the US will be forced to change their religious practices. It would be a violation of the First Amendment. The courts have ruled on this many times.
They risk the potential of losing tax exempt status. See United States v Bob Jones University.

Although some people here have already lauded such a move.

It’s coming.
 
I will just state my opinion on this real quick and then I have to get off for the night. With the reference to Gay Pride etc, it is not about celebrating that we have sex with members of the same sex. It is not about having pride about our actions.

It is about having in pride in who we are fully and completely and that includes our sexuality. Our actions do not define us because there are homosexuals out there who are 100% chaste and yet they are proud of every part of them including their sexuality. The same way I am sure you are proud of yourself completely, right? And since sexuality is a HUGE part of who everyone is, you can say that you are in a certain sense you are proud of your sexuality.

Now I just want to point out that I DO NOT advocate or promote the “norm” of gay pride celebrations because they are often filled with debauchery.
Do you think a Catholic school or a Catholic organization should have the right to refuse to hire you based on the fact that you are a practicing homosexual?
 
What of older couples beyond child-bearing age? How are they to commit to having kids and raising them together? :confused:
As stated, it is because of the complementary nature of the sexes. Old age is an individual defect, not a difference in nature. An older woman is still a woman. An older man is still a man. An impotent man is still a man.

The point is the foundation of marriage is twofold: unitive and genitive. Both homosexual and heterosexual couples are capable of uniting, thus fulfilling the unitive nature. But only a heterosexual couple is naturally ordered towards procreation, and thus the only type of relationship capable of fulfilling the genitive role. Now, just because an individual has a particular defect, does not change the natural end towards which they are ordered. Heterosexual couples are naturally ordered towards procreation, regardless of any defects that make it impossible in a particular case.

So older couples beyond child-bearing age commit to having kids by their very nature. In fact, I would argue that it would be improper for an older couple beyond child-bearing age to marry because they know they couldn’t have children.
 
  1. Probably, and who cares as long as the logistics can be worked out equitably.
  2. Very doubtful. We can’t even manage to lower the drinking age.
  3. Absolutely not, animals cannot consent.
Animals can’t consent? So what? A Zoo (zooophilia) wrote on another forum that he does not want to be persecuted or prosecuted. “Honest, your honor, no one is being harmed here.” Consent? Who needs consent? “Hey man. If it feels good, do it.”

God bless,
Ed
 
The objection from the Catholic Church always begins with Natural Law and real biology.
Then I’m sure you’re aware that there are a number of other species on the planet that practice homosexuality and bisexuality, and that in animal communities, sex serves many social functions.

Nothing like a little “real biology,” eh?
 
our founding documents say: “All men have been endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights” - that is a principle directly from the Bible used by Jews and Christians.
Eh… no. That is a very deist statement. It invokes the idea of natural law and natural rights inherent to humanity, but not necessarily a God of the Bible or Torah. The declaration is a statement of the Enlightenment, which is hardly a reaffirmation of traditional religion.
 
When will judges legislating from the bench ever stop?

Why do the millions of people that voted in favor of this just sit quietly by on the sidelines while this ONE man takes it away…do something about it…don’t just sit around whining. It is time the people stood up and took this country back…take it back the way it use to be when voting mattered and we didn’t have dictators sitting on wooden stools telling us what to do…
OK. Can you offer a few concrete ideas? Supreme Court justices are appointed and then they need to be approved. Of course, today that means if you’re not for abortion you are kicked out as a possible candidate.

God bless,
Ed
 
Yeah but just because certain genuine rights do exist (I don’t think anyone was disputing that anyway :confused:) doesn’t give people a license to call absolutely anything else they want a “right” with no rational basis.
I beg to differ. The same amendment granting religious freedom grants people a license to call absolutely anything else they want a “right”. The issue of it being a right is to be debated in the public square.

Who is to determine what rights are genuine in a secular democracy? I submit the answer is definitively not the Catholic, Mormon or Baptist churches. God does not directly speak to us or our leaders.
 
Then I’m sure you’re aware that there are a number of other species on the planet that practice homosexuality and bisexuality, and that in animal communities, sex serves many social functions.

Nothing like a little “real biology,” eh?
I think you misunderstand the Catholic concept of what natural law and “real biology are”.

Start reading here:

sacred-texts.com/chr/aquinas/summa/index.htm

You’ll pick it up somewhere around IIae, chapter 91.

Enjoy!
 
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